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Why we cant have endgame content


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3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

It's not just "a handfull" is the problem.  It's the bulk of players.  You need to get used to the idea the vast majority of players have no interest in the content you desire.

This is the reason why 'endgame' only satisfy few players. DE is not going to invest more time on just few players who seek difficulty or rewards when they have everything in the game. 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Corvid:

Perhaps the experienced players shouldn't expect every game to cater to their desires.

Let the casuals have this one.

What is a casual for you? Someone who play max. 10 hours per week? Would be nice to know otherwise I don't know what am I. My playtime is in the near of the 3,5k hours and I started in August 2013 (if not even earlier). That would be ~1,42 hours per day or 9,95hours per week (still less than 10^^). Am I a casual? Or am I something different. I have the knowledge and experience of a veteran/ nerd (or however you want to call me), but my play time per day/ week says different. 

I think you are mixing a casual player with a newbie/ midler. (seriously how are the people called who aren't vet, but also aren't newbies anymore?) And like I already explained many pages before. Every newbie becomes one day a veteran/ experience player. No one is capable to stop the automatic learning process. The only difference is that some people are slower and other are faster.

Imo the only thing a casual player can be compared are non gamers and gamers. The non gamers don't like to play video games. Casual like to play video games. And a gamer is someone who says that gaming is just a hobby for him/ her. And most importantl they are able to play a game with heart and soul. (Casuals and gamers!)

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9 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

(seriously how are the people called who aren't vet, but also aren't newbies anymore?)

I guess the best definition is Mid-core, dedicated enough to the game to keep playing and decently skilled but not to the point where they snap their fingers and the game crumples.

I can clear anything that is thrown at me (except soloing Profit-taker because ^&#% that fight) but I have no desire to hit that bleeding edge 6 billion DPS limit for example.

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On 2020-05-03 at 12:31 AM, Marmelade said:

Imo they should probably leave gian as easy as it is and fighters as a whole all in all you spend resources to one shot them (few of them actually use anti missiles lures)

What DE should do is to add Eximus Frigates\Cruisers with a size between crewships and fighters , like you press 3 to delete fighters but have to dogfight a Frigate depleting it's hp and destroying it armaments a.k.a weapon nodes , shield nodes , engines. (without forced need of main cannon like crewships do)

Just give DE great ideas as Scot said they first balance out mode as a whole then will do missions and other stuff , don't forget game started 7 years ago also from just 1 corpus tileset.

Preach

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2 hours ago, Corvid said:

I give this idea 3 weeks tops before players find a way to trivialise it, and we end up back where we started.

Poorer balance and built in dr along with staus prevents a lot of cheese within that realm

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17 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

What is a casual for you? Someone who play max. 10 hours per week? Would be nice to know otherwise I don't know what am I. My playtime is in the near of the 3,5k hours and I started in August 2013 (if not even earlier). That would be ~1,42 hours per day or 9,95hours per week (still less than 10^^). Am I a casual? Or am I something different. I have the knowledge and experience of a veteran/ nerd (or however you want to call me), but my play time per day/ week says different. 

I think you are mixing a casual player with a newbie/ midler. (seriously how are the people called who aren't vet, but also aren't newbies anymore?) And like I already explained many pages before. Every newbie becomes one day a veteran/ experience player. No one is capable to stop the automatic learning process. The only difference is that some people are slower and other are faster.

Imo the only thing a casual player can be compared are non gamers and gamers. The non gamers don't like to play video games. Casual like to play video games. And a gamer is someone who says that gaming is just a hobby for him/ her. And most importantl they are able to play a game with heart and soul. (Casuals and gamers!)

People like to use the "casual" term as an easy label to slap on players, often using it in a pejorative way to convey laziness, ignorance, lack of experience and what not, which is of course wrong.

The casual term is also commonly applied to players who only enjoy a chill/easy/relaxing playing environment, as opposed to a challenging/stressful one, which they will typically call "annoying" because, you know, it sounds better than "this is too hard and/or too time consuming for me and therefore I can't be bothered". 

Regardless which label you feel fits best, the real problem arises when casual players, loosely defined by someone who isn't willing or able to put effort into something ( learning/researching, acquiring player skills, grinding, etc ), ends up influencing the devs in order to water down content so that so that the little effort they are willing/able to put is enough to experience said content in whatever they consider to be a "timely fashion".

This of course becomes a problem to players who do enjoy the added challenge. Having to build your player skills, getting experience, figuring out best tactics/strategies to apply, planing you progress, grinding for the best equipment, feeling that you are progressing and being rewarded by your efforts, and finally being able to "beat that boss" (or whatever content) this all feels good. And it only feels that good when there's some effort involved.

When the devs water it down so much to appease the casual player, a lot of this appeal goes away since you can do everything pretty much effortlessly, and this sense of accomplishment goes away.

I guess what I mean is, it shouldn't make any difference being a casual or not, as long as you ( as a "casual" ) don't mind potentially taking months to finish some content, while non casuals will do it in a couple weeks. Sadly, this is not the case, lots of casual players do mind, and they are very vocal at it. They want that shiny new thing and they want it now. Especially if there's MR involved in the case of Warframe.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that Warframe over the last years (3 years I think?) has been drifting more and more towards appealing to this casual style of game play, leaving nothing for the non casuals to engage with. It becomes simply a farming game, not much more.

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This is how ridicule and boring current "endgame" looks like now. There is no dynamics, movement or even interest other than just camping in a corner seeing big red numbers. That is not even good game design in any standards. DE sidelined enemy design, A.I. and enemy variation replacing it with the crutch of higher damage, shields, armor and health. It is sloppy design to say the least. 

If ESO, Arbitrations where crowded with new enemy types with diverse weapons/load outs/A.I. and some boss fights in the middle then at least those would be considerable material for 'endgame'. Looks like intrinsic game play (players play for items) took priority over extrinsic game play (players play because is fun). For better or worse these modes becomes flat at some point without any interesting event after two hours doing the same thing over and over. Since there are an income of new players, DE is not forced to implement any type of satisfying 'endgame' just to appease veterans. DE can simply run without them since the number of new players is way bigger than the number of veterans in the game. New players are the ones who stay longer in the game getting things done.  

Providing fun challenge was done in games like Titan Fall 2 in a special PVE mode Frontier. It was a fair success popularizing the game. Rail Jack was seen as a "veteran attraction" for few months making them think that such content was intended for them due to the high wall grinding requirements. Right now the mode became more accessible to new players and sophomores. DE goes for a wider audience over a small segment of users who seek challenge on activities that gear check them with high armor shield health bullet sponges. 

The reality of 'endgame' is unlikely to happen for War Frame as time goes by. One of those chances was the idea of Solar Rails. With Rail jack and Arch Wings dark sectors may have a second chance. Setting up the Solar Rail justified the Dojo and the clans. This was a team activity in the game with the chance of going somewhere. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

This is further exacerbated by the fact that Warframe over the last years has been drifting more and more towards appealing to this casual style of game play, leaving nothing for the non casuals to engage with. It becomes simply a farming game, not much more.

True. 

My initial post was exactly on that point. DE doesn't need end game since they have new players. For them is easier the design of more features than having a tough hard work designing satisfying engaging experiences for seasoned players. The latest exclusion of raids hinted us that seasoned players are not DE's interest. Only two percent where engaged in the Arcane market of "Energize, Fury, Aegis, Guardian, Avenger" set farming. Law of Retribution and Jorda's Verdict passed away. 

War Frame became exactly what you described a dumb farming game for seasoned players. 

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17 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

There is nothing in the game that requires you to squad up, and only a handful of activities exist where there is a clear advantage on going with a squad and from those, even less where actual co-op coordination make sense to exist, so people go with the "more or less" (usual PUbs)

DE made their own bed in this regard, it's no surprise.

But from those activities where there IS in fact an advantage with squading up and even coordinating, you will see that the number of players doing that is actually much larger within the scope of said activity.

TL;DR Not all activities should be measured by the same measuring stick; If you build it, they will come

There is no mission type where you get better profit when playing Solo then Co-op. Try to look at the game from Devs PoE as their main money income, not only for themselves but to keep WF alive, and not from players one. 

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Off topic responses, if you want to derail, hijack the thread or start arguments, PM the messages. This is simply plain trolling with the intention to throw away the thread conversation. If you continue this, I'll report to the moderators. 

Said completely unironically in a response that is itself completely off-topic and disruptive of the thread, after literal dozens of posts that themselves hijacked conversation and actively impeded discussion. How about you follow your own advice, and take your personal grievances to PMs.

What is all the funnier about this is that SneakyErvin is in fact trying to reorient discussion towards some more productive space, by explaining what kind of game Warframe is. Warframe isn't a MOBA, nor is it a RTS, nor is it a game of chess. Treating it as such, and applying definitions in the wrong context of those games, as opposed to the actual definitions of endgame typically used for MMOs, makes for similarly wrong and irrelevant conclusions, which in turn makes it impossible to have a common discussion. As can be seen, most of the people discussing here seem to have a shared notion of what it means to have endgame in a game in an ongoing state of development, as endgame content is in fact a staple and even an essential feature of most multiplayer games that follow that model. FFXIV, for example, not only has endgame content, but multiple tiers of it, with Ultimate raids in particular being geared to require immense amounts of time to prepare and run them. On top of that, those raids specifically scale to the players' power levels, ensuring that they provide a consistent level of challenge no matter how much the players get to subsequently raise their levels with future content. Thus, there are ways of implementing endgame durably, even in games that constantly update themselves with new content. One can debate whether that kind of content is appropriate for Warframe, whether it's the priority players make it out to be, and so on, all of which can lead to constructive discussion, but denying the very existence or possibility of such content is a non-starter.

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

There is no mission type where you get better profit when playing Solo then Co-op. Try to look at the game from Devs PoE as their main money income, not only for themselves but to keep WF alive, and not from players one. 

While I get what you are saying, P&L is in the eye of the beholder.

Profit is based on the notion of Return on Investment and is not always material.

For me, on typical missions, there is more ROI doing things solo, even when the fiscal rewards might be less, I feel like I have to invest less of my emotional resources.

IME, one of the main things that trip up people is the ability for a game mode to contain more than one player automatically means it should, simply because 'multiplayer'.

WF gives the option for multiple players, rather than forcing it, like a raid built around Tank/2xDPS/Healer does.

As a solo player, I spend more time and money on the game. If I was forced to group, like the MSQ for FF for example, I would stop playing and paying, like I did there.

In this game, I am sure DE could get and/or has the numbers on how many solo vs. group missions are played, it would be interesting to see.

In the end, multiplayer games generally appeal to and are playable by people like me that have no desire to deal with other humans while we play, much to the chagrin of the extroverted gamers that think people like me ruin games and should be forced to deal with other humans during my video game time.

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1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

While I get what you are saying, P&L is in the eye of the beholder.

Profit is based on the notion of Return on Investment and is not always material.

For me, on typical missions, there is more ROI doing things solo, even when the fiscal rewards might be less, I feel like I have to invest less of my emotional resources.

IME, one of the main things that trip up people is the ability for a game mode to contain more than one player automatically means it should, simply because 'multiplayer'.

WF gives the option for multiple players, rather than forcing it, like a raid built around Tank/2xDPS/Healer does.

As a solo player, I spend more time and money on the game. If I was forced to group, like the MSQ for FF for example, I would stop playing and paying, like I did there.

In this game, I am sure DE could get and/or has the numbers on how many solo vs. group missions are played, it would be interesting to see.

In the end, multiplayer games generally appeal to and are playable by people like me that have no desire to deal with other humans while we play, much to the chagrin of the extroverted gamers that think people like me ruin games and should be forced to deal with other humans during my video game time.

You should learn how f2p games earn money first, then we can speak why Solo players in other games near similar to WF are not welcome. I also try to figure out why DE is trying to make from WF “junkyard” of Solo players incoming from another games. Nobody is forced you to do anything, you downloaded Co-op game so play it Co-op, you don’t like it, just leave, nobody will cry because nobody knows you in game.

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54 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

As can be seen, most of the people discussing here seem to have a shared notion of what it means to have endgame in a game in an ongoing state of development, as endgame content is in fact a staple and even an essential feature of most multiplayer games that follow that model. FFXIV, for example, not only has endgame content, but multiple tiers of it, with Ultimate raids in particular being geared to require immense amounts of time to prepare and run them. On top of that, those raids specifically scale to the players' power levels, ensuring that they provide a consistent level of challenge no matter how much the players get to subsequently raise their levels with future content. Thus, there are ways of implementing endgame durably, even in games that constantly update themselves with new content. One can debate whether that kind of content is appropriate for Warframe, whether it's the priority players make it out to be, and so on, all of which can lead to constructive discussion, but denying the very existence or possibility of such content is a non-starter.

 

Few attempts at 'endgame' happened. We had the dark sectors and Solar Rails. In 2015 they went off or had no further support. The mode had the intended purpose of a conquest and an activity for clans and dojo expansions. Many of us waited for that but the project was shelved and buried over the years. The problem that War Frame confronts is the constant addition of content and new items that must, somehow, fit in the scheme of the game. Somehow the 'endgame' shifts towards other activities or personal players interest. Few of these items gets downgraded over time and even frames unlucky enough takes heavy strokes like Limbo and Khora. At least Khora got back the healing Venari. Scarlet spear threw away the Arcane market and of course battered a bit the Eidolons. Many pursued 'endgame' selling the Arcanes doing 4x3 and 5x3 Eidolon runs. Many wanted a slice of that action upgrading their Warframe for the 'aspiration gaming' of becoming an Arcane Merchant. 

All of the sudden variables changes and the activities for seasoned players shifts. No one knows for sure where 'this endgame' goes next. The question here is, does War Frame can sustain itself without it? Seems so. DE is targeting new players absorbing the loss of Seasoned players that leaves the game. Leader Boards are gone, Raids are gone, Eidolon's Arcane Market is almost gone. What is left is Liches (an interpretation of Dark Sectors), ESO and Arbitration. When seasoned players have everything in their arsenal there is no reason at all to go back doing Liches, ESO or Arbitrations. These mode exists only for gear check gates. For this long seasoned player the game looses steam and leave. For the new player, he gets a wide set of activities to do without tough grinds or gear checks.  

Riven market and Kuva survival was a good attempt. But not everybody is interested rolling and selling god roll Rivens in the market. That type of 'endgame' is not that interesting in terms of game play other than daily farms doing Kuva Fortress or Night Wave missions. After few months doing the same the whole experience becomes a bore more than something exciting to do in the game. 

Crota, Atheon (Glass Chamber) and Orix (Taken King) where good skill test, team work and gear check. Where do we see this in War Frame? What activity does that at the same time when Eidolos, Profit Taker, Rail Jack and Exploiter Orb can be solo'ed with a fair build and good modded set of weapons? All these activities shift giving the false impression that the game never had 'endgame' in the first place. Well, the activities are not static, a good thing, but the game doesn't have a true challenging stress test engaging experience that puts player into a serious hassle. 

This is why for me there is no need to seek any enterprise 'endgame related' in the first place. This game is just a farming game. For those who wants more than that, this game isn't for the intended purposes of seeking a harder challenge. You are free to settle any type of end game in it by cutting off your mods in the Warframe and the weapons. "endgame" goes more with the player interest than an intended design made by the developers. People where preparing themselves for Atheon because it had good rewards and progression in the game. It was one of the best activities in it. Then the Taken King took that position with less success. 

War Frame is not hard. People may get the info in youtube work with patience and achieve the intended goal in it through time gates and fair gear checks. DE should not focus on endgame at all. I rather see them work on the conclusion of Railjack details, Duviri's Paradox and few chapters in the New War. I would have more interest on solo quests, quality of life in the game and a robust experience than stress test attempts that failed over time. 

If we where going to recapture a good endgame experience, if any, I think we should go back to Solar Rails and competition between Clans. At least clans will gain back their meaning and the aspiration of having better drop chance tables for those clan members who dominates a large portion of the map, imo. 

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

FFXIV, for example, not only has endgame content, but multiple tiers of it, with Ultimate raids in particular being geared to require immense amounts of time to prepare and run them. On top of that, those raids specifically scale to the players' power levels, ensuring that they provide a consistent level of challenge no matter how much the players get to subsequently raise their levels with future content

We don't have the so called power level though, considering our level 30 tenno murdering enemies beyond our level (level 30 vs level 9999) I don't think tiers will be making difference and I'm pretty sure our madlads in this community will cheese the top tier in less than 24 hours

In FF14 it works because it uses the traditional level system, we don't have that in Warframe and not to mention any kind of slightly threatening enemy will be dismissed as "unfair", "broken", "cheap" or "annoying" so what can we say?

I'm happy with our current system though, since I can still use my braton to solo level 5 lich mission without problem so I'm afraid it will become obsolete if we use the traditional level system

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11 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

This game is just a farming game

So is Diablo 3 - in both Warframe and Diablo 3 you farm gear to be better at farming.

What separates them, is at least in Diablo 3 you could 'test' your gear/build in Greater Rifts and push it to the limit. 

 

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

You should learn how f2p games earn money first, then we can speak why Solo players in other games near similar to WF are not welcome. I also try to figure out why DE is trying to make from WF “junkyard” of Solo players incoming from another games. Nobody is forced you to do anything, you downloaded Co-op game so play it Co-op, you don’t like it, just leave, nobody will cry because nobody knows you in game.

That is a very ... odd tangent...

So, you are just attacking me because I play the game and spend money, solo?

That I am not welcome?

I think DE would not agree, this game can be played solo just fine.

There are a ton of multiplayer aspects to the game that solo players can interact with and everyone profits, without ever having to go on a mission with other people.

I am well-aware how these games make money, been in business for a while, had friends in the game biz at all levels...they make money when I give them money...simple.

As I said, I spend more because I can remain a basically solo player, I would not stay or spend if I could not...you say this is WF bringing in 'junkyard' players from other games, what, you don't want people to play WF over other games and give them money?

This is one of the most off-the-handle rants I have seen in a while...just because I play solo, have fun, and give DE money, I am somehow the bad guy for doing it solo?

And yes, just like when I leave this game at some point, like I have left others games, no one will care, why would they care about what game I choose to play? Are you trying to imply that I somehow don't have friends because I play games solo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

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We can't have "end game" because people keep on insisting that grind isles are healthy and should be end game.

If you want an alternative "hot take" : Because people have allergy to anything that is not with auto group finder and get pissy about the notion that they need to group up with people from either clan, recruit chat or other social circles.

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2 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

So is Diablo 3 - in both Warframe and Diablo 3 you farm gear to be better at farming.

What separates them, is at least in Diablo 3 you could 'test' your gear/build in Greater Rifts and push it to the limit. 

 

Of course. True. 

De is being politically correct on not to beat hard the player or make the player feel incompetent so often. This is a 'playing safe' policy so the player continues in the cycle. Sometimes DE must get 'naughty' and beat the player's ass more often. I won't mind if some set of Liches throws my frame into the rocks due to the Brammas they have. At least I would respect them when they unexpectedly joins the mission. 

When the game invites to a challenge pushing the limit of your gear, built AND skills such content is more suited for 'end game'. The player needs sometimes, not always, have their ass beat hard so the perpetual 'power fantasy game breaks'. Few good challenges won't hurt the game. Everything else can continue working with the intended purposes. 

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8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

This is why for me there is no need to seek any enterprise 'endgame related' in the first place. This game is just a farming game. For those who wants more than that, this game isn't for the intended purposes of seeking a harder challenge.

Except a lot of players clearly do want a challenge, and driving them away because you personally don't believe the game should even have some bit of content aimed at that isn't reasonable. Even DE wants to add challenge, particularly since their past attempts at endgame have shown that farming only goes so far. Creating content around limited rewards means that there is no more reason to play once those rewards are obtained, and we can obtain rewards pretty quickly. Seeing as there is an increasingly large demand for endgame, one the developers are willing to honor, it should be worth looking into how to implement that, even if it should probably not take the form of PvP or tiny content islands.

32 minutes ago, 844448 said:

We don't have the so called power level though, considering our level 30 tenno murdering enemies beyond our level (level 30 vs level 9999) I don't think tiers will be making difference and I'm pretty sure our madlads in this community will cheese the top tier in less than 24 hours

Agreed, which is why I think that before we can start talking about implementing endgame, we need to talk about how the game can present us a challenge, period. The problem right now is that our abilities can completely remove enemy agency, and thereby remove all gameplay from the game, without much the game can do to counter us short of nullifying our abilities. Until that changes, no endgame will truly provide the challenge players crave.

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il y a 3 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

When the game invites to a challenge pushing the limit of your gear, built AND skills such content is more suited for 'end game'. The player needs sometimes, not always, have their ass beat hard so the perpetual 'power fantasy game breaks'. Few good challenges won't hurt the game. Everything else can continue working with the intended purposes. 

Warframe needs some places where you can get your a** kicked if you are not well prepared or if you do not master a proper build. 

But, imagine, DE will release a challenging game mode based on the current power state of some powerful builds. As there is not progression based on ilevel, the next new endgame can only be as difficult as the previous one. Or only fit to few of the latest weapons. And once again, how can this be healthy for Warframe? 

I keep thinking that what warframe needs is the ability to provide difficulty in every existing game mode before trying to create a content that will please the players only as long as they will be attracted by the rewards. 

Why are we asking for 1 single game mode that will bring some provisional challenge when challenge should be a thing no matter what part of the game you play. 

Warframe certainly don't need a game mode that will be the main activity that every player will want to reach as fast as possible and never look back at everything else in the game.

 

Btw, I haven't seen anyone talking about the rift like feature we will have with the next update. Any thought on this?

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23 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Why are we asking for 1 single game mode that will bring some provisional challenge when challenge should be a thing no matter what part of the game you play.

Not everyone wants challenge, some want to faceroll everything and that's fine. I personally want something more while not taking away what others like.

24 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Btw, I haven't seen anyone talking about the rift like feature we will have with the next update. Any thought on this?

I'm reserving judgement and hypothesizing until I see it. DE has shown what they consider 'difficult' is far different than what most consider difficult.  

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il y a 1 minute, Vit0Corleone a dit :

Of course note. This what we make of end game, in the absence of one 😉

To be honest, I thought we reached a conclusion multiple times, but it's still going. Good luck for the next 50 pages of whatever you guys are doing.

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