Why we cant have endgame content

[CrustySockPuppet]

Pretty sure it could be solo'd before this 27.4. It's just easier to do now that it's not the worst part of Eidolons put into Railjack.

[Felsagger]

Honestly speaking I'm starting to feel sorry for DE and War Frame. I think, I was too hard lashing out on these Canadian developers who by all means struggles too much trying to convince a harsh community that demands too much from them. I'm beginning to have a soft heart for them despite all their tricks of the trade with this game. We have lots of game where we can find what this game doesn't have. There far too many great games out there that accomplish a lot of things providing us a lot of good times for our money. I'm starting to act benign and find better passive ways critiquing this developer. Sometimes I feel that we are a bunch of entitled jars asking more for what they are capable to deliver. 

None of us comprehend how much pressure they have keeping us happy. None of us understand how many nights they grow another white hair in their head appeasing our insatiable addiction of running round like a spasmodic schizophrenic hamster. Well, some of these developers are nicer than other. I think we need more consensus and drop that false entitlement we got over the year of lambasting harsh words over their names. I'm growing old and tire too seeing how good developers get the harshest critiques while EA, Activision, Ubisoft and many other offenders are running amok without anyone lashing out heavy loaded words on their back instead of dissecting Digital Extremes in every move. 

Yes, this is a business and this game is a service. It was and will be. After what I've seen we were a "Brady Bunch" with a severe lack of touch and apathy towards people who work hard despite if they don't reach our expectations. I'm starting to have a soft heart and simply move away if I outgrew the game. Will ever be 'end game'. At this point it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is how we treat each other and how we reach our consensus on what we want so people establish a direction. The worst enemy of this game is us. If we don't change how we behave we will end up placing War Frame in a coffin. 

Instead of fall into apathy and angst due to these harsh times, we should be busy with our time finding ways on how the younger generation of players enjoys this game. We had our ride and it was amazing. Now the new generation must find a way through this dynamics and reach a consensus. If the community falls apart, this game is done for sure. Then I can safely say that War frame is dead. Of course no one wants that. The community should assume some responsibility educating other opinions on the art of game design, business, public relation and of course the labor and salary. At least we learned something useful out of this entertainment. 

Learning how to think was the best reward. So my heart feels some sympathy for what DE achieved at this point. 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

I’m quite impressed with the amount of empathy in your post there, @Felsagger. That utterly irrational concept that’s often used to define us as humans and is commonly what we’re searching for from each other in one way or another when we speak.

+1. Personally, I’d love to see more empathy across all interactions

Edited May 4, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones
Too many edits for such a small message, haha

[akrid45]

Warframe community logic: if it doesn't die in 1-3 seconds, it's a bullet sponge 

[BRZZAFK]

2020/5/3 AM5点28分 , kapn655321 说:

Are you saying the game should be arbitrarily bottlenecking builds for end game to only exist for the top 1% of Hundreds of weapons, dozens of frames, mods, methods?

Why not let your weapons be nerfed? If enemies aren't surviving long enough, then your weapons aren't working right for Warframe. You could OPT to have the experience you want, but it's, "artificial." So to make it real, they need to take enough damage out of those combinations to where you stop shooting yourself in the foot.

Kinda sick of this argument. I can go play tetris with my eyes close. It's challenging but not endgame nor fun. Stop mixing these thing together.

[kapn655321]

9 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Kinda sick of this argument. I can go play tetris with my eyes close. It's challenging but not endgame nor fun. Stop mixing these thing together.

I'm kind of sick of people like yourself not thinking this through. Set me to ignore if it bothers you to see this.

[(NSW)Greybones]

52 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Kinda sick of this argument. I can go play tetris with my eyes close. It's challenging but not endgame nor fun. Stop mixing these thing together.

If I’m understanding @kapn655321’s argument correctly, the option is there to make it a (fun) challenge, but there’s a demand that the game do it for the player, instead of the player make use of what’s available to find their own rhythm. Particularly in a game like Warframe, if the game pushed builds as hard as it can, inevitably there will be the META.

Technically, some builds/warframes/weapons are already being pushed as hard as possible, and found wanting. Not many use them, for reasons.

I also had a look at the post they quoted. The section they quoted from gave me the impression that, while the original post acknowledged that Railjack’s mechanics offered challenge, there was a problem with the recent changes making enemies easier to kill. I looked at that section though, and thought to myself “Hmm. If you’re killing too fast, can you choose to do less damage? 🤔 “. If that’s possible, then the mechanical skill is still there, it’s just the numbers that were changed. And we have control over our numbers for health and damage

Edited May 4, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Felsagger]

Maybe, we should start searching for the right questions. For me is way harder to be upset with the right person than the wrong one. It takes a leap of faith accepting that we have mishaps and miscalculations. Maybe the game is there but what needs tuning is our mind. After all, we learn something new each day. Games can't cater all our expectations. We can't get all the 'end game' we desire. At least why we don't suspend judgment for just one moment and see what was done up to this point. 

If the Everest takes air, strength and muscle for the climb, how less effort is needed searching for a new experience in this game? We can't change the world but the world may change us if we place ourselves in a certain way. At the same time we change the world to a different state that we don't intend in the first place. Is it good, is it bad? The game grew in us and now we understood it finally. 

Can any of you describe how thrilling was that moment of discovery? How naive we where of all the things that happened behind doors while we grasped what was going on? Then all of the sudden we demand a fixed meta, we demand 'end game' we demand, demand, demand, demand....

Is ever anything that we can bring in into this game without demanding anything in return? How about if we have fun, yes, having fun helping other users who doesn't understand their experience without spoiling the story. Or making them stronger so they battle out frustrations within the game....

Canada took effort, Boards of Canada took effort, Rush took a lot of effort and yes I miss Neil Pert. Seven years has passed and we are here thriving in this same boat. We got our hands full learning from each other and we got some story to tell about....

Well, at this point we as a community will do more if we put a genuine effort documenting, illustrating and helping the developer get the job done. Critiques, meh, in time we will understand that fun depends on our attitude and openness accepting other points of view. It's not about 'me, me, me'. 

If we are willing to learn, maybe we could change for the better with or without 'end game'. Let the river find the path. Eventually we will get something worthy out of it.  

Edited May 4, 2020 by Felsagger

[vegetosayajin]

We have endgame - The Sergeant on Phobos.

[BRZZAFK]

17小时前 , (NSW)Greybones 说:

If I’m understanding @kapn655321’s argument correctly, the option is there to make it a challenge, but there’s a demand that the game do it for the player, instead of the player make use of what’s available to find their own rhythm. Particularly in a game like Warframe, if the game pushed builds as hard as it can, inevitably there will be the META.

Technically, some builds/warframes/weapons are already being pushed as hard as possible, and found wanting. Not many use them, for reasons.

I also had a look at the post they quoted. The section they quoted from gave me the impression that, while the original post acknowledged that Railjack’s mechanics offered challenge, there was a problem with the recent changes making enemies easier to kill. I looked at that section though, and thought to myself “Hmm. If you’re killing too fast, can you choose to do less damage? 🤔 “. If that’s possible, then the mechanical skill is still there, it’s just the numbers that were changed. And we have control over our numbers for health and damage

Im saying "make yourself challenging gameplay" is a bad argument because it's a unrelate topic. Endgame is about progess rewarding and replayability not challenge. The enemy EHP thing so call "challenge" is just a oldest trick of progess rewarding design.You grind for good weapon and kill high level enemy. You fight low level enemy  when you're level 1 and you fight 100 level enemy when you're level 100.If you tring to fight 100 level enemy when you're level 1. that's  challenge. you want to complete a 100hr game in 30min. that's challenge. If endgame is about challenge then 99% of the player will not be able to participate which is clearly not what endgame is and not somthing dev want to see in thier game.

Why in pvp game people can play the same game mode, same map for 1000hr? It's because the replayability of the game mode and the match making system always find similer skill level player for them. Same goes with pve game. If there's always better gear for player to grind. higher enemy to fight. That will be endgame. Not just farm for gear to farm faster. Without progess reward,player will burn out easily. 

Although the endgame topic is not about difficulty so have nothing to do with META build. But i still gonna say balance issue is somthing they need to take it seriously. Even in current state of warframe which every thing is braindeadly easy and half the game mode can be complete by afk. The bar set for bad disign and weak build already been setting very low.You sitll dont want your favorite warframe or build need to do twice of effort to achieve the same or cost twice of time to grind for the same amount. 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by BRZZAFK

[(NSW)Greybones]

49 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Im saying "make yourself challenging gameplay" is a bad argument because it's a unrelate topic. Endgame is about progess rewarding and replayability not challenge. The enemy EHP thing so call "challenge" is just a oldest trick of progess rewarding design.You grind for good weapon and kill high level enemy. You fight low level enemy  when you're level 1 and you fight 100 level enemy when you're level 100.If you tring to fight 100 level enemy when you're level 1. that's  challenge. you want to complete a 100hr game in 30min. that's challenge. If endgame is about challenge then 99% of the player will not be able to participate which is clearly what endgame is and not somthing dev want to see in thier game.

Why in pvp game people can play the same game mode, same map for 1000hr? It's because the replayability of the game mode and the match making system always find similer skill level player for them. Same goes with pve game. If there's always better gear for player to grind. higher enemy to fight. That will be endgame. Not just farm for gear to farm faster. Without progess reward,player will burn out easily. 

Although the endgame topic is not about difficulty so have nothing to do with META build. But i still gonna say balance issue is somthing they need to take it seriously. Even in current state of warframe which every thing is braindeadly easy and half the game mode can be complete by afk. The bar set for bad disign and weak build already been setting very low.You sitll dont want your favorite warframe or build need to do twice of effort to achieve the same or cost twice of time to grind for the same amount. 

 

^^^ This is a lot better to read. I think it’s safe to say that neither @kapn655321 nor I picked up that this motivation was hidden in:

2 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

Kinda sick of this argument. I can go play tetris with my eyes close. It's challenging but not endgame nor fun. Stop mixing these thing together.

I find the more in-depth first post worth considering as food for thought for myself, but for now I step aside to let kapn say their piece, assuming they’re even interested in responding to what you’ve brought to the table after you fleshed it out more.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

The discussion was only on the mobility and the six degrees of freedom in space movement. We are not speaking about the tensor of inertia at all or a full implementation of a vector simulation of movement. Second, take your time reading and understanding what argument says. Ever Space 2 and Boundary doesn't use realistic space combat dynamics. Even games like Star Citizen 42 fails on many physics principles. The discussion is the maneuverability and the negotiation of the pace in space. You are mixing a discussion about lore and cannon that has nothing to do with the game play mechanics. 

Then there is even less point to the criticism. The movement in RJ is free enough for the game we actually play. Even if you look at the basics of 6 degrees of freedom we have that in RJ.

You can move forward, backward, up, down, left, right, L/R up, L/R down, L/R F, L/R B, you can roll, you can loop, L/R loop/roll. L/R loop/roll while going forward.

Everything else is nitpicking and opinions on wether or not those combinations are done fast or realistically enough.

And as you say, the railjack behaves like a brick. It is supposed to be like a brick compared to a very mobile fighter, since the ship we control isnt some fighter at all, nor is it a capital ship. The complaint about it being a brick is in the veins of those that complained about how zetki things werent at all the best due to being heat hungry etc. All based on the falvor text that zetki were the designed for the most important ships of the fleet. We arent flying the best or most important ships of the fleet, we are flying something that is probably similar to some troop transport in space that got the Dax from point A to B and could defend itself versus lesser threats. Heck, the biggest thing we currently face are crewships, which in practicallity are just Grineer knock offs of a RJ. 

Also it is canon, not cannon and no I dont mix it in, I'm just saying design decisions are made on more than just physics. I also never said SC42 didnt fail in certain aspects. I simply pointed out that different games do different things based on different decisions of design. Just because there are games out there with more realistic physics it doesnt mean every space game needs it. X-Wing/Tie Fighter, Jump to Lightspeed SWG aswell as Star Trek online have fun space combat, but not based on realism at all, they are simply action packed arcade space fighter games modes. Just as The old Republic had horrible space combat since it was all just a railshooter instead.

 

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

On 2020-05-02 at 8:26 PM, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Railjack was endgame? News to me.

This

[HoustonDragon]

48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And as you say, the railjack behaves like a brick. It is supposed to be like a brick compared to a very mobile fighter, since the ship we control isnt some fighter at all, nor is it a capital ship. The complaint about it being a brick is in the veins of those that complained about how zetki things werent at all the best due to being heat hungry etc. All based on the falvor text that zetki were the designed for the most important ships of the fleet. We arent flying the best or most important ships of the fleet, we are flying something that is probably similar to some troop transport in space that got the Dax from point A to B and could defend itself versus lesser threats. Heck, the biggest thing we currently face are crewships, which in practicallity are just Grineer knock offs of a RJ. 

Honestly, with the new speed changes, even with a basic upgrade, the ship moves a lot better, and a quick boost/dodge can give enough mobility to zip around to dogfight. Especially if you have Particle Ram, you can basically boost through ships repeatedly to blow them up.

 

Agreed on the crewships; the biggest threat is from ramsleds and their missiles. If you have decent guns, just pop their engines. It disables their movement and attacks, and you can safely ignore them (still watch for ramsleds) until you're ready to take them out. I've also noticed the game tends to keep around only 3 on screen at a time, so you can use that as well.

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then there is even less point to the criticism. The movement in RJ is free enough for the game we actually play. Even if you look at the basics of 6 degrees of freedom we have that in RJ.

You can move forward, backward, up, down, left, right, L/R up, L/R down, L/R F, L/R B, you can roll, you can loop, L/R loop/roll. L/R loop/roll while going forward.

Everything else is nitpicking and opinions on wether or not those combinations are done fast or realistically enough.

At this point I'm distancing myself from the criticism over Rail Jack. I'll take a break out of this game and play few others while some bug fixing is done over this Archwing content. Eventually DE will decide if the game pay requires more sophistication or not. Either way Rail Jack will be an integral part of the game itself. 

Quote

And as you say, the railjack behaves like a brick. It is supposed to be like a brick compared to a very mobile fighter, since the ship we control isnt some fighter at all, nor is it a capital ship. The complaint about it being a brick is in the veins of those that complained about how zetki things werent at all the best due to being heat hungry etc. All based on the falvor text that zetki were the designed for the most important ships of the fleet. We arent flying the best or most important ships of the fleet, we are flying something that is probably similar to some troop transport in space that got the Dax from point A to B and could defend itself versus lesser threats. Heck, the biggest thing we currently face are crewships, which in practicallity are just Grineer knock offs of a RJ. 

Also it is canon, not cannon and no I dont mix it in, I'm just saying design decisions are made on more than just physics. I also never said SC42 didnt fail in certain aspects. I simply pointed out that different games do different things based on different decisions of design. Just because there are games out there with more realistic physics it doesnt mean every space game needs it. X-Wing/Tie Fighter, Jump to Lightspeed SWG aswell as Star Trek online have fun space combat, but not based on realism at all, they are simply action packed arcade space fighter games modes. Just as The old Republic had horrible space combat since it was all just a railshooter instead.

 

Meh, a hiatus over this game will do me good waiting for substantial content. I'll probably hop in again on the PS5 release. The probability of seeing new Rail Jacks or new ships seems likely. Would be nice seeing the introduction of other ships when the faction of the Corpus is re introduced for this game mode. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Felsagger

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, HoustonDragon said:

Honestly, with the new speed changes, even with a basic upgrade, the ship moves a lot better, and a quick boost/dodge can give enough mobility to zip around to dogfight. Especially if you have Particle Ram, you can basically boost through ships repeatedly to blow them up.

 

Agreed on the crewships; the biggest threat is from ramsleds and their missiles. If you have decent guns, just pop their engines. It disables their movement and attacks, and you can safely ignore them (still watch for ramsleds) until you're ready to take them out. I've also noticed the game tends to keep around only 3 on screen at a time, so you can use that as well.

This so very much. ^

I wonder if Felsagger has actually played RJ to any depth and gotten the upgrades to make things feel less like a brick. I dont think there is any space "sim" game out there that has a progression system where the baseline things make it feel like a brick with a peashooter. Doesnt matter if it is space or ground sims, there is always a point where your progress brings you the QoL you are seeking. Mech Warrior lets you switch the whole mech aswell as components, space sims like Wing Commander lets you upgrade engines and get new ships, same deal is the more arcade like Star Trek online, where even your crew members iirc (or was that in another game) has impact on turning speed, speed, shields, guns and so on based on their passives and the station they are assigned to.

I think that one of the main parts Felsagger is missing when he's pointing out flaws like lack of pace (that was the term he used right?) in the 6 degrees of freedom of WF is that RJ effectively plays like the rest of the game. To go forward we press forward, we cant toggle our speed nor make use of a cruise speed limiter since RJ is built around the same movement system that the rest of the game uses, which is manual input to 99%. Most other space sims have several options, where you simply hit a button to engage cruise control, then you simply click other buttons that represent a throttle value up to max speed at 100%. Few of them has you hold a button that makes you go 100%, if anything the button you hold is your custom throttle, where foward means increase and backwards means decrease and if you have cruise control enabled the % will stay at that value the moment you let go of the button.

Such systems would be highly complicated in WF, heck, we dont even have enough quick buttons for our tactical screen abilities because the game needs to cater to console aswell.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

This

People parroted what many youtubers said since the release of Rail Jack. Some streamers wrongly classified it as "end game". I think all this discomfort comes from some Youtube rage kids and other uninformed media who wrongly misunderstood Rail Jack. 

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

This so very much. ^

I wonder if Felsagger has actually played RJ,,,,,,,

 

My Rail Jack is maxed out and my intrinsics are all 9. 

PS4 account name Felsager with just one g. 

MR28. If any of you wants to contact me on PS4, you are welcome. :3

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

At this point I'm distancing myself from the criticism over Rail Jack. I'll take a break out of this game and play few others while some bug fixing is done over this Archwing content. Eventually DE will decide if the game pay requires more sophistication or not. Either way Rail Jack will be an integral part of the game itself. 

Meh, I'm taking a break from Rail Jack and the game itself waiting for substantial content. I'll probably hop in again on the PS5 release. The probability of seeing new Rail Jacks or new ships is high. Would be nice seeing the introduction of other ships when the faction of the Corpus is re introduced for this game mode. 

I think Archwings could use an overhaul for RJ, to make them feel more like the railjack and less like atmospherical archwings. They've just never gotten the feel of archwings entirely right since they've been so disconnected and inconsistant even with their own selves due to the split and wonky behavior between space and atmosphere. I also wouldnt mind fighter crafts for us to use. Something that fills a different role than the RJ and archwings in missions, something you personally bring with you to the RJ missions. A thing we might need to use versus capital ships on the outside while the archwings is what lets us get inside the capital ships for a different approach.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

People parroted what many youtubers said since the release of Rail Jack. Some streamers wrongly classified it as "end game". I think all this discomfort comes from some Youtube rage kids and other uninformed media who wrongly misunderstood Rail Jack. 

And that is yet more proof why streamers and content creators should be avoided in 90% of the cases since their info is often faulty. I'm not sure how they see it as engame, I can understand them if they say Veil is endgame for RJ, but RJ itself has no impact on the rest of my in-game progression since it is an isolated mode with no rewards I can use elsewhere. I guess those nincompoops thought "endgame" cos we needed a crap ton of resources to build it at one point so something newer players lacked access to.

I wonder if I'll live to see the day when streamers and content creators actually surprise me with correct info and knowledge. I'll likely have a bigger chance dying and bumping into an actual god of some kind.

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

My Rail Jack is maxed out and my intrinsics are all 9. 

PS4 account name Felsager with just one g. 

MR28. If any of you wants to contact me on PS4, you are welcome. :3

Then I dont really understand how you can think it handles like a brick since I'm at the same progression as you. I even still need an engine that is more focused on speed but my RJ handles really well none the less.

[DroopingPuppy]

Anyway, the point is, what DE does is just fix the wrong stuff, but OP says it's a 'removing an endgame content' which is totally irrelevant to what DE actually did.

Simply put, OP didn't get the point.

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think Archwings could use an overhaul for RJ, to make them feel more like the railjack and less like atmospherical archwings. They've just never gotten the feel of archwings entirely right since they've been so disconnected and inconsistant even with their own selves due to the split and wonky behavior between space and atmosphere. I also wouldnt mind fighter crafts for us to use. Something that fills a different role than the RJ and archwings in missions, something you personally bring with you to the RJ missions. A thing we might need to use versus capital ships on the outside while the archwings is what lets us get inside the capital ships for a different approach.

Rail Jack is a bridge between ground work and Arch Wing. It happened, we have it, DE dedicated time on the game mode. Better having our experiences tested than just speculation of what it should be. At least it arrived and the next few revisions of the game will consider Rail Jack in greater detail. Looks like DE committed to it making the experience an integral part of the game. 

The success or failure of it how people react and accommodate Rail Jack in their daily game play. If that happens then the mode stays and will age well over time. Lunaro was a great idea. I played it a lot but it was launched when Rocket League was going places. Arch Wing  is the other set of this bridge. So this bridge will get stronger collecting all experiences in just one mission. 

So Rail Jack is not bad at all. Some of these grown up kids needs to stop venting on a video game and do more for themselves than just trying to throw dirt over people who work their daily life. 

[Felsagger]

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Then I dont really understand how you can think it handles like a brick since I'm at the same progression as you. I even still need an engine that is more focused on speed but my RJ handles really well none the less.

I can handle my cow. In the next large update, for us PS4 players, we will get twice the speed and a good parameter adjustment on speed and mobility. If the Rail mobilize better I would not argue at all. At least DE deep dived into it working the exhaustive details. Something good eventually come out. In the meant time I'll play few other games and help other clan mates get their Rail Jack done. 

[DroopingPuppy]

Anyway, is there anyone who willing to explain why OP have such an unreasonable thinking? Why fixing railjack is connected to 'removing endgame content'? Despite both of them have no actual connections.

[HoustonDragon]

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

The concept is fascinating. Full team work and almost a snippet of what Rail Jack is in just a scrolling shooter. This is an amazing idea of developers designing a game with fun in mind. It's hard tho, so be careful of not throwing the controller or breaking the keyboard. Try the game out. It's quite similar in a way. : P. 

With a full group playing and using voice chat, it definitely feels like a FTL style game. The hardest thing seems to be getting people to understand and cooperate for the shared goals.