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Why we cant have endgame content


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hace 5 horas, Vespilan dijo:

For those of you who have been too busy picking their nose; The newest update to railjack has made the one endgame mode that we had, the one and only mode that posed a respectable challenge to player skill rather than just to weaponary, a whole lot easier. Again.
 

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players keep crying about how hard any new gamemode is because they haven't adapted to it yet, DE gives in and creates another grindzone. 

Man DE has always done that, yall remember Void Keys? ESO, and because players thought It was too hard DE made Sanctuary Onslaught?, Remember when DE said that beeing at night in PoE was going to be terrifiying? When they said Arbitrations was going to be for the endurance community with only 1 life?, Tennocon Kuva Lich? They even nerfed Fortuna...

Also it isn't only the community's fault, it isn't as if "casual players" are poiting a gun at DE, also I really wouldn't call any of them Endgame, Warframe has never had endgame, specially not RJ, for me RJ was just another grind.

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Actually it's only a handful of players that make topics like this.  Railjack was not endgame content sorry.  There's a difference between challenging and cheap.  Especially when said content is about as fun as watching paint dry.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Actually it's only a handful of players that make topics like this.  Railjack was not endgame content sorry.  There's a difference between challenging and cheap.  Especially when said content is about as fun as watching paint dry.

There is, but most people will call anything challenging cheap. 

If enemies hit hard- cheap

Enemies have high health - cheap

Enemies have CC- cheap

Enemies counter - cheap/

 

so what exactly do some of you mean by challenging? 

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5 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

If people want end game to be harder, why do we resist nerfs that set a reasonable if not standardized expectation for damage? When everyone can be prepared with nearly everything, there is no excuse but skill.. but we fight that. Why? Why, if the game is too easy, is there push back on nerfs? This whole debate is silly. You've always had the ability to have a harder time by straying from the meta, but people still take the few weapons/combinations that are, "little brother mode," powerful.

Why don't players use magnetic and blast damage if they want bullet sponges? Why don't players take frames that can't tank, nuke, DPS, or CC at top tier? That's the experience they're looking for, right? One that falls short, in order to challenge themselves? We don't see that. We don't see players who refuse Adaptation, or meta. What we do see, is players doubling down into the meta that breaks everything, saying, "Why is everything so easy to kill?" ...Well, for starters, probably because they took the combination that is certain to kill and win every time. Is it any wonder the game feels easy?

Meanwhile, I'm trying like hell (and failing) to beat a Rotation A Demolyst from Jupiter with a Magnetic/Toxin build on a Dera Vandal, and wondering how in the world anyone wants the game to be Harder. Too many combinations cannot work at all, too many work entirely too well, and DE can't achieve any parity between those because of people being opposed to nerfs, or having weapons they don't and won't ever use getting, "stats that make them too samey."

More importantly, they can't program any skilled combat interactions with the pace we expect. If you want a more challenging game, our players need to welcome that, by not demanding cheese strats, only taking nukes, paying through the nose for OP rivens on already OP weapons, or actually making an effort to engage with any mechanics beyond face tanking, god tier DPS, and movement speed. ..Since hardly anybody is doing that, and reducing that dependency bring backlash, is pretty apparent the community is speaking from both sides of it's mouth when it says it wants the game to be harder.
 

It is my understanding that warframe is a multiplayer game in its core, and not many people choose the solo mode very often. This means that you want to play with other players to fully enjoy the game. What you’re saying is that we should shoot ourselves in the knees and try to make the fame fun that way correct? Well the issue with that is that you can shoot yourself in the knees but the other three pubs won’t. You’re carrying a Dera Vandal while the other three are Bramma’s walking around with warframes stat sticks, you won’t get to use your Dera as much as you want to because the other nuking frames and nuking weapons will #*!% up any of the potential kills you we’re heading towards. 
 

The result is you getting 1-3% of the damage and 50 kills while they got 600+ kills. All because of the insane powercreep from weapons. The community will cry, vomit and scream when the bramma gets nerfed to oblivion and beyond, but why should it be? Why not buff all the peashooters instead? Is there any reason to pick a peashooter over anything ANYTHING else in this game? You’d be better off unequiping the primary and fighting them with bare abilities than wasting time shooting enemies with assault rifles. I honestly wish I could use them too because they’re funner than using a boom boom bow in my opinion, but if i don’t choose the AoE meta weapon its like I’m just walking through a tile-set with corpses from the other teammates; you don’t get to play the game essentially. 
 

 

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44 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There is, but most people will call anything challenging cheap. 

If enemies hit hard- cheap

Enemies have high health - cheap

Enemies have CC- cheap

Enemies counter - cheap/

 

so what exactly do some of you mean by challenging? 

Monster Hunter has almost all of that and is not cheap.  That's one example.  The raids in Destiny were a good example of challenging endgame (Destiny 1).  Mario, Donkey Kong Country, Contra, Streets of Rage etc.  Borderlands TVHM with different mayhem levels.  I can keep going but I doubt a real answer was ever wanted.  Sorry I and many others don't like railjack.

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What the hell? I loved railjack when it came out, and just got back yesterday and you're telling me it was made EASIER??????????

7 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Monster Hunter has almost all of that and is not cheap.  That's one example.  The raids in Destiny were a good example of challenging endgame (Destiny 1).  Mario, Donkey Kong Country, Contra, Streets of Rage etc.  Borderlands TVHM with different mayhem levels.  I can keep going but I doubt a real answer was ever wanted.  Sorry I and many others don't like railjack.

I'm assuming you're talking about Monster Hunter: World..... In which case play ANY of the other games and you'll see MHW is a cake walk compared to almost every other game in the series. It doesn't even count as challenging. And granted, I haven't played the new railjack system yet so I'll give it a try before having a solid opinion. But I found it great the way it was on release.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Actually it's only a handful of players that make topics like this.  Railjack was not endgame content sorry.  There's a difference between challenging and cheap.  Especially when said content is about as fun as watching paint dry.

You are absolutely correct. Railjack is Archwing content. Actually Railjack is the first Archwing content this game has. Railjack suggests the intention of unifying all the small island into one huge continuous whole. Right now the game requires memory, better hardware acceleration and more capable MP and almost a full 3d reconstruction if we want a continuous persistent world. This IS NOT going to happen ever. 

Railjack, is the first attempt of unifying few game play styles into a one 'pseudo continuous' experience. The content we've got was just beta testing so we give them the testing while they continue selling the classical content of Warframes, Weapons, Prime sets and Prime decorative packs. Never was intended as 'high end' material aimed at experienced players only. That was a false impression that such players got from Railjack. 

Does Raijack sucks? Yes, it sucks duodenum hard. The reason of this is quite simple, this is the first iteration of the Railjack in the beta testing program when we agreed with the EULA terms. We are simply testing ants. Recently DE revised Railjack extensively and there will be another wave of updates fixing other corners in it. After this we will get a more complete package of Railjack. It never was intended to be 'endgame content' in the context of this thread. 

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2 minutes ago, Taell said:

What the hell? I loved railjack when it came out, and just got back yesterday and you're telling me it was made EASIER??????????

I'm assuming you're talking about Monster Hunter: World..... In which case play ANY of the other games and you'll see MHW is a cake walk compared to almost every other game in the series. It doesn't even count as challenging. And granted, I haven't played the new railjack system yet so I'll give it a try before having a solid opinion. But I found it great the way it was on release.

Ok and railjack doesn't count as challenging to me lol.

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Just a few had even built or played their Railjack, and especially playing through the SS Murex stuff, there was definitely a need to update the stuff. Especially if they intend to include more RJ into the New War scenarios, they needed to get people more involved and not being frustrated with the basic mechanics.

 

There is still plenty of challenge for a fresh new Railjack and even while gearing up. But once I had a fairly decent ship build, I was rarely bothered by even the Veil missions. It was just tedious and time consuming, where now we can clear our enemies with a reasonable amount of time to effort.

 

The only real challenge that was and remains is the Sentient ship just due to their annoying mechanics. If you’ve got good weapons/mods, stuff was already dying just like anything else in the game. I’d like to see them adding more stuff, not making it more difficult for new players to get involved.

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il y a 8 minutes, SleepingVictors a dit :

 What you’re saying is that we should shoot ourselves in the knees and try to make the fame fun that way correct? Well the issue with that is that you can shoot yourself in the knees but the other three pubs won’t.

Not too long preface:

Révélation

It's now multiple railjack posts I make on warframe forums, I probably sound like I'm just fine with anything I'm being given. I'm not. I'm highly critical aswell, and I'm not satisfied with the state of Railjack. That's why I make whacky builds to keep the fun going, because Railjack isn't exactly enough when you're fully geared up.
But I'm also not ignoring the fact that more patches are coming. I want to look at what Digital Extremes planned, I want to hear more about the changes and modes coming our way.



In ground mission and archwing missions, you're right. In railjack, it's kinda wrong. Assuming you're hosting, you can "nerf" your ship to fit your own preferences regarding difficulty.

It's not 4 pubs anymore, it's 4 men in the same pub, but the host decides what gear the ship get. Like I said in my previous post, it highly affect the squad to change the ship gear.

People wonder what endgame is. It's simply the latest part of the game, which could be describe as the end of your journey in Warframe.
Technically, it just means latest content releases following player progression. But people don't want to call the end part of their journey bad so they'll just start making thread like this one, because to them endgame has to be a grand finale. The culmination of all the knowledge and technique you raised during your time in the game.

To some Railjack is the perfect spot and fit the description but it's not completed yet. We know more is coming. More modes, more scenarios, and more Railjack Revisited parts are on the way.

OP seems to want difficulty fitting for his own grand image of "EndGame Content" and get rewarded for it, using the latest content available. It's currently possible to alter the Avionic build to get more rewards at the cost of some slots that he may previously use to boost his stats instead, but it's not an idea he likes, understandably.
You wouldn't like someone asking you to remove some of your trophies to play the latest stuff when the rest of the game kept you building more and more, with forma and new game+, that's fair, no need to call anyone names for making well thought suggestions.

Scott said in the devstream from home:

Citation

Make railjack fun to play and then, once we have a good base, we can start adding onto it and making more game modes and hooking it in more game systems from the rest of the game.
Like liches, like we promised and relays... we have lot of ideas but I think getting the base right first is the better way to go.

This is public information. This is not a secret to anyone. This is quite obvious we'll have similar missions, inspired from ground and archwings. Give it enough time and you'll have a Challenging mode for railjack too. On ground we have alot of stuff to choose from: Arbitration, Sanctuary Onslaught, Index.

Most of the time, they're endless missions with specific rules. I don't see why we wouldn't get endless missions in Railjack aswell at some point. Now, making all those systems take time and lot more for them to work properly.
So if any player do want to play Railjack to challenge himself, currently, the only way is to bust your equipment, change the builds you got. It's not "plain stupid", it's just fact.
There's no Heroic mode, there's no Railjack Arbitration mode, there's no Survival or anything ok. All you have is this. Fact. And if that's not good for you then wait.

In the meantime, I suggest that all players willing to enjoy the mode to explore what we currently have, it's not the grand "EndGame Content" some of you were expecting, it's still on its way, but if you wish to enjoy your time in Railjack try all builds, watch all the spots you can go and use in the space tilesets, bend the rules to force your squad to play as a team instead of ignoring each other flying around with their Archwing.

To alot of players modding Railjack is like modding another warframe, which means that this ship to most of them is just "One new character setup", kind of.
Modding in warframe is fun because the base for our builds, the warframes have unique stats and abilities. Railjack is a huge kitgun warframe that you can mod constantly.
It's both one of his greatest strength and weakness:

-To those running one build only, it's kinda bland, it's like they only have one character to play. They feel like they've seen it all and want to stop playing lot sooner.
-To those running multiple builds trying all the avionics, it's like they have multiple characters. They experience a higher replayability and can find ways to enjoy themselves even when they expect lot more for the next updates.

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4 hours ago, SleepingVictors said:

What you’re saying is that we should shoot ourselves in the knees

There are many factors to why we feel the game is too easy.. yet we still do everything in our power to make that true.

At the core of this whole thing is
A) People experiencing weapons that are so underwhelming, and being grateful to have something that doesn't under-perform.
B) The sheer level of RNG and repeat tedium of completing objectives benefits from being able to cheese the mission into oblivion.
...However, when we do cheese everything into oblivion, the result is... More future RNG.

You can be a drop in the bucket that encourages that, or the one that doesn't. Usage statistics make a difference.. but aside from that.. the experience that you have in game, that you enjoy in game, is within your control. You can either make your game boring because, "Billy is going to jump off a bridge, and so I should, too," or, pick something that hits the way you want it to hit and still win, if a few seconds slower. I do not wish to debate whether you feel it's practical or not, but you are welcome to be the change you wish to see.. and in doing so, may help better understand what about that aspect of the game needs work in order to be brought into parity.
 

4 hours ago, SleepingVictors said:

Why not buff all the peashooters instead?


I agree they should have a buff in many present circumstances, however..  being bad in the first place is not so much from their stats. People pay money for, "the BEST thing," and that means it needs to kill everything.. then, it gets boring, and those users find themselves wanting slightly harder enemies to challenge it... then they want a new Best thing for Those enemies.. then new enemies... etc.. etc. The peashooters never caused this problem. To resolve it, do we just keep pace with power creeping? Do we raise them 15% every year ad-infinitum? Or do we resolve the glut that caused them to become useless to begin with? Little bit of both until it stabilizes.

We do not need enemies with an effective pool of ~5million health, as was just resolved with the Railjack ground units. There will need to be a 1-hit-kill weapon for the people who really just do not want challenge, whatsoever.. and I'm fine with that, so long as they don't want to power creep a new enemy to negate everything beneath that weapon. At some point as a player you have to consider, "do I want a 1-hit-kill-everything feel to my game or not?" That's up to you. You're still working cooperatively towards the same goals, aggro-ing the same enemies... it's still a benefit to have you there. Perhaps you even help set up that player for their kills to be a team player about it.. after all, being part of a team does not necessitate you kill stealing before they do.

The only trouble with not bringing those weapons, is the scope to which they have power-crept the game as it is, making less powerful options a detriment to the party's expected pacing. Consider, taking the most powerful thing every time creates the expectation that the game is designed to move that quickly.. which given all of the scenarios that are incapable of this, shows it isn't.. at least not exclusively. We get pigeon holed into taking meta because others take meta.. well, I have another approach to that. I don't.. and when an event or a new mission does not account for these discrepancies, their usage statistics will see an MR 18 either failing or abstaining from engaging with this content. The more people that do this out of principle, the more feedback they have that something is wrong, which matters to players. Too often, "You can just do it with X," is the only way to approach a certain game mode.. and we prove that the game mode works only through complying with that. ...we populate that mission, and judge it on that merit.. and DE gets no feedback related to any other options. I cannot believe that to truly be the way players wish to assess the game... and the only way to reinforce that concept is through practicing it.

I have posted plenty of threads about buffing lesser weapons, increasing less powerful damage types, and yes, nerfing down the heaviest hitters ONLY if they require obsolescing loadout/build diversity through newer more challenging enemies. We have too much challenge on some weapons.. so if you Truly want challenge, you can have it... and since that's considered, "shooting yourself in the knees," then DE has NOTHING to reinforce the fact that players Actually crave that.

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9 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

If you think bullet sponges and wasting players time is good game design, you're a bigger threat to this game than those "casuals" that you rag on about. Also, out of your goddamn mind. So, allow me to take a page out of your elitist book and tell you this: Take your elitist bulls*it elsewhere. As much as I rag on about people wanting challenge, at least they want something that could potentially benefit the game. You guys wanting bullet sponges are just plain stupid and insulting. To the community. To the devs. To the game. So either learn the difference between good game design and bullet sponges, or go away!

Is this the bullet sponges you're talking about?  ( video below is before this revised update )

Deleting fighters in 1-3 seconds with guns and destroying spawns with explosions is too spongy?

What threshold are you using to define spongy? I'm curious.

We now have people doing with seeker voley what we used to do with Munitions Vortex, only faster because ships spawn closer and faster. Seeker voley is fire and forget. Munitions Vortex required pilot skill to quickly jump from spawn to spawn.

They made it considerably easy, no skill required, no reason to aspire to get good equipment since anything basically works now.

It's good for the game overall, I agree, because the player base just isn't there to appeal for the added effort. Call them "casuals" or something else, it's just the difference between willing and able to put some effort, and not.

 

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2 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Is this the bullet sponges you're talking about?  ( video below is before this revised update )

Deleting fighters in 1-3 seconds with guns and destroying spawns with explosions is too spongy?

What threshold are you using to define spongy? I'm curious.

We now have people doing with seeker voley what we used to do with Munitions Vortex, only faster because ships spawn closer and faster. Seeker voley is fire and forget. Munitions Vortex required pilot skill to quickly jump from spawn to spawn.

They made it considerably easy, no skill required, no reason to aspire to get good equipment since anything basically works now.

It's good for the game overall, I agree, because the player base just isn't there to appeal for the added effort. Call them "casuals" or something else, it's just the difference between willing and able to put some effort, and not.

Look friend, what you're showing there is not something the majority of players were able to do. It looks to me like you have the top of the top tier equipment and using top cheese tactics to boot. Most people playing Railjack don't have top equipment, and it is likely some aren't aware or willing to use cheese tactics.

Yeah, it's possible to do what you've shown. Doesn't mean they have to make players completely miserable until they get to that point. I couldn't do what you did. Likely still can't, knowing my equipment. I shouldn't have to have top of the top tier equipment in order for Railjack to be bearable. No game should ever balance itself around what the top players can do, because most players can never achieve that. Not even in Warframe.

So you can call it lack of incentive to get better equipment and lack of will to get better, I call it being aware of the fact that Warframe's playerbase isn't made of esports gods.

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31 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Look friend, what you're showing there is not something the majority of players were able to do.

And thanks to the recent update, even more players can pull these things off more easily. 

31 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Warframe's playerbase isn't made of esports gods.

All he did in the vid was fly around and shoot at the munitions vortex? What is esports god about that? The ship is fast (and twice as fast now, btw) but that does not affect the strategy in the slightest. If anything, it is even unnecessary now due to closer enemy spawns

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vor 41 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

Yeah, it's possible to do what you've shown. Doesn't mean they have to make players completely miserable until they get to that point. I couldn't do what you did. Likely still can't, knowing my equipment. I shouldn't have to have top of the top tier equipment in order for Railjack to be bearable.

But he is playing the last "planet" in the game. In every game is the last level always the hardest and require the combination of the earned skills you earned before. Or do you expect that your starting gear can easily kill the hardest and most rewarding enemies? There is a reason why there are different planets with different enemy levels. The first is for the starters, who need to learn the basics and the last is for the one who acquired all the needed skills. 

That's just like in real life. If you didn't learn how to do a job and didn't have a qualification you can't expect that you will hired. At least not in my country.

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

No game should ever balance itself around what the top players can do, because most players can never achieve that. Not even in Warframe.

And on what should they balance? The starters? The middlers? What ever you do after a time everyone will become a top player automatically. It's not like that it's possible to stop the automatic learning.

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35 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Look friend, what you're showing there is not something the majority of players were able to do. It looks to me like you have the top of the top tier equipment and using top cheese tactics to boot. Most people playing Railjack don't have top equipment, and it is likely some aren't aware or willing to use cheese tactics.

Yeah, it's possible to do what you've shown. Doesn't mean they have to make players completely miserable until they get to that point. I couldn't do what you did. Likely still can't, knowing my equipment. I shouldn't have to have top of the top tier equipment in order for Railjack to be bearable. No game should ever balance itself around what the top players can do, because most players can never achieve that. Not even in Warframe.

So you can call it lack of incentive to get better equipment and lack of will to get better, I call it being aware of the fact that Warframe's playerbase isn't made of esports gods.

Actually you could solo Gian point with sub ten minute runs easily with clan tach mk 3 gear, and a handful of avionics that were not even maxed rank. Munitions wasn't required either you could always void hole and use seekers, with a warhead with only 2 ranks. There were a few different ways to do sub ten runs with next to nothing gear wise.

My collections finally complete..Warframe2680.jpg

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14 hours ago, Vespilan said:

Vague title, right? Been fiddling with it for a while.

For those of you who have been too busy picking their nose; The newest update to railjack has made the one endgame mode that we had, the one and only mode that posed a respectable challenge to player skill rather than just to weaponary, a whole lot easier. Again. Enemy fighter HP and armor have been halved and foot units have received nerfs as well. My question is; Why? Why does Warframe always have to appeal to a "casual" audience, to put it politely? Why does everything always have to be easy? Railjack was perfectly balanced and the trend to always appeal to bad, sorry but thats just how it is, players is why we cant have any endgame content.

I have heard that railjack veil proxima missions can now be solo'd in under five minutes thanks to seeker volley. DE; This is how stuff goes from content to grind, it gets boring because its just so ridicolously easy, just as on-foot missions. And with all this keep in mind, there is still the commander intrinsics tree coming up!

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players keep crying about how hard any new gamemode is because they haven't adapted to it yet, DE gives in and creates another grindzone. 

What they did recently for railjack is just fixing a flawed component. It is far from dropping something from endgame content. The whole railjack system is a chunk of stupid defects. I doubt that they fix all of them, but they did some of them.

What you said is no more than 'why DE fix the bug.' Why they should that? That's just because it's their job to do.

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30 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

That's just like in real life. If you didn't learn how to do a job and didn't have a qualification you can't expect that you will hired.

Last time I checked, games were a hobby, not something you need a resume for.

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vor 26 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

Last time I checked, games were a hobby, not something you need a resume for.

Allow me to correct my self a bit. If you don't know how to do your job you can't do your job well. And if you want to get better you have to learn and get more experience. 

Luckily in video game is the world easier. All you need to know can you learn just by playing the game. With other words. Getting experience. 

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Yes, but is it fun? Video games are not a job, and as we all know, jobs aren't fun.

The issue with Railjack is that it had a really bad progression curve. Solo was practically impossible at the beginning (you could do it by relying on the catastrophic failure timer, which I did, not very fun), so it simply turns people off from that game mode. You could argue "just get a squad!", but why would people be farming the first Earth node? You also shouldn't be required to grab people for the very first low level area in a piece of content. People should be able to get a taste of the content by themselves so they can go at their own pace, rather than feeling the pressure/stress/lack of freedom that being in a squad causes.

What they should have done was adjust railjack so you can begin to solo and build your ship up without too much difficulties, then the later nodes require you to farm stuff to progress or get in squads to do things well. This isn't how it worked though, as solo was impossible at the start, and then a joke later on once you got some key gear.

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Yes, but is it fun? Video games are not a job, and as we all know, jobs aren't fun.

The issue with Railjack is that it had a really bad progression curve. Solo was practically impossible at the beginning (you could do it by relying on the catastrophic failure timer, which I did, not very fun), so it simply turns people off from that game mode. You could argue "just get a squad!", but why would people be farming the first Earth node? You also shouldn't be required to grab people for the very first low level area in a piece of content. People should be able to get a taste of the content by themselves so they can go at their own pace, rather than feeling the pressure/stress/lack of freedom that being in a squad causes.

What they should have done was adjust railjack so you can begin to solo and build your ship up without too much difficulties, then the later nodes require you to farm stuff to progress or get in squads to do things well. This isn't how it worked though, as solo was impossible at the start, and then a joke later on once you got some key gear.

I thought the major issue was that getting good gear was RNG or wait 3 days for the dojo tech?

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1 hour ago, Vespilan said:

And thanks to the recent update, even more players can pull these things off more easily. 

And that's supposed to be a bad thing... how exactly?

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

But he is playing the last "planet" in the game. In every game is the last level always the hardest and require the combination of the earned skills you earned before.

You can get there and finish that mission with way worse equipment and skill than that though. I know, I did it, solo. Just cause it's the last mission in that portion of the game doesn't mean it is a genuine gear and skill check. And heck, if it was meant to be that, locking all that bollocks behind RNG kinda defeats the point and just makes the experience horrible for all involved. So I see no downside to the changes. If you have the skills and luck to get the top tier equipment, you'll finish the mission in a breeze, but if you don't have the luck, it ain't gonna be half an hour or more of agonizing pain, boredom and frustration, all due to the fact that enemies take (took) crapton of damage and there was nothing you can do about it.

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

That's just like in real life. If you didn't learn how to do a job and didn't have a qualification you can't expect that you will hired.

What Corvid said. Video games are entertainment, not jobs. If they fail to entertain, they have no reason to exist in the form they currently do.

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

And on what should they balance? The starters? The middlers?

The average player, yes.

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

What ever you do after a time everyone will become a top player automatically. It's not like that it's possible to stop the automatic learning.

What they always did to this game. Add more content to it. That's the benefit of it being an online game, there is no finish line, it's always moving further away from you.

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Endgame for warframe is very hard to produce especially when people min-max everything within a couple hrs of the release of new content.

If the players want ''endgame'' content and difficult content they should come up with a concept, an idea. and not just ask we want endgame content because you'll most likely be dissapointed in what DE provides as ''endgame content'' since DE has to cater towards the majority of the players, not that minority of min-maxers out there. Plus what is considered difficult anyways? In Warframe difficulty seems to only come from how hard enemies hit and how much health they have when honestly it should be something completely different. Difficult content shouldn't be how high enemies damage you but more about the mechanics involved in said piece of content. Eidolons used to be that content for awhile when they released but now we're years later and it's a complete joke. I honestly dont think we'll ever see the ''endgame'' like content people are looking for because first everyone thinks of endgame content as something different and second it's in DE's best interest to favor the majority of the players and get new players to play the game not some endgame raid content.Back when raids existed in Warframe it was barely played tho the people that did play it seemed to enjoy it. Tho it wasn't really a raid imo it was just a mission with more enemies barely any mechanical difficulty to it.

Even tho I'd love to see it, some proper endgame mechanically difficult content..  I just don't see it happening whatsoever.

 

Railjack has a potential to be difficult but there has to be scaling difficulty so everyone can play it but playing the higher difficulties would return more rewards/some high difficulty exclusive rewards compared to the lower difficulties. Such enemies with higher health/damage, more difficult mechanics, maybe new enemies that are high difficulty only with special abilities. new mechanics, more chaos, pretty much so much that you MUST have a proper team with communication to succeed.

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15 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

If people want end game to be harder, why do we resist nerfs that set a reasonable if not standardized expectation for damage? When everyone can be prepared with nearly everything, there is no excuse but skill.. but we fight that. Why? Why, if the game is too easy, is there push back on nerfs? This whole debate is silly. You've always had the ability to have a harder time by straying from the meta, but people still take the few weapons/combinations that are, "little brother mode," powerful.

Why don't players use magnetic and blast damage if they want bullet sponges? Why don't players take frames that can't tank, nuke, DPS, or CC at top tier? That's the experience they're looking for, right? One that falls short, in order to challenge themselves? We don't see that. We don't see players who refuse Adaptation, or meta. What we do see, is players doubling down into the meta that breaks everything, saying, "Why is everything so easy to kill?" ...Well, for starters, probably because they took the combination that is certain to kill and win every time. Is it any wonder the game feels easy?

Meanwhile, I'm trying like hell (and failing) to beat a Rotation A Demolyst from Jupiter with a Magnetic/Toxin build on a Dera Vandal, and wondering how in the world anyone wants the game to be Harder. Too many combinations cannot work at all, too many work entirely too well, and DE can't achieve any parity between those because of people being opposed to nerfs, or having weapons they don't and won't ever use getting, "stats that make them too samey."

More importantly, they can't program any skilled combat interactions with the pace we expect. If you want a more challenging game, our players need to welcome that, by not demanding cheese strats, only taking nukes, paying through the nose for OP rivens on already OP weapons, or actually making an effort to engage with any mechanics beyond face tanking, god tier DPS, and movement speed. ..Since hardly anybody is doing that, and reducing that dependency bring backlash, is pretty apparent the community is speaking from both sides of it's mouth when it says it wants the game to be harder.
 

I agree. Warframe needs a major revamp and revision tothe core if people want “endgame” and challenging content but don’t want to face all the nerfs major changes and balances that come with it. I’d love to see a day where Warframe can be balanced and challenging yet op like it is now to an extent. But we won’t. If anyone feels this way try bdo. The pvp is endgame and his. High skill game. Pve is pretty easy throughout with world bosses and some enemies being an exception. Overall it’s worth a try

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