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Why we cant have endgame content


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1 minute ago, STUVash said:

What you and I want don't really weight in comparison my dear Aldain.

Oh I know, I just figured I'd answer the mostly rhetorical question for the sake of posterity.

I do that a lot solely out of boredom.

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17 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Pretty much agree, though enemy variety is something I think we need a bit more of...currently even discounting the fact that everything dies in seconds a Heavy Gunner isn't severely different from a Lancer in terms of design, whereas a Nox has different behaviors from a traditional ground unit.

A better varied selection of enemies would be a good step forward, maybe not a first step, but a step that might come after either the Ability one or the damage system (the ability one in particular due to how much can be turned off completely).

Makes sense but the enemy needs some love. We got plenty for seven years. 

If we want to make War Frame stay relevant in the next generation, something must captivate these new players other than a power fantasy game that only performs gear checks, time gates and grind walls. The game should give me something to be there other than checkpoint rewards.  

Impressive enemies invites curiosity and tries to convey more flexibility. 

Warframes uses the level in a vertical manner because they do wall hugs, wall runs and many other parkour abilities. Our advantage over any enemy is how we use the context of the level. That is what makes us superior against them. Our speed and dexterity. 

Enemies should counter that with intelligence, equipment, load outs, jet packs, vehicles and artillery. 

Edited by Felsagger
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Because the requirements it takes to succeed in endgame are too much for the new wave of players that dominate the community. It may surprise many people, but the game is more complex than most others. For many vets, they've learned the complexity, but most people are incapable of this. It's a sad truth that people just are not capable of stuff that comes easy for others.

The ratio of this is small though, meaning that the rest of the people who have no interest in high level activities simply don't want to struggle, a lack of motivation to learn, and accept that they are not good yet, but have things to learn. Combine with a general lack of experience to gain the mechanical skill of aiming, parkour, etc. You are left with a mass of players, who may have the potential to reach endgame with experience in it, but have no reason to and no desire.

Back in the early days, you were almost forced to experience the higher levels due to void keys. Nowadays, nobody has the experience nor the necessity to gain experience. DE understands that even if you add high level content, there will be no use. A small community will play it. Endurance running is dead. Those that continue to go deep into the hours of the game are playing a hollow shell of a once great achievement.

Warframe is not meant for this anymore and it's this very reason that many are leaving. If you wanna play a game that rewards you for your intelligence, gaming skills, and dedication,pick up another game or develop your own. That part of warframe is gone. It's like a gym with only treadmills.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Back in the early days, you were almost forced to experience the higher levels due to void keys. Nowadays, nobody has the experience nor the necessity to gain experience. DE understands that even if you add high level content, there will be no use. A small community will play it. Endurance running is dead. Those that continue to go deep into the hours of the game are playing a hollow shell of a once great achievement.

 

Void keys bad, relics good.

On a side note did you see the exergis clip?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Because the requirements it takes to succeed in endgame are too much for the new wave of players that dominate the community. It may surprise many people, but the game is more complex than most others. For many vets, they've learned the complexity, but most people are incapable of this. It's a sad truth that people just are not capable of stuff that comes easy for others.

The ratio of this is small though, meaning that the rest of the people who have no interest in high level activities simply don't want to struggle, a lack of motivation to learn, and accept that they are not good yet, but have things to learn. Combine with a general lack of experience to gain the mechanical skill of aiming, parkour, etc. You are left with a mass of players, who may have the potential to reach endgame with experience in it, but have no reason to and no desire.

Back in the early days, you were almost forced to experience the higher levels due to void keys. Nowadays, nobody has the experience nor the necessity to gain experience. DE understands that even if you add high level content, there will be no use. A small community will play it. Endurance running is dead. Those that continue to go deep into the hours of the game are playing a hollow shell of a once great achievement.

Warframe is not meant for this anymore and it's this very reason that many are leaving. If you wanna play a game that rewards you for your intelligence, gaming skills, and dedication,pick up another game or develop your own. That part of warframe is gone. It's like a gym with only treadmills.

 

Thank you. 

 

The most important part of this post is this phrase, pay attention to it: "REWARDS YOU FOR YOUR INTELLIGENCE". Anyone knows what those words means? Yes you do.  

I'm going blunt with this so be advised. 

When any game treats me (yes, I'm ONLY talking about myself here so don't try to take offence) like a less fortunate intellectual subject without any form of cognitive intelligence, such game is destined to decline. A game must value intelligence, speed skill, discern skill, analysis on short periods of time, variable adaptable learning curve and game mechanics and dynamics on the go. 

The toolkit set that the game has allows me to do such things but there are no circumstances where I can exercise my repertoire. How could I ever go into deep combat when I never had the chance to test my intelligence against the parameters of perseverance, precision, position, preservation, priority and preference? How can I give my back to extrinsic game play in a game that gives me all the tools to do it? Should I get satisfied with only intrinsic game play, time gates, gear check gates, RNG and grind walls? Really? 

Why people leave? Because the game treats people like consuming clueless addicted kids. That's how I felt sometimes. A game should at least demands some intelligence and wits throughout the game play. In a PVP game mistakes are NOT forgiven. Each mistake receives an uncanny penalty or punishment. This game must, at least, punish some clumsiness and unawareness of the surroundings. 

If I want to have Pachinko as 'endgame' then I simply play Pachinko. If I want to be like 'mister gamble here' then I play gambling games like River. A video game should provide a balance of skill base and probability base loot. Skill must be rewarded over luck. This is why we can't get a clear vision of what 'endgame' should be. This is what makes War Frame paddles in circles. 

What makes people stay? The story, the lore, the content of enemies, the content of place, the content new game play ingredients that enhances the traverse through the levels and the content of freedom without excessive restraint and bounding boxes limiting the movement of the frames. If my War Frame Falls to a place that I can back pedal, please don't reset my freaking respawn. There are falls of course that such thing is justified but having that all the time? I'm treated like a nine years old individual who sees video games for the first time. 

Why not have a toggle for that option of resetting my respawn. Another issue is the rotation axis in Rail jack. Why take that away when I enjoy doing advanced maneuvers. I want to have my Newtonian physics dynamics in my game play. Why not that be a toggle option too? Please don't treat me like a donkey, War Frame. Give me something to test my skills through game play. These are ELEMENTS that makes the possibility to have endgame. 

 

Edited by Felsagger
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Alright. Time to roll up my sleeves and see what 17 pages of everyone being right summarises into.

edit: I like learning about people. Several interesting perspectives so far

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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I remember that before the railjack changes, the most effective and most used way to play was Void Hole against fighters and Forward Artillery against crewships. I had so many runs where only 1 of 4 players was required to do things.

  • Fighter Health? Don't care. Void Hole destroys everything.
  • Turret Damage? Don't care. Void Hole destroys everything.
  • Archgun Damage? Don't care. Void Hole destroys everything.
  • Boarding party health? Don't care. Void Hole destroys everything.
  • Boarding crewships? Don't care. Forward artillery.
  • Crewmen health? Don't care. Forward artillery.
  • Asteroid bases etc. ? Don't care. Most effective farm is without them.

The most dedicated, effective and hardcore players still ignore most mechanics by clever and most effetice use of the ships abilities. But now the other people have a better time.

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4 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Alright. Time to roll up my sleeves and see what 17 pages of everyone being right summarises into.

edit: I like learning about people. Several interesting perspectives so far

You intrigue me very much 

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It is a combination of many things.

But mostly It is the way the game is designed. With the current AI, mission types and mobility, the only end game difficulty they can implement is bigger HP bars for enemies. 

We need some core changes/tweaks/nerfs and better designed missions and enemies to go forward with the "end game." We also need a difficulty setting, the universal, normal/hard/nightmare type of implementation in all missions/alerts to cater everything to both new players and veterans. 

Every Vet knows who boring it is to run a lvl 5 defense mission for 10 waves to get catalyst blueprint or a new skin. But it is still a good experience for a newer player.

If we have a difficulty setting that increases the reward while making the mission harder, it would be less of a chore for the veteran player base. DE should at least implement that because god knows if they'll ever go back and tinker with the core gameplay mehchanics at some point, likely not.

Edited by White_Matter
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14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

A lot? Who is this a lot? 1/8 of these players?

Enough of the playerbase for DE to have made serious efforts to implement endgame over the last few years.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

The question is can seasoned players find a challenge? Yes, of course, a subjective challenge like stripping the mods out of the weapons and frames. Once seasoned players outgrowth the game the possibility of endgame is thrown out of the window. 

Outgrow the game... how? What systems make players outgrow the game? Because playing the Grendel missions should teach you that the game can't really offer a challenge even when it does strip players of all mods. This is a problem that affects not just the possibility of endgame, but the game as a whole.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

How am I driving them out? 

Just look at your behavior on this thread, where you claim false authority over this game and say that it shouldn't even attempt endgame just because you say so, invalidate the opinion of people who don't agree with you in wanting endgame, and dismiss them as some irrelevant minority when they've already gotten to DE. You're acting in a very entitled manner that doesn't allow for plurality of opinion or constructive discussion, is the issue.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

The market is more profitable with new players than seasoned or experienced players. 

Do you have any data to back this up? Not only do I disagree heavily with this, as there are many stories of players heavily investing money in the game only once they've committed to it, I think endgame is in fact relevant to new players, as the promise of endgame is typically a selling point for MMOs. Promising players that they'll still have something to do even after going through the main questline, grind, etc. helps guarantee players that their commitment will be rewarded, something Warframe doesn't do the best job of right now.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

The aspiration of having Primed Chamber is gone. The aspiration of having almost all the Arcanes is gone, the aspiration of being the top clan in a leader board is gone. Tell me what the game has?  The aspiration of having special rewards due to long hours lapping a level are gone. Even I felt asleep lapping the same Kuva Fortress or Survivals in high synergy frame squads. There is no purpose. I ran my 5x3, my five hours of Kuvival and few other tasks just once. After that, there is nothing more than just farming, RNG, XP walls and time gates. 

Yes, precisely. At the end of the day, once that farming is completed there's nothing to really do, and even you're feeling the lack of purpose. It is this precise lack of purpose that I am pointing out is something that could and likely should be addressed with some kind of durable endgame content.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

It's a pipe dream. You know it is.

It's not, though. The game has long-standing problems in delivering challenge, but those are problems the developers have been trying to address. Even if there hasn't been much success in the ways of delivering endgame in the past, there is nonetheless a strong intent on the developers' part to do so, and to give us a challenge in general. If your goal is to try to stop DE from working on endgame content, that ship has sailed a long, long time ago.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

True. 

But War Frame is not a game made for 'endgame'. Sorry. 

Why not?

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On 2020-05-07 at 7:14 AM, ES-Flinter said:

And the bulk of players will someday have the same problem, if they become better. And like now they all just leave like the players before them just because they are a "minority". Wouldn't it be better to give the experienced player a reason to stay in the in game instead of just going?

The problem of what?  Getting bored and wanting it to be an entirely different game?  These players are still generally interested in a more casual power fantasy and that doesn't change.  They'll still leave in droves Warframe becomes Dark Destiny Souls.  Maybe Dark Destiny Souls could be a success, but it wouldn't be with the same audience. 

There isn't this point you imagine players hit where suddenly the game becomes easy.  The game was always easy.  The game hasn't changed.  You have.

Bottom line.  A Dark Destiny Souls player isn't going to slog through months of casual slaughter to get to a challenging game, and the more casual power fantasy player isn't happy suddenly being forced to play Dark Destiny Souls.

Edited by PatternistSlave
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And here's the obligatory "You just want things to be like Dark Souls" response, handily ignoring that there is more to challenge than just the two extremes.

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8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Some enemies will be resistant to War Frame powers. Only way to take them out is with your primaries, secondaries, a tertiary or your melee. (War frames should have three weapons instead of two guns.) Larger enemies should be disabled shooting certain parts. That forces them to attack with other weapons. Abilities powers are useless against them, only on those enemy units. 

A limb-based system where enemies or certain enemies need to be disabled before killing them is too slow of a process, and it makes combat overly repetitive. In DOOM Eternal, which does use a similar system, it's not required to kill them - it's beneficial, yes, but it's just one element.

And at the end of the day, having powers simply not work on some enemies has been tried. It hasn't worked.

9 hours ago, Felsagger said:

That should be the last thing to do. 

DE had the design system upside down. This is why they downgrade War Frames and weapons. They do it in order to accommodate the enemy content evading trivialization. It should be the complete opposite. 

Design first the enemy and then decide what weapons, powers and combos damage them. New toys and new war frames are better justified this way. There is a sense of progression and evolution in the game. Each release of new enemies the player can take down those enemies with old weapons but is way harder. While new toys are the correct tools to take down these new foes. Warframes or weapons doesn't suffer downgrades. Old weapons deals with old enemies. New weapons and frames deals with new foes. This justifies the lore better giving a sense of progression AND endgame.

In my opinion. This is how I perceive the problem. 

Ok, no. This has a whole heap of problems.

One, this is classic power creep. Ever heard of Warstorm? It was your traditional collectible card game, but profitable enough to be acquired by Zynga. They did very much this exact thing - an expansion which basically had 'protection to every card made before this set'. And if you want to go play Warstorm to see how well that worked out for it, you can't, the game shut down shortly thereafter. This is because players were invested in their collection - invested in what they did before. Doing this basically invalidates 7 years of Warframe content, because all future content needs these new weapons and Warframes, so why would you keep it. I mean, with Warstorm, Old cards still worked on other old sets... but let's be real, if you wanted to keep up, you had to realise your collection was worthless. And for many people, that meant quitting, because their collection was part of the reason why people stuck around. Now, granted, this isn't a 1:1 comparison - Warstorm had a significant PvP component as well as PvE, and that hurried the process of course since Pay-to-win was introduced, but at the end of the day, Warframe is also about your collection of items.

 

Two, enemies are obstacles that the player overcomes. You don't design the player character to overcome certain obstacles, you design the obstacles for the player. The idea that you design the enemies, and then build all the other core systems around them is... ludicrous. That's like designing a cathedral before even checking where you're going to be building it. The enemies are a problem, yes. But they are only part of the overall issue, which has been an arms race between cheap enemy design and cheesy ability design. Right now, the players have won that race - we have abilities and systems that allow us to far outclass even basic game design. We have 'win' buttons, plain and simple, and we have absolutely no backstop on using them. Instead of just making enemies that are arbitrarily immune to them (which, again, we have in some cases), we need to go back to these abilities and the systems for using them and redesign them so the abilities themselves are good - once the players are within a reasonable bound of game design, we can then start making enemies that are fun and interesting for these newly rebalanced players to fight.

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26 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And here's the obligatory "You just want things to be like Dark Souls" response, handily ignoring that there is more to challenge than just the two extremes.

Challenge which has been proven unpopular again and again and again.  How many updates do you need before you'll admit it's just not something most players want?  How many times will DE have to roll back challenge before you'll realize you're a minority that DE should ignore?

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24 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Challenge which has been proven unpopular again and again and again.  How many updates do you need before you'll admit it's just not something most players want?  How many times will DE have to roll back challenge before you'll realize you're a minority that DE should ignore?

oU4iAQS.png

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1 minute ago, Vit0Corleone said:

oU4iAQS.png

How many like to admit they're a casual gamer?  But fair enough.  I'll be more honest.  None of you actually want challenge.  You're all full of it.  If you wanted difficulty you wouldn't be playing Warframe.  Or any PvE game for that matter. 

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16 hours ago, Felsagger said:

According to that logic; 

Fishing is end game?

Playing ESO is end game? 

Fashion Frame is end game? 

Playing the Banjo is end game? 

Hunting animals for trophies in Fortuna is  end game? 

My version: Stripping my War Frame mods, leaving only my bo and playing with a pink Rhino kicking the enemy could be end game, right? 

True but that's progression. 

Hence there is no endgame according to what you are saying. Endgame is something fixed for example Solar Rails and the intention to dominate all the nodes. It has aspiration, a challenge, skill, gear checking and team work. 

In other words, the game has 'no endgame'. That is progression. Those are gear check points for further progression. 

No, Liches are exclusive content for seasoned players and activity for squads if the intention is to lift or boost newer players. 

Progression and endgame are not the same thing. 

I would LOVE to have that type of 'endgame'. Yes of course. But that's new content not 'endgame'. 

Then you alone threw the term 'endgame' into a burden of RELATIVITY and Subjectivity. 

 

Now YOU tell me how do I grab this hot pot if the whole term is defined like you said. If End game could be anything then DE should do nothing about it because the problem was already solved. If I'm wrong then tell me what such concept be in WF. It most be something concrete that stays there all the time.  

Yes! If those are the things that people find enjoyable or feel the need to do in this specific game when they've reached a certain point then that is the endgame. WF doesnt have a traditional setup. As I said, what WF doesnt have is an actual endgame endgame, as in a mode that prepares you for further content releases in a tierd way. It does still have endgame, but it is more up to each and every player what that is.

Progression is not mutually exlusive. Endgame can and mostly has progression. Look at all the classic MMORPG types, endgame and progression goes hand in hand. You progress through the endgame and when you are done there you are ready for the next comming piece of content that is targeted for endgame ready players.

Solar Rails is one type of endgame. Just as frontiers was one type of endgame in DaoC. You did that mode to advance your PvP "rank" while also taking over keeps in order to gain access to Darkness Falls. Then there were the Trials of Atlantis which brought endgame with gear progression through PvE. Just as battlegrounds and arenas are endgame activities in WoW, but so are raids and in all of them you progress while you do the endgame activites. So no, endgame doesnt have to be fixed, especially not in a "sandbox" progression game. Teamwork is also not needed for endgame, you can have plenty of solo content that is endgame.

WF has no real endgame mode no. But the example you quoted was not related to WF, it was related to how other games do it and where the line seperates pure leveling/progression content from endgame content in such a game. In WoW for instance a raider mostly prepared himself for the higher tier raids by raiding lower tier raids. But in most cases you could skip the lower tier raids and just do newer dungeons for entry tier worthy gear for the latest raid. That turned the previous "tier 1" raid into not being actual endgame anymore since it was no longer needed to start doing endgame, since you could get the same power from dungeon gear, or in some cases even from quests depending how far the game had advanced.

Liches are technically endgame given the rewards and the "sandbox" nature of WF progression. I do however not prefer to call them that since for most players they were released too late in our progression to ever be an actual challenge. So they are more endgame in the sense of us setting our own goals. For newer players they may actually feel as real endgame since they are a bump in difficulty with exclusive items to chase and their own system tied to it. For me they are more as if Molten Core was released during late Burning Crusade but still had the vanilla levels but with useful items as rewards. Most people are way too over geared for it and only do it for the weapons really, so doesnt fill the need that an actual endgame mode would. And again, progression and endgame go together in most every case.

It really depends on how Duviri and the rest are designed and what they reward. And why did you suddenly start to differentiate between endgame and content? Content is everything we can play, including endgame.

Endgame is always relative and subjective, that is what you fail to understand. It doesnt have strict definitions because it comes down first and foremost what the game in question is. As I said earlier, endgame in a game such as AoW3 starts after a certain turn mostly, it follows the chess definition of the term more since it isnt about actual content to do. It refers to when you should start focusing on winning. In WoW however endgame can both be the latest raids, PvP or like when they introduced archeology you had a new type of endgame that wasnt at all related to any combat. It still had exclusive rewards while being a fairly trivial mode. But it was something you could focus on when you were done with most other things, similar to how endgame exsists in WF. Endgame in D3 starts the moment you enter a season in adventure mode, since you'll grind bounties or rifts so you'll have keys and mats to put together gear or grind when you hit max level. But the game only has one actual endgame mode which is grifts or well nrifts too since you need keys for grifts. So several games can have different states and types of endgame, both in goals set up by the players aswell as concrete endgame modes designed with a specific intent by the devs.

And yes, DE could skip doing anything about it given the do-what-you-feel-like nature of WF. But they also need to consider that many of us are actual classic MMO heads since back in the 90's and want an actual concrete endgame mode when we say we want endgame. Something that actually tests our current power while also preparing us for future releases of further increased difficulty, progression and power.

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27 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

How many like to admit they're a casual gamer?  But fair enough.  I'll be more honest.  None of you actually want challenge.  You're all full of it.  If you wanted difficulty you wouldn't be playing Warframe.  Or any PvE game for that matter. 

It's an anonymous survey. Admitting to anything shouldn't matter. No one knows who you are and how you think as an individual.

Also, I think it's incorrect to assume that players that want difficulty ONLY want difficulty. This is simply not true.

I want to be challenged, I want difficulty to be there available if I'm in the mood for that.

But I also very much enjoy the chill/easy/relaxing environment if that's what I feel like doing today. I even like fishing, hunting. I enjoy doing the occasional defense/survival, whatnot.

Both things can and should co-exist. Warframe is a mini universe in itself, this is not a binary thing, no one is trying to make the whole Warframe experience into hardcore mode.

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4 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

It's an anonymous survey.

I meant to themselves.

6 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Both things can and should co-exist.

They already do, but I assume you mean in the same game.  John Prodman might be a good example.  How many really fight him?  Did it justify the dev time?  Eidolons kindof fill that role, but they didn't stop you all from constantly asking for "endgame" and fostered a rather toxic environment.  Surely you've seen the chat asking for 100+ captures.  And eidolons aren't even all that difficult.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb PatternistSlave:

The problem of what?  Getting bored and wanting it to be an entirely different game?  These players are still generally interested in a more casual power fantasy and that doesn't change.  They'll still leave in droves Warframe becomes Dark Destiny Souls.  Maybe Dark Destiny Souls could be a success, but it wouldn't be with the same audience. 

There isn't this point you imagine players hit where suddenly the game becomes easy.  The game was always easy.  The game hasn't changed.  You have.

Bottom line.  A Dark Destiny Souls player isn't going to slog through months of casual slaughter to get to a challenging game, and the more casual power fantasy player isn't happy suddenly being forced to play Dark Destiny Souls.

(Why do I always have to repeat myself)

You know, there is something which is called "learning by doing". And you can't deactivate it. This does mean that you will become better everytime you play this game. Even if is it just a bit. Me as an exmaple play around 1,42 hours per day. Or to be more exactly only friday and saturday evening/ night. But I started in 2013. I'm capable to kill every planentary boss by just relying on the abilities of my Warframe Ash and the mods (no arcanes) I use for him. Am I now a casual, because I play only on friday on saturday? Or am I a "tryharder/ nerd/ vet", because I can kill everything by doing nothing? Tell me. IMO is the answer easy. I'm just a gamer. I like to play video games, I see it as a hobby and I can play a game with heart and soul. And a casual player is for me someone who like to play games, but wouldn't say that it's is hobby. What you are doing is mistaken a casual player with a newbie.

And most important. Where did I say that I want a dark soul game? I just want a simple challenge. Maybe a boss who use slow, but accurate rockets with heatsensors and autoaim, if I turn invisible and if I use a tank he just use his bfg on me. Just something, which doesn't die by doing nothing. Something which can kill me if I do a stupid mistake. Would that be to hard? Is that already dark souls level for you?

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37 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

It's an anonymous survey. Admitting to anything shouldn't matter.

It shouldn't, but you'd be shocked how many people lie to themselves out of subconcious fear of being ridiculed.

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6 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Something which can kill me if I do a stupid mistake. Would that be to hard? Is that already dark souls level for you?

Pretty much yeah.  They had to take perma death out of arbitrations for example. 

Oh and I don't have a personal stake in it btw other than just wanting the game to do well.  Made a lot of plat because of the community's abhorrence of dying to Liches.

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