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Why we cant have endgame content


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1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

If intrinsic game (player plays because is fun) play and extrinsic game play (player plays because he wants x item) are balanced, wish is almost impossible how do we deal with the problem of difficulty gate and the time gating.

Cheesing everything with a buffed Bramma that went through the scrutiny of a god rolled riven would be the worst outcome that such game could have. By no means this could be considered intrinsic gaming at all or the true 'end game' for it. 

Here is the tough decision. If we ditch out 'end game' for the sake of 'progression'. How do we deal with the problem of interest and novelty? Would it be addressed adding new enemy types to existing missions? Would we have a greater number of these enemies increasing the crowds in each level? How do we go from here? 

Somehow the game must penalize certain frames. It has to. There should be valleys and crests in the difficulty, otherwise the game will go back to the palindrome syndrome. 

That is why it should be a seperate mode created through a difficulty setting that is optional. You can run around with your braindead setup doing the same old content you did where one button wipes everything, then you'll have the gradually increasing difficulty that will bring a higher density of more uncommon mobs while also adding modifiers to the missions that further limits those old OP "builds" but also grants better rewards in return. It would make the 3 biggest parts of arpgs fall inline with eachother since you'd finaly have risk vs reward vs efficiency. Each player would find a spot that fits them, where they get challenged enough or not at all while getting the appropriate reward yield in return for the effort. Much like grifts in D3, though they are a single specific mode instead of a game wide difficulty picker/slider. It would more be like if grift difficulty levels were game wide in D3 instead of having trivial torment levels. So you could play in a classic way (boss runs) while getting rewarded as if you did rifts. In WF a difficulty setting could introduce some form of universal loot that you can get from any type of mission which then you trade in for a chance of items you actually want. Say you are after adaptation but would like to run some Tyl Regor. Well Tyle Regor now has a chance to drop a blank mod with the same drop rate as adapation and other mods from arbitrations. You get that blank mod and head over to a vendor, that vendor trades this blank mod for a box that holds 1 out of X mods from arbitrations that share the drop % chance with adaptation. In effect it is the same as if you'd grind for adaptation in arbitrations, but instead you're able to do content you want at that very given time.

There would still be trash present where you may benefit from a heavy AoE weapon or frame, but there would also be more units that require more accuracy similar to what you face with a Nox. It would just be that alot of the normal mobs would also have those mechanics added to them. An ideal solution would result in all mobs having weakpoints, but all weapons would also benefit from it. A well placed Ogris round or a Bramma arrow that hits a weakspot on one mob would deal full damage to all mobs within the AoE range aswell as if they'd hit the weakspot on each one of them. This same thing could transition to weapons with punch through, so if a weakspot is hit and the shot ends up in another mob, that mob will take full damage as if his weakspot was hit too. It would likely take some work getting something like that properly coded, but it would start rewarding people for more skillfull gameplay.

Endgame would not be ditched, the selectable difficulty would be the universal endgame mode that could apply to any type of content. It would be much like people that tell others to limit themselves to experience lower planets again, but the difficulty option would instead also let us advance further, experience tougher mobs on older maps and increase density and mission objectives to fit a higher difficulty. Endgame should never be a static thing, endgame should always be tied to further progression in these types of games.

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2 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

The big plan for rj is the squad link. From there, possibilities might be endless. But DE can not focus too much on rj content as they do for regular warframe content because rj is not warframe but just a part of it. So I don't expect rj to have regular new content. If we can have what was shown at tennocon, it will already be a big achievement for DE.

I personally don't think that rj must be challenging to have a reason to exist. They have a lot of content they can simply make available via rj. Just one example, let us open relics in rj missions. A lot of players might chose to run rj missions to open relics just for a change. 

And when squad link is introduced, they can extand the experience. Activate squad link during relics mission will allow both squads to be able to chose a reward from the 8 relics. It could come at a cost, in order to be able to pick a reward from the other team's relics you must pay X credits or any other resource. It could give a new purpose to the enormous amount of creds or resources a lot of players have. 

And they can use most of the current content and loot tables to turn rj into an alternative to get what you are looking for. The difficulty might never be a thing but it doesn't mean that there is no other way to give rj a better spot in the game. We are all running low level missions for standing, relics, resources,... Difficulty is indeed not the only thing we want in warframe. 

You have a good idea here. 

Maybe all of us got the wrong idea of what Rail Jack was. If we want it to stick in the soup, the best way is to throw it in the plate. Rail Jack will be used if and only if is integrated to relic farming and the fundamental reward system of the RNG riven giveaway. If that happens the Rail Jack may become a natural ingredient. Should it be forced? Never. Should it be presented as an alternative for the merchant such as relic collection, relic unveiling? Of course. 

Let us chew over few examples in this brainstorming: 

1. The farmer and merchant should see Rail Jack as another alternative to the void or the classical quick daily missions. 

2. The farmer and merchant should diversify his or her capacity hoarding platinum throughout different mediums like Rail Jack useful parts like engines or reactors. 

3. An endurance mode for the 'carpenter' who wants to test his Rail Jack with the option of bailing out without the penalty of loosing. 

4. Daily Alerts for forma, weapon slots, aura forma, Rivens and maybe Ephemeras. 

5. Random super valuable items that randomly happens on the stages when the player decides to explore few of those pillar structures. 

The Rail Jack is another access gate more than a time gate or a difficulty gate. This 'access gate' should not be the only activity for the acquisition of certain items, however it most foster a culture of use for the Rail Jack. This is how you naturally integrate this system into the scheme of the game. 

Edited by Felsagger
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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is why it should be a separate mode created through a difficulty setting that is optional. You can run around with your braindead setup doing the same old content you did where one button wipes everything, then you'll have the gradually increasing difficulty that will bring a higher density of more uncommon mobs while also adding modifiers to the missions that further limits those old OP "builds" but also grants better rewards in return. It would make the 3 biggest parts of arpgs fall inline with eachother since you'd finaly have risk vs reward vs efficiency. Each player would find a spot that fits them, where they get challenged enough or not at all while getting the appropriate reward yield in return for the effort. Much like grifts in D3, though they are a single specific mode instead of a game wide difficulty picker/slider. It would more be like if grift difficulty levels were game wide in D3 instead of having trivial torment levels. So you could play in a classic way (boss runs) while getting rewarded as if you did rifts. In WF a difficulty setting could introduce some form of universal loot that you can get from any type of mission which then you trade in for a chance of items you actually want. Say you are after adaptation but would like to run some Tyl Regor. Well Tyle Regor now has a chance to drop a blank mod with the same drop rate as adapation and other mods from arbitrations. You get that blank mod and head over to a vendor, that vendor trades this blank mod for a box that holds 1 out of X mods from arbitrations that share the drop % chance with adaptation. In effect it is the same as if you'd grind for adaptation in arbitrations, but instead you're able to do content you want at that very given time.

There would still be trash present where you may benefit from a heavy AoE weapon or frame, but there would also be more units that require more accuracy similar to what you face with a Nox. It would just be that alot of the normal mobs would also have those mechanics added to them. An ideal solution would result in all mobs having weakpoints, but all weapons would also benefit from it. A well placed Ogris round or a Bramma arrow that hits a weakspot on one mob would deal full damage to all mobs within the AoE range aswell as if they'd hit the weakspot on each one of them. This same thing could transition to weapons with punch through, so if a weakspot is hit and the shot ends up in another mob, that mob will take full damage as if his weakspot was hit too. It would likely take some work getting something like that properly coded, but it would start rewarding people for more skillfull gameplay.

Endgame would not be ditched, the selectable difficulty would be the universal endgame mode that could apply to any type of content. It would be much like people that tell others to limit themselves to experience lower planets again, but the difficulty option would instead also let us advance further, experience tougher mobs on older maps and increase density and mission objectives to fit a higher difficulty. Endgame should never be a static thing, endgame should always be tied to further progression in these types of games.

 

 

These are two viable solutions. The white card for the RNG trader doesn't sound like a bad idea. That system requires another discussion. It is interesting but we will go way far into other topics. And yes, finally someone mentioned this enemy THE NOX. This is the first enemy that I see with a palette of attacks such as the ram move tackling the frame, of course the toxic foam gun and his melee that knocks down the frames. It is here that DE starts making sense on the palette of enemies. 

ChemStrikeNox.png

This guy right here should have mounted rockets and a different weapon. Further heavy troop types like him are the key element focusing priorities. If the horde doesn't feel the same then the game enjoys a dynamic 'end game' structure. If the Nox is a bit bigger where you can disable certain attacks he will be forced to switch on other methods changing his behavior. This interesting enemy has more than just one attack in his arsenal. Imagine if he has three or four or if he can pull off combos. I can bring in Doom Eternal examples but why not stick to the ones available in the game. The napalm bombard is another enemy that must enjoy a heavier weapon, a mounted cannon and other attacking patterns. 

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This guy runs and think like an individual when you take him down. However how about if he is more sophisticated, bigger, faster and capable with a weapon that uses alt fire. I think that DE has the enemies but DE is not doing anything with them other than being scaled hordes. If the enemy palette tier gets upgrade like we do with the War Frame then the game could provide very interesting matches in regular missions. Of course you can tone them down but at least these could happen more often. like a squad of two Nox'es, Napalm hevies and a true heavy gunner troop not with that dumb Gorgon. 

This naturally produces 'an end game' that continues evolving. Enemy diversity with different load outs is a solution feasible for DE. 

 

Apply the same principle to Rail Jack enemy ships with different load outs. 

Edited by Felsagger
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il y a 15 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

If that happens the Rail Jack may become a natural ingredient. Should it be forced? Never. Should it be presented as an alternative for the merchant such as relic collection, relic unveiling? Of course.

The Rail Jack is another access gate more than a time gate or a difficulty gate. This 'access gate' should not be the only activity for the acquisition of certain items, however it most foster a culture of use for the Rail Jack. This is how you naturally integrate this system into the scheme of the game. 

This is the idea. Exactly.

It could also bring new content to railjack naturally via the new content of the main game. New prime access? Rj will still be a thing to open those relics. Not much to do for DE once the system is in place. It could concern syndicate missions, tenno reinforcement and many other things. Your 5 pts are working too. 

They can't make RJ interesting for everyone, this is simply a matter of taste. In fact, they took a big risk when they decided to change the nature of the usual content. But RJ can definitely found its place. 

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22 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

This is the idea. Exactly.

It could also bring new content to railjack naturally via the new content of the main game. New prime access? Rj will still be a thing to open those relics. Not much to do for DE once the system is in place. It could concern syndicate missions, tenno reinforcement and many other things. Your 5 pts are working too. 

They can't make RJ interesting for everyone, this is simply a matter of taste. In fact, they took a big risk when they decided to change the nature of the usual content. But RJ can definitely found its place. 

Eureka, now we are aiming at the jackpot as it should. Ervin threw in few good bones that we can could dive deeper into them too. 

The Rail Jack may acquire new enemies that can change the heat of the battle with the syndicates. In other words the syndicate missions are tied up with the Rail Jack intrinsically and extrinsically. Through them we can play with certain enemies and get that x item that we are interested. This is linear independence of such terms. You can search for the item while you have fun or you can have fun and somehow get that Item that can serve you for further progression. 

Since the game is multi layered you are making the farmer be a multi task player instead of simply a one target seeker. This is a concept of game design that makes the player build up a load out with a multi purpose in one mission. Here is where you open that Pandora's box. The good one. 

Making Syndicates relevant is a great idea. Bingo, we have something to work with and an integration of the game assets. This is the old part of War Frame that was in the need of a second life. Rail Jack could revitalize it. If we continue with your method of thinking we can tie up the Rail Jack as a bridge to these daily activities. The farming gains depth, the farming and the grinding gains sophistication and diversity in just one mission. 

Another idea is the twin tied mission where you finish some events in PoE or Fortuna and then your Rail Jack goes down to the atmosphere where you can call it whenever you want. This creates a bridge between 'transitions' of game modes. You make the player be more in contact with the action game instead of finishing a mission and going back to the boredom box called the orbiter. This is where the Rail Jack becomes the 'tooth brush' for the daily game. This is how the RJ strikes on gold. 

That's a good found idea, Omega. 

Edited by Felsagger
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il y a 28 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

This is the old part of War Frame that was in the need of a second life. Rail Jack could revitalize it.

Now bring the sorties into the mix. Still 3 missions to get the reward but you have 2 sets of missions. The usual one and a second one for RJ. And to make it realy interesting, give the possibility to the players to make the missions they want. You don't like the second mission of the ground set of missions, jump on your RJ for it and come back to the 3th mission of the ground set of missions. Every possible combination. In this case, RJ can be an alternative too and a way to give a new life to existing content. 

il y a 38 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Since the game is multi layered you are making the farmer be a multi task player instead of simply a one target seeker. This is a concept of game design that makes the player build up a load out with a multi purpose in one mission. Here is where you open that Pandora's box. The good one. 

This is the vision I have of warframe. Rj is not different. They already have the job done. It's there in the game. The problem is the idea that DE have of RJ. They might simply follow the roadmap and never try to make anything more that what was planed. What is the amount of time or ressources they can throw at rj? In fact, what is the real purpose of rj in DE's mind? 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Tons? In this game? The Rock GIF

Yes, i log in daily and just crack skulls for stress relief. And i have a few thousand hrs in. The question is what of the many things in the game is actually fun for you.

If theres nothing then quit till more is added.  Or hardcore handicap yourself to increase game difficulty.

We have an infinite amount of data at our finger tips. Countless hobbies we can take up in life. Countless other games/shows to jump into.

I have several other games i play at times.  Still thousands of shows to watch. Thousands of songs to listen to.

I could learn to cook, master instruments, master martial arts, learn to paint, draw, target practice, master countless computrr programs, lesrn computer, code, meditate, take a nap, have snu snu. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Point being if you are bored. You have only yourself to blame.  And the time we have is finite so get to grinding.

 

Edited by (PS4)Kakurine2
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb HexOmega111x:

This is the vision I have of warframe. Rj is not different. They already have the job done. It's there in the game. The problem is the idea that DE have of RJ. They might simply follow the roadmap and never try to make anything more that what was planed. What is the amount of time or ressources they can throw at rj? In fact, what is the real purpose of rj in DE's mind? 

Probably the same like the Cetus Tower and the third Spider in the orb-Vallis. Nice to look, but never completed.

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10小时前 , Felsagger 说:

If feedback is done from a positive point of view then it throws out improvement and innovation out of the window. The worst thing that a designer could hear is 'good job'. That is utterly destructive and negative in every way. Makes the developer rest in their laurels forever without striving for other solutions or takes on the same problem. Even if the problem where solved satisfactory, that never happens of course, there should be other edges ready for sharpening. 

Good solutions get better with time. Great solutions are rare and universal solutions are just figments of our imagination. 

You know that bad feedback or suggestion can make the game even worse right? if "good job" is zero then bad suggestion is negtive. Take Ironclad for example. Most of time players just saying random things online and dont take any responsibility on it.

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On 2020-05-03 at 2:55 PM, Felsagger said:

DE make this happen, 

9mazmikigpp31.jpg

Yes, please. 

unrelated, but i took a moment to process the image and I thought  that Frost and Exca where marryng of something with Mesa officializing

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Yes, i log in daily and just crack skulls for stress relief. And i have a few thousand hrs in. The question is what of the many things in the game is actually fun for you.

If theres nothing then quit till more is added.  Or hardcore handicap yourself to increase game difficulty.

We have an infinite amount of data at our finger tips. Countless hobbies we can take up in life. Countless other games/shows to jump into.

I have several other games i play at times.  Still thousands of shows to watch. Thousands of songs to listen to.

I vould learn to cook, master instruments, master martial arts, learn to paint, draw, target practice, master countless computrr programs, lesrn computer, code, meditate, take a nap, have snu snu. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Point being if you are bored. You have only yourself to blame.  And the time ee have is finite so get to grinding.

What a load of nonsense. What does anything of this have to do with perceived lack of endgame content in Warframe. Like what are you even talking about.

"Its ok that theres a lack of endgame content in Warframe because you see you have alternatives such as not play Warframe or learn martial arts IRL".

Like.... what ??

 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Yes, i log in daily and just crack skulls for stress relief. And i have a few thousand hrs in. The question is what of the many things in the game is actually fun for you.

If theres nothing then quit till more is added.  Or hardcore handicap yourself to increase game difficulty.

We have an infinite amount of data at our finger tips. Countless hobbies we can take up in life. Countless other games/shows to jump into.

I have several other games i play at times.  Still thousands of shows to watch. Thousands of songs to listen to.

I vould learn to cook, master instruments, master martial arts, learn to paint, draw, target practice, master countless computrr programs, lesrn computer, code, meditate, take a nap, have snu snu. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Point being if you are bored. You have only yourself to blame.  And the time ee have is finite so get to grinding.

 

What a load of nonsense. What does anything of this have to do with perceived lack of endgame content in Warframe. Like what are you even talking about.

"Its ok that theres a lack of endgame content in Warframe because you see you have alternatives such as not play Warframe or learn martial arts IRL".

Like.... what ??

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Warframe is a lot like pokemon. It's only hard in the beginning when your knowledge is lacking and tools limited,  but after grinding for the best mods and when you have a diverse set of Warframes it devolves into a gear check. Unlike pokemon, damage resistances stop mattering when you realize that armor is the only defense that matters. 

Armor class modifiers double dip and bleed ignores armor scaling. 

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15 minutes ago, fatkidscantframe said:

What a load of nonsense. What does anything of this have to do with perceived lack of endgame content in Warframe. Like what are you even talking about.

"Its ok that theres a lack of endgame content in Warframe because you see you have alternatives such as not play Warframe or learn martial arts IRL".

Like.... what ??

Did you double post on accident?

Your end game and mine are not the same.  And you clearly missed my point.

You can handicap yourself if difficulty is your end game. And the game has multiple modes to spend your time in.

Railjack is not complete sadly. But we already know it'll be updated in parts.

If you didn't enjoy something about the game you wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Edited by (PS4)Kakurine2
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16 hours ago, Felsagger said:

These are two viable solutions. The white card for the RNG trader doesn't sound like a bad idea. That system requires another discussion. It is interesting but we will go way far into other topics. And yes, finally someone mentioned this enemy THE NOX. This is the first enemy that I see with a palette of attacks such as the ram move tackling the frame, of course the toxic foam gun and his melee that knocks down the frames. It is here that DE starts making sense on the palette of enemies. 

This guy right here should have mounted rockets and a different weapon. Further heavy troop types like him are the key element focusing priorities. If the horde doesn't feel the same then the game enjoys a dynamic 'end game' structure. If the Nox is a bit bigger where you can disable certain attacks he will be forced to switch on other methods changing his behavior. This interesting enemy has more than just one attack in his arsenal. Imagine if he has three or four or if he can pull off combos. I can bring in Doom Eternal examples but why not stick to the ones available in the game. The napalm bombard is another enemy that must enjoy a heavier weapon, a mounted cannon and other attacking patterns. 

This guy runs and think like an individual when you take him down. However how about if he is more sophisticated, bigger, faster and capable with a weapon that uses alt fire. I think that DE has the enemies but DE is not doing anything with them other than being scaled hordes. If the enemy palette tier gets upgrade like we do with the War Frame then the game could provide very interesting matches in regular missions. Of course you can tone them down but at least these could happen more often. like a squad of two Nox'es, Napalm hevies and a true heavy gunner troop not with that dumb Gorgon. 

This naturally produces 'an end game' that continues evolving. Enemy diversity with different load outs is a solution feasible for DE. 

Apply the same principle to Rail Jack enemy ships with different load outs. 

Orb Valis is also a good example of diverse mobs with a good use. All the jackals and stuff would be perfect to implement into higher difficulty missions. Jackals are already dangerous if left unchecked out there since their minigun eats through frames if you arent aware of their position. And a sneaky Hyena at the right alert level can insta kill you if he gets his special attack off, like their glacial strike thing etc. Adding further things to them would be great. The jackals could turn more and more into Razorbacks the higher in the difficulty you get, with rocket ramps and so on. They'd just need to make sure to leave the specific boss encounter mechanics out of it so they fit into normal gameplay patterns.

It is sad that DE showed us that they can release interesting and challenging mobs like those in OV and then just for some reason skipped building on it. I think expanding on their NPC arsenal is one of the things they should really dedicate time on. That could easily spice up and reinvent older maps, modes and tiles. I hope the new rift thing that comes with the corpus ship revamp will have some interesting enemies.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

You can handicap yourself if difficulty is your end game. And the game has multiple modes to spend your time in.

What if my endgame is "content that has you actually working and relying together with other people"? Can we have some actual co-op content this (ostensibly) co-op game?

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Guys, remember that what OP said is NOT actually argue about 'endgame' content at all. We don't need to talk about endgame stuff in here, because what OP did was just pretend railjack fix is as if an attack against endgame content, which is just deceiving the others.

It is nothing but distorting the truth, just as a yellow journalism. You are free to want an endgame content, but yon shouldn't hear what OP says.

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20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Orb Valis is also a good example of diverse mobs with a good use. All the jackals and stuff would be perfect to implement into higher difficulty missions. Jackals are already dangerous if left unchecked out there since their minigun eats through frames if you arent aware of their position. And a sneaky Hyena at the right alert level can insta kill you if he gets his special attack off, like their glacial strike thing etc. Adding further things to them would be great. The jackals could turn more and more into Razorbacks the higher in the difficulty you get, with rocket ramps and so on. They'd just need to make sure to leave the specific boss encounter mechanics out of it so they fit into normal gameplay patterns.

It is sad that DE showed us that they can release interesting and challenging mobs like those in OV and then just for some reason skipped building on it. I think expanding on their NPC arsenal is one of the things they should really dedicate time on. That could easily spice up and reinvent older maps, modes and tiles. I hope the new rift thing that comes with the corpus ship revamp will have some interesting enemies.

I'd say it's only half-way.

Yes, the likes of the mini-bosses are an excellent addition, and I'd love to see something similar. The Lynx is probably a good pick - it's complex enough to break up the fight, but no so complex to be too disruptive to the flow. Quite frankly, it's not exactly doing much as the boss of the Corpus version of Void Sabotage (and that one Grineer spy vault).

 

However, the regular troops? Not so much. Most of them are kind of... well, infested. A significant chunk of them are melee to some degree (either directly or having a melee dash attack of sorts) which means that they're not really taking advantage of the open space or differences in terrain. Most of them are spending the majority of their time just trying to get to you, even the Hyenas. Compared with the Plains of Eidolons troops, whilst they do have a couple such enemies (Flameblades, Baliffs and the Ghouls), they have lots more variation in strategies. Hellions fly up in the air to give air strikes, Mortar Bombards pummel you at range with their, well, mortars, and the Ballista are actually being snipers in towers... sometimes. And there's also the Dargyns and Ogmas which I'm really kind of sad Ogmas don't spawn normally anymore, since actual air support does change up the fight Sure, the AI still causes them to walk towards you in an easily-killed pillar, and nuke abilities make it as useless as usual, but the regular PoE troops are much better than the regular OV ones in my opinion.

Best-case scenario for me would (assuming that we stop having the ability to ignore them) would be PoE styled regular enemies with OV style special troops.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Best-case scenario for me would (assuming that we stop having the ability to ignore them) would be PoE styled regular enemies with OV style special troops.

Pretty much that yeah. The OV hyenas as you mention can use an upgrade, as you say they spend most of their time chasing you. No idea why they dont have teleport attack combos where they tele to you and then use one of their big attacks behind your back or something. I'd also like to see more beefy or speedy ghouls. Suicide ghouls with the speed of that specific dog days dude (or faster). 

Infested are also in bad need of new units. Time to get them some units with rapid fire ranged weapons, maybe some faster and more lethal melee units. DE could easily take inspiration from the tyranids in 40k.

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Pretty much that yeah. The OV hyenas as you mention can use an upgrade, as you say they spend most of their time chasing you. No idea why they dont have teleport attack combos where they tele to you and then use one of their big attacks behind your back or something. I'd also like to see more beefy or speedy ghouls. Suicide ghouls with the speed of that specific dog days dude (or faster). 

A teleport straight into an attack would be pretty cheap, that's why. We can't see behind us as well as in front of us. That's why the flameblades have the distinct purple smoke and take a second.

Yes, the argument exists of 'just don't stop moving', but we probably should be encouraging movement that's intelligent, not jumping around like a rabbit controlled by a headless chicken.

Conveyance is as important as anything else - enemies aren't designed to kill us, they're designed to entertain us by presenting interesting challenges (and then kill us if we don't adapt to that challenge). Now, if the Hyenas had some kind of 'pack' AI where they knew where the other enemies were going and circled round for flanking purposes, that'd be more interesting.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Infested are also in bad need of new units. Time to get them some units with rapid fire ranged weapons, maybe some faster and more lethal melee units. DE could easily take inspiration from the tyranids in 40k.

Melee's a big part of their gimmick as the 'zombie horde', so I'd hold back on ranged units overall. I'd probably give them more movement abilities so it's easier for them to get into melee range. Let the lighter units wall crawl. This A: lets more of them into a single corridor since there's now wall space as well as floor space, B: makes it harder to just jump up on top of something and snipe the melee units from out of range and   C: adds to the whole 'swarm' thing if they're flooding in over every surface they can.

Maybe also expand their spawning behaviour so they can appear from pods anywhere that infested biomass appears in tilesets - be it the big clumps or just the smaller meat-moss. Something similar to a lite version of the 'brood swarm' disruption effect. The pods give this 'flanking spawn' a wind up to limit their ability to just gank people from behind but it prevents people from just complacently focused on what's directly ahead of them or the obvious door spawn areas that other units come in from. It requires attentiveness at all times and from all angles.

An overall speed buff would also not go amiss, or maybe less wind-up on their various lunge attacks.

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On 2020-05-02 at 9:26 PM, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Because casuals will complain they're locked out of content because they're paying customers. 

If people would try to be better players we could have endgame content.

but what is endgame content in warframe where  high end players either cheese to the max or just flat out  nukes everything from orbit?

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58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Orb Valis is also a good example of diverse mobs with a good use. All the jackals and stuff would be perfect to implement into higher difficulty missions. Jackals are already dangerous if left unchecked out there since their minigun eats through frames if you arent aware of their position. And a sneaky Hyena at the right alert level can insta kill you if he gets his special attack off, like their glacial strike thing etc. Adding further things to them would be great. The jackals could turn more and more into Razorbacks the higher in the difficulty you get, with rocket ramps and so on. They'd just need to make sure to leave the specific boss encounter mechanics out of it so they fit into normal gameplay patterns.

It is sad that DE showed us that they can release interesting and challenging mobs like those in OV and then just for some reason skipped building on it. I think expanding on their NPC arsenal is one of the things they should really dedicate time on. That could easily spice up and reinvent older maps, modes and tiles. I hope the new rift thing that comes with the corpus ship revamp will have some interesting enemies.

What you described here is not interesting  its just literally "overwhelm the player whit a bunch of high priority mob that cant be instagibed and have higher stats than the same level counterpart  anywhere else".

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