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Why we cant have endgame content


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5 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

That definitely would increase player engagement in the game but I’m not sure if that would create challenge though unless things were probably nerfed.

You can't have challenge without engagement, after all, the biggest problem with Warframe right now isn't so much that the game is easy, but that it can all but be ignored because nothing requires paying attention outside of small outliers like Arby drones and things like Eidolons and Orbs.

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1 minute ago, JackHargreav said:

 

Huge part of the problem is that Railjack originally was intended for experienced players but that didn't turn out profitable enough so they reduced the building costs and reduced the difficulty.

Agree, of course. 

This adds more to the proof. It's not profitable enough only with the veterans. Hence Veterans are not profitable enough for DE's expectations. That says almost everything. 

 

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8 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

That is quite true yeah. What do you think if they put a cool down on all Warframe abilities and get away from of the entire energy system in-general? Do you think that would be a positive or a negative if they went with that route? It’d definitely stop players from spamming certain abilities that’s for sure.

I do agree with you though, Warframe is so broken all over the place that you can’t mention fixing one broken system until you fix that other broken system first.

Cool down is... it has its own benefits and problems.

Namely, it's kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. There's plenty of abilities that shouldn't have a cooldown, because in a sense, they're natural extensions of that Warframe itself. Gauss is largely defined by his Mach Rush, and limiting how often you could use that would be... well, really strange. Likewise, Wisp gets a lot of her own ghostliness from her free movement via teleportation, and arguments could definitely be made for the likes of other weaker abilities like fireball.

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25 minutes ago, Aldain said:

My stance is rather unpopular on that subject but leans towards a combination of two things.

1) Making "heavy" enemy units actually have resistance (note: not immunity) to things like AoE nuking/stunlocking or abilities so that they actually need to be addressed with some level of precision and focus (think like a Nox but you can't just stagger-lock it or have Mesa press 4).

2) Increasing the variety of those heavy units so that more factors need to be focused on for combat, more types of things that need precision to deal with, like having a belt-fed Grineer Super Heavy Gunner where you can shoot the munitions on its back to reduce its damage and make it more susceptible to damage at the same time.

Basically, my stance is to increase the need for engaging with the game as a whole, obviously some things would need to be adjusted (or as some people prefer "NURF-ED") but the real issue isn't solvable by numbers manipulation, it needs deliberate design choices to encourage the player to actually focus on and interact with the game.

This and I propose:
3) Make fewer enemies spawn but make them alot beefier.

This meassure makes engagements with enemies more meaningful and could even fix alot of things that are broken in Warframe. Fewer but beefier enemies could help dethrone the AoE weapon meta and give more power to single-target tools like sniper rifles or things like Banshee's sonar augment. 

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7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You can't have challenge without engagement, after all, the biggest problem with Warframe right now isn't so much that the game is easy, but that it can all but be ignored because nothing requires paying attention outside of small outliers like Arby drones and things like Eidolons and Orbs.

 

Completely agree. Moreover, that is one of the basic principles in game design theory. Challenge is defined with degrees of engagement or the four P. Position, Priority, Preservation and Preference. If there is no engagement the game becomes dismissed because nothing demands a higher level of attention. 

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There seems to be no (or little) published information on the relationship between the time a player plays a game and the amount of money is spent on the game. Therefore, it is difficult to argue that "new players" spend more money than "veteran" players. Also, the terms used in this thread appear to be imprecise.

A "newbie" is different than a "casual" (yet a "casual" can be a "newbie" in the beginning).

Breaking down the terms "casual" and "veteran" into ranges of hours played (for Warframe) doesn't really help identify players properly. But "newbie" and "veteran" could be broken down into hour ranges...and still that doesn't address the spending of money.

For example...consider this break down for "newbie" and "veteran"

Newbie - less than 500 hours in the game

Veteran - 500 or more hours in the game

These are too general and broad...since as some posters (quoted below) state..."veterans" don't spend money on the game. This is most likely inaccurate..."long time players" are probably the players that don't spend money on the game.

So to break down the terms again...(the likelihood used here is purely made up for discussion purposes)

New Newbie - less than 150 hours in the game (low likelihood to spend money)

Old Newbie - 150 to 499 hours in the game (medium likelihood to spend money)

Newer veteran - 500 to 1499 hours in the game (high likelihood to spend money)

Middle age veteran - 1500 to 2999 hours in the game (very high likelihood to spend money)

Old veteran - 3000 or more hours in the game ( low likelihood to spend money)

None of these labels identifies a player as a "casual" or "hard core" or other levels of interest in the game. It simply is speaking to the time spent playing. The "hard core" player may spend more money than a "casual" to get items quicker or the "hard core" player may not spend any money because they will "grind" to get items in the game.

A "casual" may have played this game for years and have over 3000 hours in the game but are not at the level of performance in the game that a "hard core" player that has played for less than a year with 1200 hours is...

Quote
  • Newbie: (commonly shortened to "noob", "n00b", or "newb") A slang term for a novice or newcomer to a certain game, or to gaming in general.[22][23]
  • Casual gamer: The term is often used for gamers who primarily play casual games, but can also refer to gamers who play less frequently than other gamers.[24] Casual gamers may play games designed for ease of gameplay, or play more involved games in short sessions, or at a slower pace than hardcore gamers.[8] The types of game that casual gamers play vary, and they are less likely to own a dedicated video game console.[25][26] Notable examples of casual games include The Sims and Nintendogs.[27] Casual gamer demographics vary greatly from those of other video gamers, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female.[28] "Fitness gamer"s, who play motion-based exercise games, are also seen as casual gamers.[29]
  • Core gamer: (also mid-core) A player with a wider range of interests than a casual gamer and is more likely to enthusiastically play different types of games,[30] but without the amount of time spent and sense of competition of a hardcore gamer. The mid-core gamer enjoys games but may not finish every game they buy and is a target consumer.[31][32] Former Nintendo president Satoru Iwata stated that they designed the Wii U to cater to core gamers who are in between the casual and hardcore categories.[33] A number of theories have been presented regarding the rise in popularity of mid-core games. James Hursthouse, the founder of Roadhouse Interactive, credits the evolution of devices towards tablets and touch-screen interfaces, whereas Jon Radoff of Disruptor Beam compares the emergence of mid-core games to similar increases in media sophistication that have occurred in media such as television.[34]
  • Hardcore gamer: Ernest Adams and Scott Kim have proposed classification metrics to distinguish "hardcore gamers" from casual gamers,[35] emphasizing action, competition, complexity, gaming communities, and staying abreast of developments in hardware and software. Others have attempted to draw the distinction based primarily on which platforms a gamer prefers,[36] or to decry the entire concept of delineating casual from hardcore as divisive and vague.[37]

Link to wikipedia article discussing the term "gamer"

3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

For better or worse casual, sporadics and newbies are the target for service games in general. Warframe is no exception. Any game that is devised as a service will end if there is end game and fixed meta. Veterans generate less money than the set of new players. As other people said before the casual, sporadics and newbies plays more the game because they want to get good hence more revenue for the company. Veterans rarely stays in the game regularly.

Mixing "casual" and "newbies" blurs the discussion on who generates more money for Warframe. A "newbie" may spend some money on the game but the longer someone plays (even as a "casual") the likelihood they spend money on the game increases...but then tapers off for the "old veteran" (very long term players).

3 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Ive seen this so many times now, but i have yet to see some evidence or proof for this.

Tbh, i dont even think this is correct.

Yes new players probably buy some plat when they start out,

but who are the whales in this game? Veterans.

I know so many vets from my clan who have literally spent hundreds or thousands of euros in this game buying all PA's and so on, while there are also tons of F2P-Casuals who never spent anything and even say that they are not planning on spending anything. Ignoring those Vets is simply a big mistake, because they generate income aswell.

<snip>

So, if anyone actually has a proof that casuals are the main source of income, please share it because my observations are different.

Finding actual proof is very difficult it appears. Hopefully, someone can find some references.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

ROFL, do you think that veterans spend a lot of money in this game? They farm and sell for platinum gains without spending a dime in the game. I'm an MR 28 veteran who played this game for seven years. 

Here the terms "veteran" and "casual" are being used broadly.

2 hours ago, 3rdpig said:

Here's an idea. Go go business school with an eye to games. Or, just ask someone who has.

But until then I'll do my best to help out. It's not a "small handful" of casuals against a huge number of vets who have min/maxed every frame and weapon in the game, it's the latter who are the small minority and the casuals, and noobs that are constantly flooding into the game who are in the majority...and who bring the money.

Why do you think professional sports teams are constantly pandering/catering to younger fans and casuals? Because without a constant influx of new fans and the occasional "casual" fan (including spouses and significant others who really aren't that interested), the game dies.

Mathematics strikes again.

Again the terms "veteran" and "casual" are being used broadly.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

DE will not give you the Gaussian distribution of such curve with accurate numbers. No company will explain you how much money these users spent throughout their mastery rank. Such information is not public. Common sense applies here as other users explained. The target of this game are the people with greater probability to stay. The stick and carrot is not aimed at the Veterans that knows how to behave and go through the content. The aim is centered on the acquisition of new players and the retention of these players up to their maturation of being veterans.  

Not sure what a bell curve (normal distribution) is going to show when it comes to players spending money on a game...but if companies did share that information it might be interesting to read.

But on spending money on a game...there seems to be no easily found (via a five minute Google search) articles or studies that correlate player longevity to spending habits (i.e. do newer players spend more than players with more time invested into the game).

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Study Says 69% Of 'Fortnite' Players Spend Money On The Game, $85 Spent On Average

Link to Forbes article about Fortnight study on how much money players spend

Quote

The results indicated that the purchasing reasons converged into six dimensions: 1) Unobstructed play, 2) Social interaction, 3) Competition, 4) Economical rationale, 5) Indulging the children, and 6) Unlocking content.

This paper covers mobile games as well as MMOs (as do most studies) so applying it to Warframe directly may be difficult.

Link to paper discussing why players buy in-game content

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Naturally, the longer the amounts of time that are spent online and in-game, the more the player emotionally and psychologically invests in the game (Griffiths, 2010). The concept of ‘flow’(Csikszentmihalyi 1992)has been applied to gaming and can involve becoming emotionally attached to a character (Hull, Wiliams & Griffiths, 2013)

Link to paper discussing why players buy virtual items

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2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Cool down is... it has its own benefits and problems.

Namely, it's kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. There's plenty of abilities that shouldn't have a cooldown, because in a sense, they're natural extensions of that Warframe itself. Gauss is largely defined by his Mach Rush, and limiting how often you could use that would be... well, really strange. Likewise, Wisp gets a lot of her own ghostliness from her free movement via teleportation, and arguments could definitely be made for the likes of other weaker abilities like fireball.

I'd say an inversion of cooldowns might serve this game better. Every ability builds up a shared "overheat" meter to varying degrees. Hit the limit, and you get locked out of your powers for a short while. With a system like this, powers are readily available, but spam is discouraged. It also doesn't need much tweaking for channeled abilities (I'm thinking that powers like Kinetic Plating and Scarab Swarm would "lock off" a portion of the meter until they end).

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb Felsagger:

This information is for mobile games. Then how you use this as a proof? 

Second problem with this proof. Since when designed F2P games for PC and consoles have a lot in common with phone games? Since when? Who says this?

Ill just give one example although i have some more in mind:

  • pay with premium currency to skip waiting times

 

This is a thing in mobile games and might even be the No.1 use for premium currency in some of them,

and this is also a big thing in Warframe (Foundry, everything in the Dojo, construction of Railjack and its components etc).

Waiting times in general (skipable with money or not) are an important mechanic in mobile games and just as important in Warframe.

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I don't think this is a casual vs hardcore thing. This comes down to the image players have of warframe. Warframe is a:

  • "looter shooter"
  • "horde mode"
  • "power fantasy"
  • "soloable"
  • etc

I was watching a youtuber go through some railjack stuff pre-revision and his complaint boiled down to "this isn't warframe". After the revision, it's gotten his tick of approval for "being warframe". Basically they made all the changes he wanted so that it became something he could identify as being warframe.

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21 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You can't have challenge without engagement, after all, the biggest problem with Warframe right now isn't so much that the game is easy, but that it can all but be ignored because nothing requires paying attention outside of small outliers like Arby drones and things like Eidolons and Orbs.

I absolutely agree with you but still not sure. It’d be a massive positive and give a breath of fresh air if they switched all the non-engaging enemies in the game with engaging enemies that are actually interesting. That would make challenge for the players without a doubt, but for how long? Look at the Nox for example, it’s definitely a unique and somewhat difficult enemy that you got to fight if you’re not equipped but how easily can a well experienced player 1 shot them in a matter of seconds? Now don’t get me wrong, I‘m not against your idea by any means, just cautious that it may not give enough of a challenge towards players. Like, would it all go to waste if well experienced players are able to kill them in seconds no matter what engagement the enemy has?

17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Cool down is... it has its own benefits and problems.

Namely, it's kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. There's plenty of abilities that shouldn't have a cooldown, because in a sense, they're natural extensions of that Warframe itself. Gauss is largely defined by his Mach Rush, and limiting how often you could use that would be... well, really strange. Likewise, Wisp gets a lot of her own ghostliness from her free movement via teleportation, and arguments could definitely be made for the likes of other weaker abilities like fireball.

Never thought of that problem yeah. Do you think having a few second cool down to maybe no cool down depending on how crucial the ability is for said Warframe maybe? Namely for the abilities that you suggested.

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4 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Ill just give one example although i have some more in mind:

  • pay with premium currency to skip waiting times

 

This is a thing in mobile games and might even be the No.1 use for premium currency in some of them,

and this is also a big thing in Warframe (Foundry, everything in the Dojo, construction of Railjack and its components etc).

Waiting times in general (skipable with money or not) are an important mechanic in mobile games and just as important in Warframe.

Warframe was not designed for the mobile industry. This game was designed for the PC industry. Then the other platforms came for ports expanding DE reaches. This game is designed considering the environment of the PC market. The grind time is there because time is money in this game. The game feeds on time gates. That is the basic structure of such game. RNG will increase the time gates and paying for an item a shortening of the time gate. 

Who pays more for the shortening of these time gates? People with experience who knows how to short cut the grind or new players who doesn't understand these concepts. If we throw away the words veteran and newbies how you reach the conclusion that long experienced gamers spend more than the vast majority of new comers to the game? 

 

In other words, DE moves are not aimed at long experienced gamers. Their strategies are aimed to new players and the retention of these new players trying to make these stays in the game. This is how the game feeds. 

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vor 23 Minuten schrieb Felsagger:

 

vor 28 Minuten schrieb JackHargreav:

Yes and no.

Huge part of the problem is that Railjack originally was intended for experienced players but that didn't turn out profitable enough so they reduced the building costs and reduced the difficulty.

Also I think Railjack was bit too slow compared to the ground combat. And now De wants to get as close to the pace of the ground combat as possible. That is also a reason for making enemies weaker and the Railjack faster.

Agree, of course. 

This adds more to the proof. It's not profitable enough only with the veterans. Hence Veterans are not profitable enough for DE's expectations. That says almost everything. 

 

 

Sry but your definition of "proof" is really interesting 😄

  1. Some random dude on a forum guesses the reasons on why Railjack has been made more available to all kinds of players
  2. you take that as a fact and add another assumption (while changing the original word "experienced player" with "veteran")
  3. case closed, basically everything said

 

Oh and btw, DE never said Railjack was supposed to be only for "Veterans". Besides that, the entrance barrier to Railjack is still not really noob-friendly (need clan, ressources, credits and at least some experience in the game to both handle normal Warframe Gameplay with the Railjack on top).

 

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Felsagger:

Warframe was not designed for the mobile industry. This game was designed for the PC industry. Then the other platforms came for ports expanding DE reaches. This game is designed considering the environment of the PC market. The grind time is there because time is money in this game. The game feeds on time gates. That is the basic structure of such game. RNG will increase the time gates and paying for an item a shortening of the time gate.

Do i really have to say something now? 😅

Take the underlined part and ask some people what you are talking about. And then tell me how many answered with "Mobile Games".

 

 

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DE probably thought people didn't bother playing RJ because it was too hard. While the reason why people didn't bother playing it initially was because it was a pretty hard grind for new players, and most importantly the "Content Island" burns out really fast. Like you unlock nodes and farm some essential intrinsics and avionics, and at that point there is literally nothing left to be done.

DE keep missing the mark by a long shot. I think the core team should play the game more.

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17 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 

Sry but your definition of "proof" is really interesting 😄

  1. Some random dude on a forum guesses the reasons on why Railjack has been made more available to all kinds of players
  2. you take that as a fact and add another assumption (while changing the original word "experienced player" with "veteran")
  3. case closed, basically everything said.

A formal proof is beyond our knowledge. I think that this argument is very complex and we came with speculations. However there are good variables to be discussed here. I'll throw away the terms veterans and new players. We can't measure this phenomenon with these terms. They are broad. The issue here  must 'correlate player longevity to spending habits'  as a user mentioned before and the problem of 'concrete purchase motivations'. 

GreyDeath, stated the complexity of this problem adding the correct terms and parameters for the conversation. We are blind in this area. We can't even start grasping what is the main problem. He is absolutely right with his information. I haven't seen this papers before so there are a lot of things to digest in this simple tiny topic. 

You are struggling with the main belief that players with lots of hours with the exposure of the game are likely to invest. By reading few of this articles, yes that happens. People who stays may spend more than those who come and go or those players who are not in a 'steady state' engaging the game. That makes things way more difficult. 

We don't have the information to say one thing or the other. Sadly we are adrift on these topics. 

Quote

 

Oh and btw, DE never said Railjack was supposed to be only for "Veterans". Besides that, the entrance barrier to Railjack is still not really noob-friendly (need clan, ressources, credits and at least some experience in the game to both handle normal Warframe Gameplay with the Railjack on top).

I think DE shared some light about who are those who have their Railjack and the percent. If I don't remember well it is about 2% when they mentioned the topic. That percentage grew over time. The new adjustments made easier the acquisition of the Railjack. 

Quote

Take the underlined part and ask some people what you are talking about. And then tell me how many answered with "Mobile Games".

Questions: Who influenced who? The market of PC influenced and defined the market of mobile phones or vice verse? Where this market of time gate games happened first? Can we compare PC games to Phone games? Is that viable for a conversation? 

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4 hours ago, Vespilan said:

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players keep crying about how hard any new gamemode is because they haven't adapted to it yet, DE gives in and creates another grindzone. 

You just answer your own Question.

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Warframe won't admit they're an MMORPG.

MMORPGs have rotating endgame content too. Just look at WoW pumping an expansion every two years and having a world progression during the expansion. GW2 does it, so does every other MMORPG. Warframe claims to be in beta mode so they can keep releasing content. They should just admit they're more of an MMORPG. That will prevent folk from getting their hopes up about some sort of constant endgame.

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26 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

DE probably thought people didn't bother playing RJ because it was too hard. While the reason why people didn't bother playing it initially was because it was a pretty hard grind for new players, and most importantly the "Content Island" burns out really fast. Like you unlock nodes and farm some essential intrinsics and avionics, and at that point there is literally nothing left to be done.

DE keep missing the mark by a long shot. I think the core team should play the game more.

Pretty much yeah. One of the main reasons why I never built my Railjack when I was still playing the game was because there’s no real reason to. I mean I could play it for fun if I really wanted to, but I’m not going to since the rewards aren’t actually rewarding, not enough variety in missions, and doesn’t connect through the overall game of Warframe like they promised.

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2 minutes ago, AshenHaze said:

Warframe won't admit they're an MMORPG.

MMORPGs have rotating endgame content too. Just look at WoW pumping an expansion every two years and having a world progression during the expansion. GW2 does it, so does every other MMORPG. Warframe claims to be in beta mode so they can keep releasing content. They should just admit they're more of an MMORPG. That will prevent folk from getting their hopes up about some sort of constant endgame.

This is a fresh interesting answer. Rotation of finality without a final state of things. The market and the behavior of Warframe was well devised but at the same time I smell a lot of improvisation that where added later on. We can't see how the public behaves purchasing items for this game. We can't see if long term players invest more than short term players. We don't know how DE survived with this market model. 

The business engineering of this game is fascinating. When metas where fixed in stone those where 'abolished' with 'fixes' dispersing one perfect solutions over various problems. DE went on the road of saying, we have different problems and different fair or satisfactory solutions that are attainable to a wide variety of players. What you mentioned here is a piece of the puzzle that feels coherent in my opinion. Their business gravitates around rotations of meta, RNG, and time gates. If such things becomes final or well defined then the game at some point stops gaining money because people will simply answer the problems with one solution discarding the other tools in the kit. 

The conversation is hard to follow because the key here is to not settle things in stone so people continues searching how the game works, what DE thinks or how to predict this 'erratic' behavior. There should be some pattern hidden there but again this topic is fascinating. 

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Read the OP and comments on the first page.

In a game where mechanics are so easily subverted in the late-game, i don't think warframe has had any content that has been truly "endgame" in the challenging sense.  The greatest challenge in warframe, honestly after going back through it on a PC account, it the initial starchart with lack of credits, endo, forma, and available weapons.  No operator, no arcanes, no easy self-heal that doesn't take up mod space, etc.

The greatest challenge is found in early-game unless you don't partake in the mechanic abuse.  And it is/was(?) very easy to respond to the call of mechanic abuse.

 

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Unfortunately this is probably the only way for DE to make a "good first impression". Make things easy and take no effort

You want people to give glowing review for a game mode? Make it easy, give awards away. 

You want the next update to be well received Make sure to the grind is non existent and awards are easy to get. Then streamers can say how awesome it is. 

The moment anything takes grind or kills pep people, suddenly everything about it is horrible as people rage. 

Just have to wait for the pendulum to swing the other way. Eventually the vets will complain about the game being too easy.

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4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Unfortunately this is probably the only way for DE to make a "good first impression". Make things easy and take no effort

There was an opposite problem with Railjack though, it didn't make a good first impression not because it was hard, but because it had a comically large buy-in cost (mostly the credits) with no tutorial or explanation of anything.

People are often only willing to exert effort in something if they believe it is even remotely worthwhile or attainable in the first place, Railjack launched with the latter being out of reach for a large amount of the playerbase with nothing interesting behind it other than a proof of concept. Add in the handful of people who did get in to it saying "This is boring/incomplete/shallow/etc." and you had a cycle of people going "why bother" and not unlocking things in the first place.

Railjack shouldn't have launched hard, it should have launched and built up TO hard and rewarding gradually, but DE frontloaded a huge amount of the buy-in and backloaded anything worthwhile by making MK1-2 parts you find in the first Proxima useless compared to MK3 Sigmas because of their obtuse resource costs.

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At this point, DE just needs to run a pass on weapon stats and mods. Any weapon that's beyond bad due to stats need to be brought up, and then all weapons brought up even further while lowering the amount of damage gained through mods.

DE will realistically never be able to balance enemies for people who have mods equipped and for those who either don't have them, or are using questionable setups; there was someone using magnetic+reload speed+mag cap in Veil complaining they weren't doing damage before. Even before the initial armor changes, a lot of weapons, even some unpopular, when modded correctly still killed ground units quickly, and after the armor changes+officer fix even more weapons were able to kill all of them quickly with the burstier weapons killing them in a single shot. This is in addition to only killing a small number of them compared to standard ground missions which justified their extra durability; plus when they boarded they all spawned on top of each other making aoe weapons able to instantly kill them all, even tiny aoe, or being able to mod single target weapons with punch through, it also made any cc easy to hit them all.

The wide gap applied to Railjack itself too. Fighters weren't really durable at all once the Railjack was equipped. Veil runs were being done in just a few minutes. As usual though, DE has to balance for a pretty low point, which makes properly gearing anything pretty pointless other than for making a run a little quicker.

DE has Warframe from a stat perspective done so in a way MMORPGs do it; you start off absurdly weak, but get to max level and then geared and you're a million times stronger, but Warframe lacks the increase in enemy durability+mechanics to go along with the higher stats. If they're so intent on allowing just about anyone to do anything, they just need a lower gap between starting out and being geared. They already adjusted how the enemy scales, so it should be easier to do this at this point.

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