Why we cant have endgame content

[Vespilan]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

How often have you failed a Veil Proxima mission before the latest changes?

Never.

[Gabbynaru]

If you think bullet sponges and wasting players time is good game design, you're a bigger threat to this game than those "casuals" that you rag on about. Also, out of your goddamn mind. So, allow me to take a page out of your elitist book and tell you this: Take your elitist bulls*it elsewhere. As much as I rag on about people wanting challenge, at least they want something that could potentially benefit the game. You guys wanting bullet sponges are just plain stupid and insulting. To the community. To the devs. To the game. So either learn the difference between good game design and bullet sponges, or go away!

[SpicyDinosaur]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

How often have you failed a Veil Proxima mission before the latest changes?

Right, that question isn't loaded. Curious how many star chart missions you have failed since creating your character tho. Failing something != it being too dificult. We learn from failure and regroup.

[Drachnyn]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Vespilan:

I have played it before the update and it was in a good spot, bugs aside. Now it has been made easier, I do not need to play it to conclude from info A) Enemies' HP and armor have been nerfed and info B) friend telling me seeker volley lets you finish missions in no time that the nerf was unnecessary.

Seeker Volley was absolute garbage even on the test server (I've tried it there), it needed the damage buff to compete with void hole, which was already tearing through veil fighter hordes as a Tycho Seeker Mk3 or a munitions vortex already one shot everything. The real reason everything is faster now is because much more enemies spawn at once. You would have noticed that if you played it yourself. There was no skill in buying void hole from someone and then turboing through Veil missions, so nothing of value was lost in the EHP reduction, quite the opposite we gained more options and playstyles to engage them.

[kapn655321]

Just now, Vespilan said:

Never.

Sounds like your gear is cheesy af. Rather than making enemies with millions more health to suit the imbalances you feel obligated to exploit, how about they remove a portion of that OP damage reliability that's making your game boring? Sound reasonable?

[SpicyDinosaur]

2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

If you think bullet sponges and wasting players time is good game design, you're a bigger threat to this game than those "casuals" that you rag on about. Also, out of your goddamn mind. So, allow me to take a page out of your elitist book and tell you this: Take your elitist bulls*it elsewhere. As much as I rag on about people wanting challenge, at least they want something that could potentially benefit the game. You guys wanting bullet sponges are just plain stupid and insulting. To the community. To the devs. To the game. So either learn the difference between good game design and bullet sponges, or go away!

 

1 minute ago, Drachnyn said:

Seeker Volley was absolute garbage even on the test server (I've tried it there), it needed the damage buff to compete with void hole, which was already tearing through veil fighter hordes as a Tycho Seeker Mk3 or a munitions vortex already one shot everything. The real reason everything is faster now is because much more enemies spawn at once. You would have noticed that if you played it yourself. There was no skill in buying void hole from someone and then turboing through Veil missions, so nothing of value was lost in the EHP reduction, quite the opposite we gained more options and playstyles to engage them.

The same glyph with the same rage. You two twins?

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Vespilan:

Never.

Exactly. So the truth is that it didn't go from challenging to easy. It went from "so easy you never failed a mission" to "so easy you never failed a mission".

[DrivaMain]

If you want Endgame. Play Destiny. Warframe is a casual grind horde looter shooter game if DE steps out of that territory the casual majority will start a riot or threaten to quit the game because guess what? They’re the ones who mostly keeps this game alive.
 

The only way to have challenge is to create your own. Be it no mods, no bullet jump, random loadout, etc.

[Gabbynaru]

Just now, SpicyDinosaur said:

 

The same glyph with the same rage. You two twins?

Just learning from the best, most sarcastic AI in existence. Wanna join us?

[xXDeadsinxX]

15 minutes ago, Vespilan said:

So you're saying I should make myself artificially weaker because the game doesn't manage to supply enough of a challenge in a gamemode that was meant to be the peak of current """endgame""" (NOTE THE QUOTATION MARKS)? Yeah, no, that is plain stupid.

Warframe does this thing where it will always let you shred millions of enemies in a single mission but will rarely put you up against something challanging. By challenging I don't mean challenging to gear but challenging to player skill. Railjack is challanging to player skill; There are so many things to manage and look out for, theres always action going on both outside and inside the ship. Nerfing enemies, making them fodder, leads to reducing action, by consequence stress, engagement and challenge. It is a stupid notion that makes potentially engaging gameplay just another braindead grind isle.

The game cannot supply challenge towards the players anymore even if the devs try their hardest. We’ve honestly become so powerful that when DE try to add challenge it backfires since it can be either completed insanely fast and/or can be easily trivialized without effort. The only way for the devs to add genuine challenge to players are to nerf everything that is overpowered and that trivializes content. Would it cause an uproar from the community? More than likely, but them nerfing things is the only way for them to add challenge back into the game.

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

Just learning from the best, most sarcastic AI in existence. Wanna join us?

Actually I couldn't figure out how to get a glyph from shy when I paid for a month with Twitch Prime. I would def like one if you have advice!

[Vespilan]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Exactly. So the truth is that it didn't go from challenging to easy. It went from "so easy you never failed a mission" to "so easy you never failed a mission".

And that should be a problem for something that is advertised as endgame content, hence why we are here

[Vespilan]

1 minute ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

The game cannot supply challenge towards the players anymore even if the devs try their hardest. We’ve honestly become so powerful that when DE try to add challenge it backfires since it can be either completed insanely fast and/or can be easily trivialized without effort. The only way for the devs to add genuine challenge to players are to nerf everything that is overpowered and that trivializes content. Would it cause an uproar from the community? More than likely, but them nerfing things is the only way for them to add challenge back into the game.

Could not agree more

[Aldain]

Just now, xXDeadsinxX said:

DE try to add challenge it backfires since it can be either completed insanely fast and/or can be easily trivialized without effort.

Or we get the Wolf of Saturn Six, which was the absolute worst thing I have ever seen in any game, an invading bullet sponge that on Defense/Interception missions traps the players until they slog through the massive Damage Resistance sponge he was.

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Vespilan:

And that should be a problem for something that is advertised as endgame content, hence why we are here

Yes, we are here, in yet another thread where someone claims that something he never failed at was "challenging" because it used to take longer.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Krankbert

[Gabbynaru]

4 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Actually I couldn't figure out how to get a glyph from shy when I paid for a month with Twitch Prime. I would def like one if you have advice!

Well, considering I won mine on twitter of all places, I don't think I'm the right person for advice. But hey, her patreon has glyph giveways even at the 1$ level, so you might wanna roll the dice there?

Edited May 2, 2020 by Gabbynaru

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Or we get the Wolf of Saturn Six, which was the absolute worst thing I have ever seen in any game, an invading bullet sponge that on Defense/Interception missions traps the players until they slog through the massive Damage Resistance sponge he was.

Or solve the developer puzzle and carry a Rad+Crit weapon at all times, rendering the encounter completely trivial..... aaaand no more less poorly designed

Edited May 2, 2020 by Oreades

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Vespilan:

And that should be a problem for something that is advertised as endgame content, hence why we are here

But you said it was in a good spot earlier, now you acknowledge that it wasnt challenging from the start. Doesnt that make this thread entirely pointless then? Railjack was also primarily advertised as connecting the game as a whole.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

Or solve the developer puzzle and carry a Rad+Crit weapon at all times

You forgot to mention bringing a Kavat and Sarpa to get rid of the obnoxious armor since he was Status/(most)Ability/Headshot immune.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Umm most MMOs have endgame content. What are you talking about??

 

I'm curious about solid details on spending habits either way.

 

DE will not give you the Gaussian distribution of such curve with accurate numbers. No company will explain you how much money these users spent throughout their mastery rank. Such information is not public. Common sense applies here as other users explained. The target of this game are the people with greater probability to stay. The stick and carrot is not aimed at the Veterans that knows how to behave and go through the content. The aim is centered on the acquisition of new players and the retention of these players up to their maturation of being veterans.  

[xXDeadsinxX]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Or we get the Wolf of Saturn Six, which was the absolute worst thing I have ever seen in any game, an invading bullet sponge that on Defense/Interception missions traps the players until they slog through the massive Damage Resistance sponge he was.

I never fought The Wolf of Saturn Six myself, but from what I’ve saw, it didn’t necessarily look challenging or even intriguing to fight to say the least. Just shoot him for a long time and he’s dead. Not interesting nor challenging to be honest. It’s starting to get to a point in Warframe where the devs have to add more HP and armor to enemies for us to have “challenge” but that is more annoying and less interesting than having challenge. Would be nice for DE to change their philosophy of the game and nerf things to gain a balance in the game again, but that’s just me of course. 

[SpicyDinosaur]

Just now, Felsagger said:

 

DE will not give you the Gaussian distribution of such curve with accurate numbers. No company will explain you how much money these users spent throughout their mastery rank. Such information is not public. Common sense applies here as other users explained. The target of this game are the people with greater probability to stay. The stick and carrot is not aimed at the Veterans that knows how to behave and go through the content. The aim is centered on the acquisition of new players and the retention of these players up to their maturation of being veterans.  

I think this is somewhat presumptuous with anything but a few peoples' personal opinions to go by.

[STUVash]

il y a 15 minutes, Vespilan a dit :

So you're saying I should make myself artificially weaker because the game doesn't manage to supply enough of a challenge in a gamemode that was meant to be the peak of current """endgame""" (NOTE THE QUOTATION MARKS)? Yeah, no, that is plain stupid.
 

You're missing the point. This mode has a ship which can and should be accessed by four players.
The condition of failure in this mode can be either when all players died after spending all their Revives OR when the ship blows up.

This means that your entire squad needs the ship to keep floating until the end of mission or else no one get cookies.
This means that when you alter your ship's gear, your altering the difficulty of the entire squad. It's the only game mode where the host is being given so much power and freedom on purpose.

Warframe was ALWAYS a game with RPG elements, gear and builds to counter a specific mission type and faction. This RPG side of the game lets Alot of players in the game, where planning will carry them and solve their issues instead of relying on the environment and smart placement.
It has always been the case.

Currently with this update, guess what ? Gear has been made easy. Surprise ! It means the whole RPG side of railjack is now highly exploitable.
But you know what ? It's fine. Because it's your ship, your rules, your difficulty to setup. You have no idea how glad I am that I am not forced to run your << Strongest Meta build >>.

Also side note, those other avionics that are not meta, are pretty fun to use while also rewarding more resources and intrinsinc.

Get Revo Reducer, less revolite used means more repair, meaning more intrinsinc.
Get Battle Forge, double the amount of craft and XP from each forge session.
Get Deep Hold, enlarge forge capacity by 60%, which also synergize with Engineer perks. Giving the entire squad even more resources.

See we're not just running empty slot here, we're getting rewarded for setting a higher difficulty.

But yeah, we are stupid for customizing our games to have the most fun while you're here complaining about game being too easy instead of fixing the issues in your own party.

[DreisterDino]

1.  

vor 44 Minuten schrieb 3rdpig:

Here's an idea. Go go business school with an eye to games. Or, just ask someone who has.

But until then I'll do my best to help out. It's not a "small handful" of casuals against a huge number of vets who have min/maxed every frame and weapon in the game, it's the latter who are the small minority and the casuals, and noobs that are constantly flooding into the game who are in the majority...and who bring the money.

Why do you think professional sports teams are constantly pandering/catering to younger fans and casuals? Because without a constant influx of new fans and the occasional "casual" fan (including spouses and significant others who really aren't that interested), the game dies.

Mathematics strikes again.

I am aware of the fact that the number of casuals is higher than the number of veterans.

My problem here is that people always act as if Veterans are completly unimportant in terms of revenue in comparison to casuals.

If you have been to business school or talked to people who have been, i am sure the terms Whales, Dolphins and Minnows are a known term for you.

 

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Felsagger:

Besides do you think that companies in general are going to disclose in detail how much money they do only on micro transactions? Such proof exists but no one here has access to that stream of data. No company display such number in public. No one. To be honest a smaller studio like DE is going to do it? Really? Are they going to expose the whole distribution of players and how they make money through these micro transactions?

Probably no Data about certain games publicly available, but there is general Data from studies available.

Same here, in F2P Games the terms Whales, Dolphins and Minnows are important terms, and there are studies about their behaviour.

 

I think its fair to make the assumption that Veterans are more likely to become a Whale than some casual who plays this game for a few month and then moves on.

And now lets look at this:

 

Granted, this is about about mobile games for phones, but F2P games on PC/Console have a lot in common with those.

The real numbers obviously differ from game to game and platform to platform, but in general it will look something like this in Warframe.

 

So, @Felsagger, @3rdpig and @(PS4)Quantaminum, i never said Casuals are not important for this game, and even if Veterans/Whales only generate 20% income, thats still important and i think you cannot simply say "yeah who cares about vets, casuals are where the money's at". Oh and btw: i am aware that vets also can be minnows and casuals can be whales, but i still think its more likely that a vet becomes a whale. And plat sales are not everything - there is Tennogen, Tennocon and Merch aswell. And who is buying a Ticket for Tennocon? Probably its more likely to meet Vets there who play this game for quiet some time.

 

You can laugh about what i have said prior to this because "common sense" and "i am MR28 who never bought anything"  - but all you did was making assumptions based on personal observations. And all i am saying is that my observations are different.

 

Edit: Link to the article the graphic is taken from:

https://gameanalytics.com/blog/how-to-identify-whales-in-your-game.html

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by DreisterDino

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Warframe is a power fantasy game. With that comes content that is not challenging towards the player because of how powerful we can become. Railjack likely isn’t going to be any different whatsoever.

Why do they go towards the more casual side of the player base? Who knows, I’m not DE by any means so I have no idea but it could be a multitude of reasons though. It could be because of the amount of money it makes them so they just keep going the casual route, or it could also be so it doesn’t cause an uproar from the community and so they just stick to it. The more likely one out of all of them though is that they might just like Warframe being a power fantasy game since it’s incredibly convenient for them since that’s what they’re always used to design wise. Who honestly knows though.

Power fantasy =/= mindlessly easy game where you don't ever once have to think to beat the game.

Never has, never will.

Kirby is a power fantasy. Kirby is also easy most of the time. But it doesn't let you spam screen nukes to the beat of Caramelldansen. Literally, in Octavia's case. DOOM is a power fantasy, but it's sure as hell willing to rip you a new one. Dark Souls is a power fantasy, for petes sake.

 

Power Fantasy is the fantasy of being powerful - and how do you know something is powerful? Because it can fight against other powerful things - like blowing up a planet, or conquering the strongest of armies. And what is the strongest thing you've encountered thus far? Yourself, because you've beaten everything up to now. So if a new threat shows up and you beat it without any effort, then it wasn't powerful.

If it's so easy that you don't have to think, you're not special as far as your psychology goes, since psychologically speaking, we as a species aren't that great at estimating concepts we don't have a strict, physical grasp on. Hence why so many things offer up scale like football fields - most people can roughly intuit how big a football field is without numbers because they've been on it, which is why a 300 metre long ship doesn't sound that super impressive until you remember that's three football fields. Likewise, a billion nanometres sounds like it's got to at least be somewhat sizable, but it's about a metre, or about as tall as a dog.

And, since there IS no real-world scale by which we can measure the power of the enemies we face outside of some lore posturing, the only scale we have is our own experience with them. This is why games getting harder feels so good. Because it's generally established in fiction as whole that the further through a story you go, the closer to the final fortress of the big bad you come and the stronger the enemies and obstacles you face will be. That implicitly implies that they're stronger than what's come before. If what's come before is hard, then you are powerful for defeating it. But, if what comes next is stronger, then you'll be even more powerful for overcoming it. It's a scale, and you yourself are the measuring stick. However... this also works against you. If things that were once hard become easy, and stay easy (or even become easier), and you're so powerful you don't even have to think anymore... then your brain recontextualises the obstacles and enemies as weak, because they are on the only scale you've got. And all of a sudden, you're not fighting unassailable odds. Because what you are fighting is weak, you yourself are weak, because overcoming it isn't any kind of achievement.

In supreme twist of ironic fate, Power Fantasy is the reason why the game should be at least able to put up a fight.