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Why we cant have endgame content


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vor 44 Minuten schrieb 3rdpig:

Here's an idea. Go go business school with an eye to games. Or, just ask someone who has.

But until then I'll do my best to help out. It's not a "small handful" of casuals against a huge number of vets who have min/maxed every frame and weapon in the game, it's the latter who are the small minority and the casuals, and noobs that are constantly flooding into the game who are in the majority...and who bring the money.

Why do you think professional sports teams are constantly pandering/catering to younger fans and casuals? Because without a constant influx of new fans and the occasional "casual" fan (including spouses and significant others who really aren't that interested), the game dies.

Mathematics strikes again.

I am aware of the fact that the number of casuals is higher than the number of veterans.

My problem here is that people always act as if Veterans are completly unimportant in terms of revenue in comparison to casuals.

If you have been to business school or talked to people who have been, i am sure the terms Whales, Dolphins and Minnows are a known term for you.

 

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Felsagger:

Besides do you think that companies in general are going to disclose in detail how much money they do only on micro transactions? Such proof exists but no one here has access to that stream of data. No company display such number in public. No one. To be honest a smaller studio like DE is going to do it? Really? Are they going to expose the whole distribution of players and how they make money through these micro transactions?

Probably no Data about certain games publicly available, but there is general Data from studies available.

Same here, in F2P Games the terms Whales, Dolphins and Minnows are important terms, and there are studies about their behaviour.

 

I think its fair to make the assumption that Veterans are more likely to become a Whale than some casual who plays this game for a few month and then moves on.

And now lets look at this:

 

Playerrev.jpg

Granted, this is about about mobile games for phones, but F2P games on PC/Console have a lot in common with those.

The real numbers obviously differ from game to game and platform to platform, but in general it will look something like this in Warframe.

 

So, @Felsagger, @3rdpig and @(PS4)Quantaminum, i never said Casuals are not important for this game, and even if Veterans/Whales only generate 20% income, thats still important and i think you cannot simply say "yeah who cares about vets, casuals are where the money's at". Oh and btw: i am aware that vets also can be minnows and casuals can be whales, but i still think its more likely that a vet becomes a whale. And plat sales are not everything - there is Tennogen, Tennocon and Merch aswell. And who is buying a Ticket for Tennocon? Probably its more likely to meet Vets there who play this game for quiet some time.

 

You can laugh about what i have said prior to this because "common sense" and "i am MR28 who never bought anything"  - but all you did was making assumptions based on personal observations. And all i am saying is that my observations are different.

 

Edit: Link to the article the graphic is taken from:

https://gameanalytics.com/blog/how-to-identify-whales-in-your-game.html

 

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1 hour ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Warframe is a power fantasy game. With that comes content that is not challenging towards the player because of how powerful we can become. Railjack likely isn’t going to be any different whatsoever.

Why do they go towards the more casual side of the player base? Who knows, I’m not DE by any means so I have no idea but it could be a multitude of reasons though. It could be because of the amount of money it makes them so they just keep going the casual route, or it could also be so it doesn’t cause an uproar from the community and so they just stick to it. The more likely one out of all of them though is that they might just like Warframe being a power fantasy game since it’s incredibly convenient for them since that’s what they’re always used to design wise. Who honestly knows though.

Power fantasy =/= mindlessly easy game where you don't ever once have to think to beat the game.

Never has, never will.

Kirby is a power fantasy. Kirby is also easy most of the time. But it doesn't let you spam screen nukes to the beat of Caramelldansen. Literally, in Octavia's case. DOOM is a power fantasy, but it's sure as hell willing to rip you a new one. Dark Souls is a power fantasy, for petes sake.

 

Power Fantasy is the fantasy of being powerful - and how do you know something is powerful? Because it can fight against other powerful things - like blowing up a planet, or conquering the strongest of armies. And what is the strongest thing you've encountered thus far? Yourself, because you've beaten everything up to now. So if a new threat shows up and you beat it without any effort, then it wasn't powerful.

If it's so easy that you don't have to think, you're not special as far as your psychology goes, since psychologically speaking, we as a species aren't that great at estimating concepts we don't have a strict, physical grasp on. Hence why so many things offer up scale like football fields - most people can roughly intuit how big a football field is without numbers because they've been on it, which is why a 300 metre long ship doesn't sound that super impressive until you remember that's three football fields. Likewise, a billion nanometres sounds like it's got to at least be somewhat sizable, but it's about a metre, or about as tall as a dog.

And, since there IS no real-world scale by which we can measure the power of the enemies we face outside of some lore posturing, the only scale we have is our own experience with them. This is why games getting harder feels so good. Because it's generally established in fiction as whole that the further through a story you go, the closer to the final fortress of the big bad you come and the stronger the enemies and obstacles you face will be. That implicitly implies that they're stronger than what's come before. If what's come before is hard, then you are powerful for defeating it. But, if what comes next is stronger, then you'll be even more powerful for overcoming it. It's a scale, and you yourself are the measuring stick. However... this also works against you. If things that were once hard become easy, and stay easy (or even become easier), and you're so powerful you don't even have to think anymore... then your brain recontextualises the obstacles and enemies as weak, because they are on the only scale you've got. And all of a sudden, you're not fighting unassailable odds. Because what you are fighting is weak, you yourself are weak, because overcoming it isn't any kind of achievement.

In supreme twist of ironic fate, Power Fantasy is the reason why the game should be at least able to put up a fight.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb xXDeadsinxX:

The game cannot supply challenge towards the players anymore even if the devs try their hardest. We’ve honestly become so powerful that when DE try to add challenge it backfires since it can be either completed insanely fast and/or can be easily trivialized without effort. The only way for the devs to add genuine challenge to players are to nerf everything that is overpowered and that trivializes content. Would it cause an uproar from the community? More than likely, but them nerfing things is the only way for them to add challenge back into the game.

In all honesty, I don't think this would help much. Nerfing stuff would mean that you can't zoom through the levels anymore, and that's the big layer of frosting that's currently covering up that the gunplay in Warframe just isn't good. The bigger problem isn't that everything is overpowered, it's that the game doesn't play well when things aren't.

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Just now, SpicyDinosaur said:

I think this is somewhat presumptuous with anything but a few peoples' personal opinions to go by.

How? I would like to have that data and talk about it here. But imagine if we have such information. That is the same as giving the gold in silver platter to other companies showing how DE managed their survivability through these seven years. Other capable companies will simply copy and paste the market model leaving DE without milk. 

 

Simple as that. 

 

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1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

that's the big layer of frosting that's currently covering up that the gunplay in Warframe just isn't good.

As long as it's being swept under the rug, it will be overlooked rather than addressed.

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Railjack enemies were just bullet sponges. They weren't "perfectly balanced" they just demanded specific weapons be used or they don't die. They also limited the frame pool heavily. That isn't "endgame," it's just restrictive.

They were drastically lowered because we saw in Scarlet Spear that when they scaled even slightly the fighters just became basically invincible for RJ weaponry. Now, they actually have a starting point and a baseline where other modes like survival can be added without enemies being indestructible in the first 5 minutes.

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29 minutes ago, Vespilan said:

 

This sounds like something someone would say who took an MK 1 Apoc into Veil Proxima. In the very beginning it was imbalanced, yes, but that is not what we were talking about. After the first few adjustments, railjack was in a good spot. You could oneshot most small units the cryophon which really meant something given the small enemy count you are usually faced against.

 

mk3 Apoc , carcinnox , photor , pulsor any house with best stats bonus with damage , cc , cd avionics all of them terrible in veil because of fighter health and armour , all of them were overshadowd by cryphon because cryophon used deal like 8K damage per shot . 

Only weapon you could use was cryophon , cryophon was good no , cryophon was litertly the only option to use and DE had to nerf it .

All archguns even with god roll rivens except for cyngas and imperator vandal became hot garbage after RJ update because DE for some reason decided to add projectile with travel time to each one and tincker with damage tipes to .

Balance was not a problem from the begining , it was a problem that evolved into a bigger problem as levels gone up .

 

I had fully deck out Railjack before "revisited patch" , I had multiple runs in veil and all you did was use your void hole to suck up enemys and then blast em with torpedo , no one used archguns and RJ weaponry other then those two and you smart ass have the guts to reply me with that half baked arguments of yours .

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7 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

How? I would like to have that data and talk about it here. But imagine if we have such information. That is the same as giving the gold in silver platter to other companies showing how DE managed their survivability through these seven years. Other capable companies will simply copy and paste the market model leaving DE without milk. 

 

Simple as that. 

 

Oh so we should just assume you are right because we can't get the data? Oh okay sounds reasonable.

 

I think you should read through the quote you were tagged in. 😕

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Dark Souls is a power fantasy, for petes sake.

I would argue that isn't true personally.

Nothing in Dark Souls really screams "POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" like Terry Crews, Dark Souls as much as I hate to say it created its own niche of "Games so obtusely against the player you'd mistake them for being well made versions of LJN NES games".

Really though the whole "Power Fantasy" thing is very vague come to think of it, no solid definition for it.

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To answer OP's question:

The main story isn't finished yet. I don't recall an MMO that had endgame before the main story had finished. What would it even be at this point? Also what would you do after you progress the story past your endgame? Does it just get redesigned, trashed? Would people be ok with their endgame suddenly being much easier for newer players and taking less time invested to complete?

There are a lot of things to consider.

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5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:
  1.  

I am aware of the fact that the number of casuals is higher than the number of veterans.

That ends right there your own argument. 

5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

My problem here is that people always act as if Veterans are completely unimportant in terms of revenue in comparison to casuals.

I said that the set of veterans generates less money than the set of new payers who are eager to become veterans. A veteran is the minority in this game. Do you think few of these will generate more than the set of new players? 

5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

If you have been to business school or talked to people who have been, i am sure the terms Whales, Dolphins and Minnows are a known term for you.

Probably no Data about certain games publicly available, but there is general Data from studies available.

Same here, in F2P Games the terms Whales, Dolphins and Minnows are important terms, and there are studies about their behavior.

 

I think its fair to make the assumption that Veterans are more likely to become a Whale than some casual who plays this game for a few month and then moves on.

And now lets look at this:

 

Playerrev.jpg

Granted, this is about about mobile games for phones, but F2P games on PC/Console have a lot in common with those.

The real numbers obviously differ from game to game and platform to platform, but in general it will look something like this in Warframe.

This information is for mobile games. Then how you use this as a proof? 

Second problem with this proof. Since when designed F2P games for PC and consoles have a lot in common with phone games? Since when? Who says this?

5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 

So, @Felsagger, @3rdpig and @(PS4)Quantaminum, i never said Casuals are not important for this game, and even if Veterans/Whales only generate 20% income, thats still important and i think you cannot simply say "yeah who cares about vets, casuals are where the money's at". Oh and btw: i am aware that vets also can be minnows and casuals can be whales, but i still think its more likely that a vet becomes a whale. And plat sales are not everything - there is Tennogen, Tennocon and Merch aswell. And who is buying a Ticket for Tennocon? Probably its more likely to meet Vets there who play this game for quiet some time.

 

You can laugh about what i have said prior to this because "common sense" and "i am MR28 who never bought anything"  - but all you did was making assumptions based on personal observations. And all i am saying is that my observations are different.

 

Sir, that is a supposition. Do you think that the set of veterans produces more money than the set of new users when the set of new users are likely to stay more and are greater in number? 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

but i still think its more likely that a vet becomes a whale.

I gotta disagree with that when it comes to WF.

Unlike most online games I've played, DE doesn't push veterans to spend money in Warframe.

In WF, veterans truly have nothing worth buying that could benefit them (other than some skins, maybe).

Meanwhile in other games, there's normally a bunch of RNG layers with insane grinds and new, powerful gear coming out every year. If veterans don't succumb to some predatory practices in such games, they just can't keep up with the updates/content and feel pressured to make purchases regularly.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

-snip-

Fair enough. But answer me this then, since Warframe has no challenging content at the moment, what would need to happen for them to start adding challenging content for the players?

16 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

In all honesty, I don't think this would help much. Nerfing stuff would mean that you can't zoom through the levels anymore, and that's the big layer of frosting that's currently covering up that the gunplay in Warframe just isn't good. The bigger problem isn't that everything is overpowered, it's that the game doesn't play well when things aren't.

Interesting view point. My main concern is how would they polish/fix the gun play then? Would they have to go back to parkour 1.0 to make the game slower in a way so that the gun play can be more polished than what is currently? Would they need to add more stealth in the game, like hiding/peaking behind walls and such? I’m just genuinely curious since if nerfing isn’t the actual answer than what really is?

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Just now, Aldain said:

I would argue that isn't true personally.

Nothing in Dark Souls really screams "POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" like Terry Crews, Dark Souls as much as I hate to say it created its own niche of "Games so obtusely against the player you'd mistake them for being well made versions of LJN NES games".

True. But... if this world is so tough, then you must be pretty tough too when you beat it up!

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Really though the whole "Power Fantasy" thing is very vague come to think of it, no solid definition for it.

Precisely.

Power Fantasy could be more accurately termed as the 'being special' fantasy. It's literally just the fantasy of being powerful in any way and power comes in so many different forms, that it's an extremely generic statement.

Power Fantasy is everything from Sun Wukong beating the living (and unliving) daylights out of everything under and in heaven, and it's Anansi the Spider successfully wiling the world's stories out from the god of stories. It's the Rags-to-Riches tale, it's the 'saving the world' trope. It's the Uber'ed Heavy screaming I AM BULLETPROOOOOOOF from meet the Medic and it's Widowmaker outsmarting the protagonist to make one shot in the 'Alive' short.

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51 minutes ago, Vespilan said:

So you're saying I should make myself artificially weaker because the game doesn't manage to supply enough of a challenge in a gamemode that was meant to be the peak of current """endgame""" (NOTE THE QUOTATION MARKS)? Yeah, no, that is plain stupid.

Dunno sounds like the adaptive thing to do while your busy crying that everything is too easy. 

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2 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

what would need to happen for them to start adding challenging content for the players?

My stance is rather unpopular on that subject but leans towards a combination of two things.

1) Making "heavy" enemy units actually have resistance (note: not immunity) to things like AoE nuking/stunlocking or abilities so that they actually need to be addressed with some level of precision and focus (think like a Nox but you can't just stagger-lock it or have Mesa press 4).

2) Increasing the variety of those heavy units so that more factors need to be focused on for combat, more types of things that need precision to deal with, like having a belt-fed Grineer Super Heavy Gunner where you can shoot the munitions on its back to reduce its damage and make it more susceptible to damage at the same time.

Basically, my stance is to increase the need for engaging with the game as a whole, obviously some things would need to be adjusted (or as some people prefer "NURF-ED") but the real issue isn't solvable by numbers manipulation, it needs deliberate design choices to encourage the player to actually focus on and interact with the game.

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20 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Oh so we should just assume you are right because we can't get the data? Oh okay sounds reasonable.

 

I think you should read through the quote you were tagged in. 😕

This argument dies with few lines. 

Count the numbers of MR 26 to MR28 in a moon clan versus the lower ranks MR 8 to MR25 on the same clan and consider who logs more counting the hours of play. Basic probability says that the number of players who are veterans generates less money than the vast majority of new players who wants to stay in the game.

 

End of the proof.  

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4 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Fair enough. But answer me this then, since Warframe has no challenging content at the moment, what would need to happen for them to start adding challenging content for the players?

One equally paradoxical thing is the whole nerfing of the Empyrean on foot (not the fighters). Balance is key to all of this, and they were as out of balance with the rest of the game as Shields vs Armour. Everything needs to be on roughly the same playing field.

 

After that, probably the biggest step would be something about reworking the energy system. The problems are deeply systemic, and there's absolutely no one single change that can make a dent, but energy is probably the biggest. Overall, it's the fact that everything from the likes of Mach Rush (which is literally just 'run fast) to Maim or Spores (which deal hypothetically infinite damage) all run on the same fuel tank. Some of these work best when they're freely available. Others snap the game in two. The complexities of what would need to be done about this make it far too monumental a task for me alone to think of a solution, and there'd probably need to be many other changes made as well, but the free use of all abilities, regardless of how powerful they really are, is the problem. 

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How do you make challenging endgame in a game like Warframe though? We're so powerful that nothing in the game gets to be a challenge, and if the game has challenging mechanics that disrupts the fast pace players are used to, it won't be well received from the majority of the playerbase. All they can do is make fights with different mechanics, but they're not hard. And bullet sponges do not equal to challenge btw, especially when you can cheese them at any level.

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1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

This argument dies with one line. 

Count the numbers of MR 26 to MR28 in a moon clan versus the lower ranks MR 8 to MR25 on the same clan and consider who logs more considering the hours of play. Basic probability says that the number of players who are veterans generates less money that the vast majority of new players who wants to stay in the game.

 

End of the proof.  

Yea that seems logical. Sorry to question you. 😅

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Imo they should probably leave gian as easy as it is and fighters as a whole all in all you spend resources to one shot them (few of them actually use anti missiles lures)

What DE should do is to add Eximus Frigates\Cruisers with a size between crewships and fighters , like you press 3 to delete fighters but have to dogfight a Frigate depleting it's hp and destroying it armaments a.k.a weapon nodes , shield nodes , engines. (without forced need of main cannon like crewships do)

Just give DE great ideas as Scot said they first balance out mode as a whole then will do missions and other stuff , don't forget game started 7 years ago also from just 1 corpus tileset.

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15 minutes ago, Aldain said:

My stance is rather unpopular on that subject but leans towards a combination of two things.

1) Making "heavy" enemy units actually have resistance (note: not immunity) to things like AoE nuking/stunlocking or abilities so that they actually need to be addressed with some level of precision and focus (think like a Nox but you can't just stagger-lock it or have Mesa press 4).

2) Increasing the variety of those heavy units so that more factors need to be focused on for combat, more types of things that need precision to deal with, like having a belt-fed Grineer Super Heavy Gunner where you can shoot the munitions on its back to reduce its damage and make it more susceptible to damage at the same time.

Basically, my stance is to increase the need for engaging with the game as a whole, obviously some things would need to be adjusted (or as some people prefer "NURF-ED") but the real issue isn't solvable by numbers manipulation, it needs deliberate design choices to encourage the player to actually focus on and interact with the game.

That definitely would increase player engagement in the game but I’m not sure if that would create challenge though unless things were probably nerfed. I mean, I’m not against adding that, I’d be fine if they added more enemies like that in the game but since we have insanely powerful weapons we’d be able to take them out incredibly fast like other enemies. 

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

One equally paradoxical thing is the whole nerfing of the Empyrean on foot (not the fighters). Balance is key to all of this, and they were as out of balance with the rest of the game as Shields vs Armour. Everything needs to be on roughly the same playing field.

 

After that, probably the biggest step would be something about reworking the energy system. The problems are deeply systemic, and there's absolutely no one single change that can make a dent, but energy is probably the biggest. Overall, it's the fact that everything from the likes of Mach Rush (which is literally just 'run fast) to Maim or Spores (which deal hypothetically infinite damage) all run on the same fuel tank. Some of these work best when they're freely available. Others snap the game in two. The complexities of what would need to be done about this make it far too monumental a task for me alone to think of a solution, and there'd probably need to be many other changes made as well, but the free use of all abilities, regardless of how powerful they really are, is the problem. 

That is quite true yeah. What do you think if they put a cool down on all Warframe abilities and get away from of the entire energy system in-general? Do you think that would be a positive or a negative if they went with that route? It’d definitely stop players from spamming certain abilities that’s for sure.

I do agree with you though, Warframe is so broken all over the place that you can’t mention fixing one broken system until you fix that other broken system first.

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7 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Yea that seems logical. Sorry to question you. 😅

 

It's common sense. Look at all DE moves. Ask the following, who DE addresses more? To whom DE aim the sight? Who is the target audience? 

 

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3 hours ago, Vespilan said:

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players keep crying about how hard any new gamemode is because they haven't adapted to it yet, DE gives in and creates another grindzone

Yes and no.

Huge part of the problem is that Railjack originally was intended for experienced players but that didn't turn out profitable enough so they reduced the building costs and reduced the difficulty.

Also I think Railjack was bit too slow compared to the ground combat. And now De wants to get as close to the pace of the ground combat as possible. That is also a reason for making enemies weaker and the Railjack faster.

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