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9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There is, but most people will call anything challenging cheap. 

If enemies hit hard- cheap

Enemies have high health - cheap

Enemies have CC- cheap

Enemies counter - cheap/

 

so what exactly do some of you mean by challenging? 

Because it has no proper balance and I do agree with you to an extent but  

enemies one shot-  de “that’s high dmg”

no sort of threat just death instantly

high health DE “bullet sponges”

its not cheap it’s teidous and they’ve done it so much

cc - it’s really nothing wrong with it tbh.

counters “ it’s usually a very hard counter that restricts gameplay at times” but personally I don’t see this as an issue as that’s their job 

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There is no reason why they nerfed Veil since it was the "endgame" zone for railjack. It was already doable with clan research items. I understand if they applied the nerfs to earth since it is where people start out with practically nothing, but nerfing saturn and veil is imo ass backwards since players will have enough gear to do them effortlessly by simply playing the mode.

If anything they should have upped the loot massively in earth and saturn proxima so people could gather and progress their gear in those zones in preperation for the next. While setting new gates for the proximas, where instead of an arbitrary intrinsic stat people would need a "gear score" based on their equipped items on the RJ.

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1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:
4 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

 

 

That's just like in real life. If you didn't learn how to do a job and didn't have a qualification you can't expect that you will hired.  

 

I want to speak about these two posts together. 

First the video:

That is the problem with what we have now. I call it sheer stupidity turned into a game. A mechanics like this doesn't deserve to be called a game. Once a pattern is devised there is no priority, preference, position or preservation. This example is more of a palindrome, the experience is the same at the end and the beginning. It makes no sense at all. This is more of a repetition without any difference in enemies other than a turtle shell that requires a beam cannon for the dispatch and enemies that behaves like suicide dumb brigades. This is simply a flat experience without diversity of enemies, no objects in space that changes the strategy, or an immersible stage that defines the pace and how problems are engaged. 

This is the type of gaming we see in almost all the Railjack. Sorry but this is not game design at all. Having good designers is one thing, having game developers is another. DE has a lot of artist and 3d modelers in the studio but for some odd reason they don't have game developers that deals with the interoperability of the game. Railjack is exactly Archwing content without a concrete development. This carries the staple of "get the Rail, get the the resources for the rail, craft the parts, update the mods and power creep" for a gaming experience that is mediocre to say the least. I'm not going to address the issue of RNG or XP gain. My goal with this critique will be the game play or execution of these actions when the player attains the top hardware. That game play of Railjack is still atrocious, a palindrome and even a retarded pleonasm. The cheer redundancy of actions and repetition of one strategy for capitalization shows a severe lack of game design on the strategies.

Let me show examples that does the opposite. In Boundary we are speaking of space movement and the repetition of the same action. What makes Boundary interesting is the Euler angles of rotation and displacement directions. Yes space is treated with six degrees of freedom instead of a place where there is a gas (air). When a game developer reduces the complexity of space movement as if the ship where in atmospheric flight, the game experience gets denaturalized. Boundary allows the player the six degrees of freedom. 

This is how the game play feels like. Warframe's Railjack "in space" can be compared to this if we think about space movement and the repetition of the same actions. The objects, background and the environment creates variability and interest on every encounter even if you consider bots as foes. Obviously this game engages human enemy pilots. If the enemies where bots, every encounter is different and situational due to the stage architecture. Being fair Boundary IS a power fantasy game because it still treat an oversimplified version of space. The only difference? The stage itself and the negotiations with it. 

Let me introduce another example: Doom Eternal. Yes I'm going to use it. This example treats engagement with cheer precision. Enemies shows different levels of threat, they require specific hits for the take down and they are not bullet sponges. If the player doesn't pull off the sequence combo, such frag on the enemy encounter becomes dangerous because the enemy can retaliate and even conclude the player with one shot. Yes, Warframe needs to one shot players more often and punish them for their mistakes and their mishaps pretending that their frames are "mighty". Doom eternal deal with fluidity of movement and fast pace traversing while you prioritize, study your position, preserve and deal with the preference of which enemy must be taken out first. In Railjack there is none of that. Every crew ship is the same. Each wave of fighters shows the same level of threat while in Doom Eternal leaving one enemy without proper attention means 'doom' for the player. 

In here the player shows a mastery skill in movement, proficiency switching weapons and aim precision without aim bots or aim assist. This player demonstrate high end maneuvers, speed and efficiency in the execution. This is totally the opposite of what such Railjack video illustrated. 

Another example that applies literally the idea of Warframe to a space game is Everspace 2. This game makes each encounter unique plunging the player into a massive persistent continuous world where the place itself defines the pace and the intensity of the engagement. Imagine Warframe with ships instead of frames, this is a loot RPG game too. Here the game uses similar mechanics but is based on exploration farming and action. Grinding happens and so the resource collection. Without much ado here is the video. 

Pay attention to the game play at 20:06. You still have a power fantasy game but you still retain the six degrees of freedom on the movement. With Railjack, the whole thing feels like a cow in space. Game play is restricted. The player can't pull off complex movements combining rotation, strafe and momentum physics. In space rotations are deeply important. Current space game designers consider this as an essential key element in the game play. Engagement depends on the stage and the waves of enemies. Collisions are important. Bad judgment is penalized. Unawareness of the stage is penalized. Warframe doesn't punish clumsiness. It should. 

Second part of this post:

"That's just like in real life. If you didn't learn how to do a job and didn't have a qualification you can't expect that you will hired.  "

Completely agree with this claim. A game should value strategy, plan and tactics. A game should value precision and exactness in execution. A game should penalize mistakes and wrong decisions. A game should put the player's skill to a test. A game should not reward players like a child or nurture them with cake walks. If an enemy is present in the game such enemy is dynamic and can pull strategies against the player. If the enemy is beaten down then the enemies NPCs can call for stronger units so the player gets one shoot'ed. This is what I call 'end game'. 

Yes. 'end game' is the culmination of a player with experience put to a test. Such player will test his skill, decisions and hardware against a horde of enemies that can terminate him. However the player can disengage without penalty or exclusion of rewards. Instead of increasing enemy health, shields or armor the enemy calls for special teams and bigger enemies that can be dispatched but the risk level increases. The enemy can one shot the player but the player can do the same. When this happens, the player distinguish between enemy types, enemy combos of different units and level of threats and risks in each engagement. 

Without being polite. If the player wants to stay he needs to get good with his skills, reflexes, pay load or hardware and live up with his decisions in his load out. Railjack only focuses on the grind and the acquisition. Once the player acquire the mods and ship there is no reward for his skills and level of proficiency. Hence there is no 'end game' for this type of player. Sorry but if you don't have the skills you don't get the pay. Simple as that. 

Games are not supposed to be a job of course. Failure is allowable. However games should test the player instead of being 'always friendly' all the time. 

 

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Honestly it would be better to bring back something like the old alert systems and raids and focuse on getting the warframe community more together as endgame content. The more the community is together with a bit less grind the better I think.

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10 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There is, but most people will call anything challenging cheap. 

If enemies hit hard- cheap

Enemies have high health - cheap

Enemies have CC- cheap

Enemies counter - cheap/

 

so what exactly do some of you mean by challenging? 

Answer:

Enemy types. 

Combo of enemy types and improvement on enemy behavior. Enemies learn from your patterns. 

Stronger enemy ensembles that can terminate the player if the player gets clumsy. Bad moves are punished. In other words enemies with stronger WEAPONS. 

Special teams. When the player or set of players dominates, they have to leave fast otherwise the enemy brings in the cavalry. 

 

Instead of bringing stronger turtle shells to shew, why not bring enemies that can be killed with the capacity to spank hard the player if he's not careful. In other words players must stop being whiny 'pussies'.  Skill should return. (sorry, had to do it) C

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il y a 25 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Instead of bringing stronger turtle shells to shew, why not bring enemies that can be killed with the capacity to spank hard the player if he's not careful. In other words players must stop being whiny 'pussies'.  Skill should return. (sorry, had to do it) C

These concepts already exist in ground missions so I'm expecting to see something spicy in Railjack in the future inspired from what we already have. At least.
Enemies Auras, Eximus immunity to specific damage, also giving them additional abilities, both defense ones and offensive ones. I'm hoping we get lot more than that, but I would expect eximus to make its way to Railjack if they want to do it the easy way.

ideally, it would be great if the latest part of the game was hard enough to not sleep it over.

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53 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I want to speak about these two posts together. 

First the video:

That is the problem with what we have now. I call it sheer stupidity turned into a game. A mechanics like this doesn't deserve to be called a game. Once a pattern is devised there is no priority, preference, position or preservation. This example is more of a palindrome, the experience is the same at the end and the beginning. It makes no sense at all. This is more of a repetition without any difference in enemies other than a turtle shell that requires a beam cannon for the dispatch and enemies that behaves like suicide dumb brigades. This is simply a flat experience without diversity of enemies, no objects in space that changes the strategy, or an immersible stage that defines the pace and how problems are engaged. 

This is the type of gaming we see in almost all the Railjack. Sorry but this is not game design at all. Having good designers is one thing, having game developers is another. DE has a lot of artist and 3d modelers in the studio but for some odd reason they don't have game developers that deals with the interoperability of the game. Railjack is exactly Archwing content without a concrete development. This carries the staple of "get the Rail, get the the resources for the rail, craft the parts, update the mods and power creep" for a gaming experience that is mediocre to say the least. I'm not going to address the issue of RNG or XP gain. My goal with this critique will be the game play or execution of these actions when the player attains the top hardware. That game play of Railjack is still atrocious, a palindrome and even a retarded pleonasm. The cheer redundancy of actions and repetition of one strategy for capitalization shows a severe lack of game design on the strategies.

Let me show examples that does the opposite. In Boundary we are speaking of space movement and the repetition of the same action. What makes Boundary interesting is the Euler angles of rotation and displacement directions. Yes space is treated with six degrees of freedom instead of a place where there is a gas (air). When a game developer reduces the complexity of space movement as if the ship where in atmospheric flight, the game experience gets denaturalized. Boundary allows the player the six degrees of freedom. 

This is how the game play feels like. Warframe's Railjack "in space" can be compared to this if we think about space movement and the repetition of the same actions. The objects, background and the environment creates variability and interest on every encounter even if you consider bots as foes. Obviously this game engages human enemy pilots. If the enemies where bots, every encounter is different and situational due to the stage architecture. Being fair Boundary IS a power fantasy game because it still treat an oversimplified version of space. The only difference? The stage itself and the negotiations with it. 

Let me introduce another example: Doom Eternal. Yes I'm going to use it. This example treats engagement with cheer precision. Enemies shows different levels of threat, they require specific hits for the take down and they are not bullet sponges. If the player doesn't pull off the sequence combo, such frag on the enemy encounter becomes dangerous because the enemy can retaliate and even conclude the player with one shot. Yes, Warframe needs to one shot players more often and punish them for their mistakes and their mishaps pretending that their frames are "mighty". Doom eternal deal with fluidity of movement and fast pace traversing while you prioritize, study your position, preserve and deal with the preference of which enemy must be taken out first. In Railjack there is none of that. Every crew ship is the same. Each wave of fighters shows the same level of threat while in Doom Eternal leaving one enemy without proper attention means 'doom' for the player. 

In here the player shows a mastery skill in movement, proficiency switching weapons and aim precision without aim bots or aim assist. This player demonstrate high end maneuvers, speed and efficiency in the execution. This is totally the opposite of what such Railjack video illustrated. 

Another example that applies literally the idea of Warframe to a space game is Everspace 2. This game makes each encounter unique plunging the player into a massive persistent continuous world where the place itself defines the pace and the intensity of the engagement. Imagine Warframe with ships instead of frames, this is a loot RPG game too. Here the game uses similar mechanics but is based on exploration farming and action. Grinding happens and so the resource collection. Without much ado here is the video. 

Pay attention to the game play at 20:06. You still have a power fantasy game but you still retain the six degrees of freedom on the movement. With Railjack, the whole thing feels like a cow in space. Game play is restricted. The player can't pull off complex movements combining rotation, strafe and momentum physics. In space rotations are deeply important. Current space game designers consider this as an essential key element in the game play. Engagement depends on the stage and the waves of enemies. Collisions are important. Bad judgment is penalized. Unawareness of the stage is penalized. Warframe doesn't punish clumsiness. It should. 

Second part of this post:

"That's just like in real life. If you didn't learn how to do a job and didn't have a qualification you can't expect that you will hired.  "

Completely agree with this claim. A game should value strategy, plan and tactics. A game should value precision and exactness in execution. A game should penalize mistakes and wrong decisions. A game should put the player's skill to a test. A game should not reward players like a child or nurture them with cake walks. If an enemy is present in the game such enemy is dynamic and can pull strategies against the player. If the enemy is beaten down then the enemies NPCs can call for stronger units so the player gets one shoot'ed. This is what I call 'end game'. 

Yes. 'end game' is the culmination of a player with experience put to a test. Such player will test his skill, decisions and hardware against a horde of enemies that can terminate him. However the player can disengage without penalty or exclusion of rewards. Instead of increasing enemy health, shields or armor the enemy calls for special teams and bigger enemies that can be dispatched but the risk level increases. The enemy can one shot the player but the player can do the same. When this happens, the player distinguish between enemy types, enemy combos of different units and level of threats and risks in each engagement. 

Without being polite. If the player wants to stay he needs to get good with his skills, reflexes, pay load or hardware and live up with his decisions in his load out. Railjack only focuses on the grind and the acquisition. Once the player acquire the mods and ship there is no reward for his skills and level of proficiency. Hence there is no 'end game' for this type of player. Sorry but if you don't have the skills you don't get the pay. Simple as that. 

Games are not supposed to be a job of course. Failure is allowable. However games should test the player instead of being 'always friendly' all the time. 

 

RJ controls are good enough, it doesnt have to compete with Doom and Everspace 2. I play space sim games, and honestly, RJ is is pretty standard. Its not the worst, and it isnt the best. You use a cursor and chase fighter craft. Many space sim games just boil down to that. 

RJ is actually cool how you can exit ship, board another ship and engage in ground combat. 

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5 minutes ago, STUVash said:

These concepts already exist in ground missions so I'm expecting to see something spicy in Railjack in the future inspired from what we already have. At least.
Enemies Auras, Eximus immunity to specific damage, also giving them additional abilities, both defense ones and offensive ones.
I'm hoping we get lot more than that, but I would expect eximus to make its way to Railjack if they want to do it the easy way.

ideally, it would be great if the latest part of the game was hard enough to not sleep it over.

This is very likely to happen. Yes it probably happen. Rail jacks are treated like War frames if we consider the mods, farming and XP.

Sidenote:

The main problem that I see with War frame is the excess of focus on the RNG, low XP gains and Artificial Grinding, excessive and exaggerated time gates on everything. When the player finds short cuts, DE punishes with bans, gimps and nerfs.  Yes balances and design decisions are taken into account but we get caught in the cat and mouse game forged via the stick and carrot system. 

On your comment: 

Yes we want that to happen. Probably it will. DE moves fast and precise with the mods and these items. I'm sure it will get better. Mods turns War Frame into useful tools or useless sticks for the shelf. Rail jack begs for a wider exploitable environment, hazards, different enemy types and gigantic structures. War frame is a game that takes time evolving while DE tackles the problem of such growth. Rail jack needs more ships instead of one with different turtle carapaces decorative shells. The game requires the adjustment of SCALE  on Rail Jack to a reasonable believable size. It must feel right. I think it is way too big in the interior but in size looks like a small fighter. This thing needs to be huge if the interior feels huge or at least the interior must match the scale of the exterior. 

Every aspect of War Frame should have a small portion of 'end game'. In other words. The game doesn't exclude players but those who wants the challenge the missions are available showing up more than just 'cheap enemy leveling on health, armor, shields and hit capacity'. If users spend time customizing, farming and going through the RNG, such reward should be a dynamic intense experience that the game provides. This is the balancing we at least seek when we play this game. 

The end game of Rail Jack should be defined by the variety of enemies, the increase difficulty on levels that asks the player more skill doing maneuver and 'quick thinking', and no that is not a pun. It should reward quick reflexes, awareness of the space and split decision making. 

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Or you could realize that one shotting bullet sponges that have become synonymous with challenge in PvE games today, only exists to make you feel like you didn't waste your time grinding hundreds of hours to max out your gear. These days its all about game devs creating a problem(overpowered players), and then selling those players cheap solutions to make them feel validated(1HKOing bullet sponges). Put a shiny carrot on stick in the form of rare drops in front of that wagon and you have players claim that this farce is "endgame", feeding this trend further.

I suggest you go back and look at the game mechanical definition of endgame. Endgame in the classical sense is the state of a game that takes place after players are at their full potential and there is no more progression to be had. No more gear grind, no more upgrades. That's it. You are at 100% of your potential. The other, more modern criteria for endgame is that it is a set of game mechanics designed to allow the player to repeat the same content endlessly, and make endless progress. Not repeat 10 times, 100 or a thousand times. Endgame means endlessly replaying a piece of content and making progress of some sort, in some way.

In PvP games of yore that was dealt with by just letting players fight each other forever. The slight variation from match to match, along with the in ability to improve your skill was enough of an intrinsic reward for people to keep playing. In PvE, with the rise of online capabilities, game companies decided in the early 2000s to move away from designing endgame systems around intrinsic rewards(play because its fun) and go towards an extrinsic model(play because you want X). Problem is, unless you design extrinsic rewards in PvE endgame with the ability to progress the stats endlessly, it's not really endgame. There will be a top level, and players will reach it, and then complain again. In addition, this extrinsic endgame reward design has massive drawbacks baked into its core principles. If game developers allow players to become more powerful without an artificial limit, not only would any semblance of game balance go out the window, but the actual content they need to put players through would be shallow, repetitive grind that burns out any but the most obsessive people. These two things, the eternal power creep and the super boring, repetitive grind just for a quick "thrill" of doing more damage before the player gets used to it and wants more is what that the developer needs to keep addressing if they choose to design their game that way.

This is what you see everywhere today, Warframe included. True, most games don't allow players to become infinitely strong, but they do inch the power creep forward little by little, giving players just enough bait to go through hundreds of mindless repetitions until they reach that new "high", revel in the fleeting sense of having truly achieve something.

Why then do game devs do this and don't create a truly fulfilling PvE endgame that tickles the PvE player in the same way matches tickle the PvP player? Cause one - it's a lot easier, and two - it makes players dependent on developers getting new bait out for them to hunt.

There are ways to create a fulfilling PvE endgame that doesn't exploit power creep and make players artificially addicted. But not only would that mean game devs would have to give up their power over the desire of conditioned, power hungry players, but they'd also have to work a lot hard than creating a bunch of new, slightly more powerful weapons and putting them behind a 100 hour grind wall.

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8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

RJ controls are good enough. 

 

Are you serious? 

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

it doesnt have to compete with Doom and Everspace 2. I play space sim games, and honestly, RJ is is pretty standard. Its not the worst, and it isnt the best. You use a cursor and chase fighter craft. Many space sim games just boil down to that. 

Yes but in space you do rotations or deal with the Euler angles. You have the issue of the orientation of space and the relativity of what is up and down. In space you MUST not distinguish with what is up and down. War frame doesn't have to compete of course. Moreover it doesn't have to abandon the style. War frame will forever be War frame. We do not disagree with that. But my discussion is about immersible elements that tries delivering a 'genuine' experience to it. 

But in space you have momentum mechanics, moment of inertia, torque and impulse. There is something we call physics, sorry for my sarcasm. Yes, you may not create a simulator but at least in this rigid body mechanics there are some aspects of fun which allows developers takes advantage of such attributes. 

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

RJ is actually cool how you can exit ship, board another ship and engage in ground combat. 

That is one of the things that Doom Eternal, Everspace 2, and Boundary lacks. Exactly that. A game that does this is called Titan Fall 2. Stages deals with two simultaneous scales. The scale of the titan and the scale of the pilot. The zone of engagement is multi layered. When I get out my ship is like having the same ship with more speed and weaker guns except melee combat. 

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13 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Or you could realize that one shotting bullet sponges that have become synonymous with challenge in PvE games today, only exists to make you feel like you didn't waste your time grinding hundreds of hours to max out your gear. These days its all about game devs creating a problem(overpowered players), and then selling those players cheap solutions to make them feel validated(1HKOing bullet sponges). Put a shiny carrot on stick in the form of rare drops in front of that wagon and you have players claim that this farce is "endgame", feeding this trend further.

I suggest you go back and look at the game mechanical definition of endgame. Endgame in the classical sense is the state of a game that takes place after players are at their full potential and there is no more progression to be had. No more gear grind, no more upgrades. That's it. You are at 100% of your potential. The other, more modern criteria for endgame is that it is a set of game mechanics designed to allow the player to repeat the same content endlessly, and make endless progress. Not repeat 10 times, 100 or a thousand times. Endgame means endlessly replaying a piece of content and making progress of some sort, in some way.

In PvP games of yore that was dealt with by just letting players fight each other forever. The slight variation from match to match, along with the in ability to improve your skill was enough of an intrinsic reward for people to keep playing. In PvE, with the rise of online capabilities, game companies decided in the early 2000s to move away from designing endgame systems around intrinsic rewards (play because its fun) and go towards an extrinsic model (play because you want X). Problem is, unless you design extrinsic rewards in PvE endgame with the ability to progress the stats endlessly, it's not really endgame. There will be a top level, and players will reach it, and then complain again. In addition, this extrinsic endgame reward design has massive drawbacks baked into its core principles. If game developers allow players to become more powerful without an artificial limit, not only would any semblance of game balance go out the window, but the actual content they need to put players through would be shallow, repetitive grind that burns out any but the most obsessive people. These two things, the eternal power creep and the super boring, repetitive grind just for a quick "thrill" of doing more damage before the player gets used to it and wants more is what that the developer needs to keep addressing if they choose to design their game that way.

This is what you see everywhere today, Warframe included. True, most games don't allow players to become infinitely strong, but they do inch the power creep forward little by little, giving players just enough bait to go through hundreds of mindless repetitions until they reach that new "high", revel in the fleeting sense of having truly achieve something.

Why then do game devs do this and don't create a truly fulfilling PvE endgame that tickles the PvE player in the same way matches tickle the PvP player? Cause one - it's a lot easier, and two - it makes players dependent on developers getting new bait out for them to hunt.

There are ways to create a fulfilling PvE endgame that doesn't exploit power creep and make players artificially addicted. But not only would that mean game devs would have to give up their power over the desire of conditioned, power hungry players, but they'd also have to work a lot hard than creating a bunch of new, slightly more powerful weapons and putting them behind a 100 hour grind wall.

 

 

BINGO!!!!

 

THIS MAN GETS IT. He gets it. 

 

Extrinsic game play is the main issue that stops this game having 'end game'. Intrinsic game play is thrown aside because this is a service game. Now we are getting somewhere in this conversation. 

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il y a 21 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

But in space you have momentum mechanics, moment of inertia, torque and impulse. There is something we call physics

Previous Archwing had that, most people struggled to play around it. It wasn't exactly easy but it was quite fun once you mastered it.

il y a 4 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Intrinsic game play is thrown aside because this is a service game. Now we are getting somewhere in this conversation. 

So now that you get the issue is bound to the core of the game. What do you do ?

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4 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

you have the top of the top tier equipment and using top cheese tactics to boot. Most people playing Railjack don't have top equipment, and it is likely some aren't aware or willing to use cheese tactics.

I'm using very good equipment to play the hardest content there is. I don't see how is that a problem now.

I assume you're an old player at the game. Let me ask  you, when you do hardest content on regular Warframe do you use beginner "equipment"?

Do you play without your primed mods, 60/60s etc? Without nice stances, aura formas? Do you play with your MK1 Braton?

I remember well that it took me months to get that good "equipment" and get Endo to rank them all up.

I remember the endless double weeks waiting for Baro to bring more Prime mods and those juicy 60/60s.

I remember the countless hours farming defense/excavation and whatnot missions to get even fairly common stuff I needed to use the "builds" that people recommended back in the day.

I also remember how good it felt from progressing from hiding in corners and shooting grineer to actually be able to easily do the hardest content in Warframe. This is called a rewarding progression system that gives players the sense that they have achieved something.

I would ask you, out of curiosity, because this isn't really that different, what changed between then and now, that this progression and grind was welcomed and acceptable, and now is not.

But you are correct, sort of, and that's exactly what I said previously, Warframe has shifted quite a lot to a more casual game play, and a lot of people just aren't willing to put that effort anymore. And by "casual" I mean as measured by the effort you're willing or able to put in, NOT as a pejorative term. Some people just can't be bothered, or don't have the time to invest. There's nothing wrong with that.

But, you know, like most things in game, if you don't want to put that effort, you can always buy the missing items from others. I have 7x Munition Vortex, happy to give you free of charge.

4 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

I shouldn't have to have top of the top tier equipment in order for Railjack to be bearable

I would counter that with: you should't be able to cheese hardest content in the game with crap gear and avionics that are very common drops on the easiest missions on Earth, like you can now, but YMMV.

4 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

No game should ever balance itself around what the top players can do

I am definitely NOT a top player. A top player could do what I did faster than what's on that video. A top squad was already able to clear hardest Veil node ( including PoIs ) in 4 minutes.

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2 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Let me ask  you, when you do hardest content on regular Warframe do you use beginner "equipment"?

But I never said anything about using beginner equipment. Average equipment is more like it. Problem is, the average Railjack equipment was so bad in comparison to the best.

5 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I also remember how good it felt from progressing from hiding in corners and shooting grineer to actually be able to easily do the hardest content in Warframe. This is called a rewarding progression system that gives players the sense that they have achieved something.

Yup, I also remember that. Warframe is one of the most rewarding games I've ever played. However...

7 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I would ask you, out of curiosity, because this isn't really that different, what changed between then and now, that this progression and grind was welcomed and acceptable, and now is not.

The reason Warframe is one of the most rewarding games I've played, but Railjack is not is quite simple: I enjoyed the grind of Warframe. I did not enjoy the grind of Railjack. No matter how bad I was back at the beginning when I played Warframe, the game rewarded me enough to make me feel like I was progressing somewhere. Not Railjack. The requirements for good items were insanely high, the time to kill was too long with bad to average equipment, rarely have I ever felt like I was making progress, and whenever I did, there was a wall of RNG stopping me in my tracks again. To this day I am stuck with a stupid Sigma Mark 3 reactor from the clan research, because no reactor with more than 50 capacity ever dropped. I literally couldn't progress thanks to that. So, how would I be able to enjoy this type of grind when there was nothing I can do to help with the progress stoppers? At  least in Warframe, if I didn't get a single Crimson Dervish drop for 3 years but suddenly needed it for Broken War, I could buy it. There's no way to alleviate that in Railjack. Warframe has good progression that made sure there are ways around roadblocks. Railjack had nothing like that. That's the difference.

16 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I would counter that with: you should't be able to cheese hardest content in the game with crap gear and avionics that are very common drops on the easiest missions on Earth, like you can now, but YMMV.

I mean, I did also say in the past that Archwings should be nothing but transport in Railjack, but people jumped at my throat for it, so... meh.

17 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I am definitely NOT a top player. A top player could do what I did faster than what's on that video. A top squad was already able to clear hardest Veil node ( including PoIs ) in 4 minutes.

You're far better than me. 8 minutes versus the 30-40 it usually took me. You can clearly see who's a top player here and who's an average joe.

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Best part of Railjack is repair ship and shot with Omega 😄

The rest is just a chaotic revisitation of R-Type.

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1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

-snip-

Pretty much all of this. They might have just kept the route of making us more powerful over the last few years since that it’s probably convenient for them since they are just used to designing the game a certain way and likely don’t want to change that.

All that aside though, if the devs want an actual endgame in Warframe, then what will need to happen is that they need to address the fundamental broken systems that are in place in-game at the moment. Namely the damage system and how insanely powerful we can get and trivialize any bit of content that is thrown our way. You could also argue about the energy system as well. Should there be a cool down on abilities so that it can’t be spammed like it currently is? Not only that but what about the enemy engagement as well? Most enemies in the game are just plain boring and have no enemy engagement and doesn’t challenge the players thinking which shouldn’t be the case. What I’m trying to say is that there is obviously so many things wrong in this game that they would need to address and that would require them to change the game from the ground up basically.

Regardless though, I’d say it’s more than likely that they are just going to keep the game the same since that’s a staple of design that they’ve been doing for a few years now. Who knows though, I could be wrong and maybe they actually do want to have an endgame but I’m not DE so I have no idea.

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10 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I would counter that with: you should't be able to cheese hardest content in the game with crap gear and avionics that are very common drops on the easiest missions on Earth, like you can now, but YMMV.

 

This is all im asking really. I want the game to present a challenge when i have the best of the best. Im not asking it to be unforgiving. I understand that this is a "power fantasy" to some, but whats the point if you know you practically cant lose? Dont some of you want to feel like there is some kind of risk involved when playing and that your skill and aquired gear is what got you through? Is this an alien concept to some gamers now?

I'm going to give it time though. Maybe DE is waiting to expand RJ before making "endgame" content for it. I still enjoy it and i still have some progression to make. 

7 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

To this day I am stuck with a stupid Sigma Mark 3 reactor from the clan research, because no reactor with more than 50 capacity ever dropped. I literally couldn't progress thanks to that. So, how would I be able to enjoy this type of grind when there was nothing I can do to help with the progress stoppers? At  least in Warframe, if I didn't get a single Crimson Dervish drop for 3 years but suddenly needed it for Broken War, I could buy it. There's no way to alleviate that in Railjack. Warframe has good progression that made sure there are ways around roadblocks. Railjack had nothing like that. That's the difference.

I mean, I did also say in the past that Archwings should be nothing but transport in Railjack, but people jumped at my throat for it, so... meh.

You're far better than me. 8 minutes versus the 30-40 it usually took me. You can clearly see who's a top player here and who's an average joe.

i can kind of see what you're saying here. Rj does feel like progression just stops if you dont have the proper gear. That feeling of hitting a wall is not encouraging.

I just hope that as the RJ develops we get missions that rely more on our skill and decision making than just numbers. In WF, even with beginning gear, it felt like i could at least skill my way through the hardest content. railjack is missing that fine balance of hiding the gear check. 

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5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

The reason Warframe is one of the most rewarding games I've played, but Railjack is not is quite simple: I enjoyed the grind of Warframe.

Exactly. Completely agree, this is the core reason that isn't mentioned enough.

Railjack grind and chasing good equipment was never too much to begin with, it's just that for a lot of people it isn't fun to do. Especially for old/veteran players that already have the best of the best of everything and are suddenly presented with a "new game" that they have to start and learn from scratch.

But instead of focusing on making it more interesting and fun, DE opted for making it brain dead easy, so that for people that don't really enjoy playing it can at least be bearable, so they can "finish" with it and get it over with. 

And as a result, people can complete all content with just regular stuff in a day or two, and chasing good equipment is pretty much a moot goal now, hence failing at a ( for me, so IMHO ) aspect: progression, sense of achievement and value of rewards.

 

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Reviewing the concepts:

AuroraSonicboom's post (I would like to call this smart man for his real name) settles the variables and the parameters for the correct discourse in this thread. There is the problem of churn where retention and acquisition requires attention. Then we have another piece of the puzzle that deals with Intrinsics (play for the item you want) and extrinsics (play because the experience is fun). Someone in the previous pages, mention the issue of engagement. The engagement with the enemy defines the level of immersion. This phenomenon is parameterized with the four Ps (Position, Preservation, Preference and Priority). This argument plays a central role on how the player enjoys the consumption of the new content. In the other hand we have the issue of rate of consumption versus the rate of production. Does the RNG, XP gains and Time gates prolongs artificially the content through a wall of a "one hundred grind wall"? Is this an abused crutch that evades the problem excusing the laziness of the developer? 

Stating the problem:

I think this conversation will get dipper solving this puzzle. This deserves a more academic, critical and exhaustive analysis. I agree with Greydeath, we have to throw away concepts of Novice player, Expert player or the dull discussion of "Novice versus Veteran". I would like to know more about game design but I'm not even an enthusiast at it. This is a problem that is solved throughout a consensus on "what should be the end game?" and "where we want this game to go?". 

Sketch of a proposals and brain storming:

I will try to establish few principles that emerged in this discussion. All of these arguments affects PASSIVELY and ACTIVELY the 'end game' if any or if DE cares for the satisfaction of their customers. 

1. Effort should be rewarded not through 'rewarded items' but more oriented to 'rewarded experiences' when a mastery of a technique is attained OR many techniques are attained. 

2. The lazy traditional crutch of increasing the enemy's hit point, shield, armor and health must evolve into something more substantial such as variety of enemies, increase in risk level, new encounters and sophistication in the enemy A.I. behavior. 

3. The concept of reconnaissance and military accuracy is missed in Rail Jack. Yes, the military matters and how the military thinks increases the level of immersion. The military mind in combat where decision making, quick reaction and precision/skill/execution demands must be factored in the design process of this game. An enemy sees or 'study' the capabilities of the player in real time by an event or a fight. 

4. Since this thread deals with Rail Jack, we stick with Rail Jack. Yes, a ship in space should behave like a ship in REAL SPACE. Atmospheric flight and underwater 'swim' are different ways of traversal. They should be distinguished. 

5. My architectural background pushed me to write this one. THE STAGE MATTERS. THE STAGE DEFINE THE PACE. THE STAGE DEFINES THE STRATEGY, THE STAGE ARCHITECTURAL DYNAMICS and TRANSFORMABILITY makes the grind worthy. The game should INTRODUCE THE UNEXPECTED HAPPENING MORE OFTEN. 

a) Actuators. Activating favorable triggers in the stage that helps you in battle. 

b. Dynamic lifts, robotics, changing conditions, hazards. 

See game play 1:22:00 to 2:00:00. 

Why hydron can't be similar to this? 

c. Placements of aids that does the job and delivers damage. Instead of mindless dumb clones add on them an important role. These could be better walking gun turrets, a set of few clones instead of one and commands on these clones like attack, defend, hold position and move towards way point. Kubros and Excalibur Umbra, Wukong clone acts on their own. A bit more of control gives a deeper diversity every time people grinds. 

d. Level architecture: Instead of running like a retarded autistic spasmodic schizophrenic hamster mouse (yes I hate Hammond, Wreaking ball) in a maze why not the stage provides a wider articulation and variability of the fixed layout. For example the tile set of Jupiter versus the tile of Hydron. Stages could get more vertical, less claustrophobic and more flexible for jumping around instead of being a "xenomorph" snaking the tunnels. 

Hydron's and Akkad designs sucks _______ hard and deep. I can't stress this hard enough. "Good level design constantly teaches something new"

Source Ten Principles for Good Level Design, youtube game developer conference. 

e. The use of orientation and anti gravity. Crysis 1 had a 'free space' level where the player negotiate movement in zero g. Even in movie like aliens the camera chases the alien doing a full 360 horizon flip in the line of sight. If we are going to run 'wall snapping' like Lucio in Overwatch why not sometimes flip upside down when the warframe lashes, climb and run over the walls. And hey if Hydron is inside a ship in space, why there is no ZERO G? 

6. Yes, frame of reference dynamics. Not war frame but 'frames of references'. If the Rail Jack is moving pulling up g maneuvers then everything insight that is not tied or fixed should start rebounding everywhere. If the Rail Jack gets invaded the pilot most stop and attend the invaders. If piloting continue then the rest of your crew will eventually get hurt because they rebounded harder than a table tennis ball between walls. Yes, collisions. I know that DE is allergic to collisions however they are super important in level design and 'another awareness of difficulty'. 

There. 

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It's not that I don't empathize w your post, it's just that I'm so apathetic w the same cyclic issues in Warframe that will never change. "Rewarding gameplay" "Challenge" "fun", same words around a revolving door of the same issue that in all honesty isn't that elusive to those out of time w the frustration. The amount of energy spent on the topic, to see it really going nowhere in terms of development understanding (or rather acknowledging) what's wrong with the gameplay experience has grown stale. It's not some big mystery problem to figure out anymore, knuckles are simply being dragged and so much development was "doubled down" on ideas avoidant of these issues that now we are in a state of arrival and risk even less likely to have the issues addressed.

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6 hours ago, ikkabotz said:

It's not that I don't empathize w your post, it's just that I'm so apathetic w the same cyclic issues in Warframe that will never change. "Rewarding gameplay" "Challenge" "fun", same words around a revolving door of the same issue that in all honesty isn't that elusive to those out of time w the frustration. The amount of energy spent on the topic, to see it really going nowhere in terms of development understanding (or rather acknowledging) what's wrong with the gameplay experience has grown stale. It's not some big mystery problem to figure out anymore, knuckles are simply being dragged and so much development was "doubled down" on ideas poorly received that now we are in a state of arrival and risk even less likely to have addressed.

Perfect post. (You edited it. Let me expand in it)

Fun needs a scientific precise game design definition. Rewarding game play needs a definition and examples, challenge needs a definition and examples. 

Let me quote our old friend Albert Einstein. 

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

“Not everything that counts can be counted.”, for example fun. 

DE needs to put commitment into those words so it doesn't end in that revolving door of four sheets. DE is not listening to the community, that is why we hare here discussing something that was supposed to be solved. The apathy of these players grows because things stays the same. We got excited about a new feature in the game that ended inheriting the same issues the game has. The problem that we are facing is harder because we don't have a consensus on what is end game and we failed as a community to have a one voice on this topic. 

Sometimes Warframe is the punishment many of you deserve for not having one clear voice on the matter. It feels like the jack of all trades being the master of none while progression is substituted for RNG. In other words we reap what we saw. DE and the community are thinking in different directions. Raijack happened because of this. DE mistakes are multiplying in the progression of Railjack. Hence the apathy will grow and people will simply leave this having LUNARO part 2. 

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il y a 27 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

. If piloting continue then the rest of your crew will eventually get hurt because they rebounded harder than a table tennis ball between walls. Yes, collisions. I know that DE is allergic to collisions however they are super important in level design and 'another awareness of difficulty'.

I mean, ideally all these ideas aren't bad but Digital Extremes already thought about that. First railjack iteration had lot of shocks and turbulence to simulate the intensity of the battles.
Player response was that it was sickening.
No one is "allergic to collisions" it's a matter of performance issues. You don't want to increase the cost of Railjack needlessly when players already complained about the first iteration being a mess with shocks and effects.

You could ask for animations giving the impression that some items have collisions with the ground, since we have fixed railjack rooms for now, it sounds rather easy, but please do not make realtime collision a thing. Leave our performance for cooler things than that.

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6 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I want to speak about these two posts together. 

Just want to point out some things as someone that has played space sims since the old wing commander (the great grand daddy of the postponed beyond insanity Star Citizen) games and several others. You are missing a few things, there is a massive difference between a game designed for realistic space combat, a game that implements it as an "arcade" mode just as there are massive differences between the technological state of the universe depicted, aswell as the massive differences between a fighter and a larger class ship.

WF has both the "arcade" mode implementation aswell as having us not fly fighters, and being set in a universe/time of space magic and other things that defy the laws of physics. I mean, we can double jump and change direction mid air as frames, when such a thing is present I dont expect space combat to be physics correct either. Just as you can also see when you compare something like Star Wars or Star Trek to Babylon 5. the two first mentioned are very arcady in their depiction of space combat, though Star Trek tries to sound scientifically correct in a sci-fi manner. Babylon 5 however tries to implement real laws of physics in the script and scenes, opening up for some very cool and different combat situations for the show, like fighters sliding in space etc. in their manouvers.

I dont think anyone claims that neither the SW or ST shows, nor the several upon several games from those frenchises are poorly made, even though neither of them really manages to capture the physics that you can experience in an oldie but goodie such as Wing Commander for instance. Railjack is closer to WC even in its arcady state when it comes to space physics than it is to SW or ST games. The only real flaw in RJ is actually the "fake horizon" that keeps pulling your ship back to a specific horizontal level, other than that it is a pretty well made "simulator" compared to many big games out there that have done their thing for soon 30 years, atleast if you are looking for something that is less arcady and more real. Then sure, we have the stop-on-a-dime archwings, but I'll just sign that off as more void space magic that defies the laws of physics, like the forementioned double jumping and changing direction mid air with our frames.

edit: I would be all onboard with a very realistic version of RJ, but I doubt many in the WF community shares that view, so I'll gladly accept the more arcade version we have, that fits in with the rest of the game already when it comes to ease of use. I wouldnt mind needing 30 buttons and a joystick to fly my RJ properly and have access to all different subsystems that might be needed. But if that was what I was looking for in WF I'd probably go and play an actual space sim to begin with and not WF or a Star Wars/Trek game.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just want to point out some things as someone that has played space sims since the old wing commander (the great grand daddy of the postponed beyond insanity Star Citizen) games and several others. You are missing a few things, there is a massive difference between a game designed for realistic space combat, a game that implements it as an "arcade" mode just as there are massive differences between the technological state of the universe depicted, aswell as the massive differences between a fighter and a larger class ship.

The discussion was only on the mobility and the six degrees of freedom in space movement. We are not speaking about the tensor of inertia at all or a full implementation of a vector simulation of movement. Second, take your time reading and understanding what argument says. Ever Space 2 and Boundary doesn't use realistic space combat dynamics. Even games like Star Citizen 42 fails on many physics principles. The discussion is the maneuverability and the negotiation of the pace in space. You are mixing a discussion about lore and cannon that has nothing to do with the game play mechanics. 
 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF has both the "arcade" mode implementation aswell as having us not fly fighters, and being set in a universe/time of space magic and other things that defy the laws of physics. I mean, we can double jump and change direction mid air as frames, when such a thing is present I dont expect space combat to be physics correct either. Just as you can also see when you compare something like Star Wars or Star Trek to Babylon 5. the two first mentioned are very arcady in their depiction of space combat, though Star Trek tries to sound scientifically correct in a sci-fi manner. Babylon 5 however tries to implement real laws of physics in the script and scenes, opening up for some very cool and different combat situations for the show, like fighters sliding in space etc. in their manouvers.

In other words you throw your own post away. Game mechanics draws principles on physics. It doesn't have to simulate a physical state of a system in a video game. Simulation is not the intention of video games, however immersion is. Game designers draws properties of the space adding a sense of immersion otherwise the game will end up being another version of a classical Sega game called Fantasy Zone. 
 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think anyone claims that neither the SW or ST shows, nor the several upon several games from those frenchises are poorly made, even though neither of them really manages to capture the physics that you can experience in an oldie but goodie such as Wing Commander for instance. Railjack is closer to WC even in its arcady state when it comes to space physics than it is to SW or ST games. The only real flaw in RJ is actually the "fake horizon" that keeps pulling your ship back to a specific horizontal level, other than that it is a pretty well made "simulator" compared to many big games out there that have done their thing for soon 30 years, atleast if you are looking for something that is less arcady and more real. Then sure, we have the stop-on-a-dime archwings, but I'll just sign that off as more void space magic that defies the laws of physics, like the forementioned double jumping and changing direction mid air with our frames.

Maneuverability is one of the problems that the Rail Jack has. It behaves like a brick. When there is so much technology at least there should be some sort of thrusting and some degrees of freedom controlling the ship. The game play over simplify these degrees of freedom. Why jet fighters behaves like airplanes in space when there is no gas. They don't have to encounter frictional forces. 

I stopped being the 'yes guy' who goes with what the developer says and do because it plunges the player in a circuit of conformism. We are trying to derive a solution for 'end game' in the game play mechanics. Try to reason why the experience in Rail Jack feels flat like another palindrome in every mission. The whole experience is a pleonasm. You can't even distinguish one mission over the other due to the redundancy of actions. There is nothing of importance in these once the intrinsic game play is done. There is no extrinsic game play at all. In 2020 societies have a better understanding of what space is. Even series like The Expanse deals with the burden of space physics summing up a fair degree of immersion.  

The scientific approach works. 

"Other than that it is a pretty well made "simulator" compared to many big games out there that have done their thing for soon 30 years"

But a small game company that made Strike Vector does it better. Imagine if Arch Wings behaves like this: 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: I would be all onboard with a very realistic version of RJ, but I doubt many in the WF community shares that view, so I'll gladly accept the more arcade version we have, that fits in with the rest of the game already when it comes to ease of use. I wouldnt mind needing 30 buttons and a joystick to fly my RJ properly and have access to all different subsystems that might be needed. But if that was what I was looking for in WF I'd probably go and play an actual space sim to begin with and not WF or a Star Wars/Trek game.

 

 

Over simplified game mechanics. Even Star Citizen 42 simplifies rigid body dynamics. But when it tries to add some sense of realism and drifting this happens:

 

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