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De, We Need Better Communication.


Xylia
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Didn't one of you (Sheldon?) say that Communication is that thing we need to do more of?

 

In 10.3, you broke datamining.

 

You don't want us Datamining because apparently, you don't want people trying to hack into the game. This is very understandable, but please consider WHY we datamine in the first place:

 

The game does not tell you anything at all, whatsoever, about where to go to get what, period.

 

Whether it is Mods, Warframe BPs, or Void Drops, the game tells you NOTHING.

 

Moreover, the game has atrocious amounts of RNG involved in everything, that it can take days, weeks, for the players to assemble a list of what can drop where based upon personal experiences (some of which can be shady, there are sometimes trolls posting false information, etc).

 

This is an incredibly clumsy way to handle important information that we Warframe players need to know.

 

With the Derelict Vaults, you have given us two ways to use our Void Keys -- Doing Void Missions, OR, running Vaults with Dragon Keys.

 

With no table that tells me what drops from where, how the heck am I supposed to know what Void Keys to keep and what to use in making Dragon Keys? I don't feel like farming Kiliken until my eyeballs fall out from tears of boredom, to be honest, nor am I going to blow thousands of platinum in Void Key packs. That's just ridiculous, and I plain refuse to do it.

 

If you are going to stop us from datamining, then please give us the information we need -- tell us where we can get this stuff so we're not derping around in the wrong missions trying to get stuff.

 

Try to remember we are datamining, or at least we were datamining, BECAUSE WE WERE FORCED TO, because of A LACK OF COMMUNICATION.

 

Now.......didn't you guys apologize profusely during that Arid Fear event, about Communication not being good enough?

 

Please make good on this, and communicate to the players, where we can get stuff if you will no longer allow us to datamine. Nobody likes wasting time fruitlessly. My time is very valuable to me, as it is to everybody. I don't like running random missions looking for something that has a 5-10% drop rate. I need to know where to go before I will feel like using time to go try for it.

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Ive lost faith in DE after 10.3

 

While we needed a Bestiary they added Vaults...

 

Then when I questioned the Vault Screenshot CHallenge considering a lot of people are having severe crashes inside the OD, including me, they just erased my message...

 

And Ive been asking since livestream 12 about droptables... my question got asked on 14, and we are heading to 16 with no real mesure towards this...

 

Just give up, its not worth it, many other games can get money from me now on. :)

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So because of the fact that they encrypt their files in 10.3 and result in the prevention of data-mining, you draw the conclusion that DE isn't communicating well with us?

Wow.

 

If they were communicating well with us, they would have provided some sort of mod drop table, void drops, etc, knowing that players need this information otherwise they feel lost and confused, having absolutely no idea where to go for what.

 

That is a part of communication, and has been lacking since Warframe's creation. Breaking the Datamining (which was a kludge created by the players to fill the gap) made the problem much worse.

 

I'm not saying that they are directly hindering communication, however, this recent breaking of datamining sure isn't helping things, either.

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If they were communicating well with us, they would have provided some sort of mod drop table, void drops, etc, knowing that players need this information otherwise they feel lost and confused, having absolutely no idea where to go for what.

They're already working on an in-game library. It's just that it isn't urgent due to other plans (especially Armor 2.0).

 

That is a part of communication, and has been lacking since Warframe's creation. Breaking the Datamining (which was a kludge created by the players to fill the gap) made the problem much worse.

Again, just because they 'broke' data-mining doesn't justify the communication break-down. They are still making conscious efforts to keep us updated of anything relating to the game.

 

I'm not saying that they are directly hindering communication, however, this recent breaking of datamining sure isn't helping things, either.

I personally think it's to prevent such acts since they said the library is currently under development.

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They're already working on an in-game library. It's just that it isn't urgent due to other plans (especially Armor 2.0).

 

Again, just because they 'broke' data-mining doesn't justify the communication break-down. They are still making conscious efforts to keep us updated of anything relating to the game.

 

I personally think it's to prevent such acts since they said the library is currently under development.

 

Okay, so developing an in-game library takes time.

 

Sure.

 

So tell me why they can't dump a google doc on the forum and say "Here's the info until we get the in-game library working"?

 

We players need this information ASAP. Not weeks, month+ later when the in-game library is finally completed. We've had to make-do with a google doc before, I doubt anybody would complain if DE themselves released the data in a similar format. It would sure as heck be better than running blind with absolutely no idea where to go for what.

Edited by Xylia
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They're already working on an in-game library. It's just that it isn't urgent due to other plans (especially Armor 2.0).

 

Again, just because they 'broke' data-mining doesn't justify the communication break-down. They are still making conscious efforts to keep us updated of anything relating to the game.

 

I personally think it's to prevent such acts since they said the library is currently under development.

 

Sure, adding the Vaults is more important, surely.

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Soon.

 

Seriously tho, they said they wanted to do this. It's coming. Just because the dataminer can't datamine anymore doesn't mean they aren't communicating. Steve was on Reddit for how long that night talking to people? So they wanted to encrypt their code, can you blame them? In addition to hackers, there's also the fact that they're protecting their property. They have every right to do so.

 

 

Okay, so developing an in-game library takes time.

 

Sure.

 

So tell me why they can't dump a google doc on the forum and say "Here's the info until we get the in-game library working"?

 

So a futuristic game based on space ninjas is going to have a temporary drop table in a GDoc? I don't think so. DE is a professional company. They're going to make it nice and pretty so you can't whine and complain about it. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if it was something they couldn't just drag and drop. You saw the datamined tables, things aren't named properly in the code. Not to mention the fact that the dataminer had to manually set it up like that. There might not even be a drop table at all, just a bunch of code that tells the client what to drop. Can you read C#? 

 

 

Sure, adding the Vaults is more important, surely.

 

Players are begging for content, DE delivered. You can't please the masses. 

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So tell me why they can't dump a google doc on the forum and say "Here's the info until we get the in-game library working"?

It gets in the way of development. While it is nice for them to at least inform us of the development, I don't think it's beneficial to release the information early. Besides, spoiling upcoming content isn't going to help DE in any way either, since it won't create as much hype as if it was kept private. People will also grow an unhealthy mentality that they must be informed of basically anything that will be implemented into the game, which can lead to trouble when the final product isn't the same as the proto-type.

 

We players need this information ASAP. Not weeks, month+ later when the in-game library is finally completed. We've had to make-do with a google doc before, I doubt anybody would complain if DE themselves released the data in a similar format. It would sure as heck be better than running blind with absolutely no idea where to go for what.

 

 

Developers still need time to do it, as much as you speak for the majority of the 'players' who want the information so badly.

 

Sure, adding the Vaults is more important, surely.

 

The library should be released along with other major content update(s). Seeing as how they'll do it once per month, I'd rather be patient and enjoy whatever stuff we have first rather than rushing them for it (and putting tremendous stress and pressure).

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Soon.

 

Seriously tho, they said they wanted to do this. It's coming. Just because the dataminer can't datamine anymore doesn't mean they aren't communicating. Steve was on Reddit for how long that night talking to people? So they wanted to encrypt their code, can you blame them? In addition to hackers, there's also the fact that they're protecting their property. They have every right to do so.

 

 

 

So a futuristic game based on space ninjas is going to have a temporary drop table in a GDoc? I don't think so. DE is a professional company. They're going to make it nice and pretty so you can't whine and complain about it. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if it was something they couldn't just drag and drop. You saw the datamined tables, things aren't named properly in the code. Not to mention the fact that the dataminer had to manually set it up like that. There might not even be a drop table at all, just a bunch of code that tells the client what to drop. Can you read C#? 

 

 

 

Players are begging for content, DE delivered. You can't please the masses. 

 

Tell me how the Vaults are actual "content". All they did was add 16 new mods to a #*($%%@ up laggy tileset, that crashes for a lot of people.

 

Im one that would prefer performance issues + buges got worked on and new content actually had a bit more work on there side before releasing. Plus they could have used the effort they used on the S#&$ty Vaults on a Bestiary, not to be released now as it is something big, but actually use the resources used on the Vaults on a Bestiary.

 

Its ridiculous how WF exists for such a long time and still basic content is hidden from us behind grindwalls that we arent sure where to go to. If it wasnt for the wiki, how the F*** would I know where to farm any mod or prime weapon piece? Or even where to farm keys?

 

Nothing, absolutely nothing is explained, after so much time.

 

Sorry, DE aint pleasing the masses, they are just tryin to chew more than they can and sinkin more and more with there own mistakes. And every week they acknowledge the mistakes and commit them over, and over again.

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Adding vaults aka new content and preventing datamining are mutually exclusive.

One is good, the other is bad, they relate in absolutely no way besides the fact they were introduced at the same time, you cannot compare them.

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Realize I literally just posted about this. But. Shut up, you don't understand the situation at all.

I do, actually. 

I understand that someone had to data-mine the information themselves to prove DE wrong with regards to the Forma drop.

DE made an apology announcement and compensated everyone with 50 platniums.

However, just because it happened once doesn't necessarily imply they're gonna repeat the same mistake again. I'm confused as to how you (and the others) get the idea that they'll surely do it again.

Once again, this is the General Discussion section. As much as you want to voice your displeasure at DE, I don't think telling me to shut up is appropriate. Not butt-hurt or anything, but I can understand why DE updated the forum rules to cope with the increasing aggression. 

 

Tell me how the Vaults are actual "content". All they did was add 16 new mods to a #*($%%@ up laggy tileset, that crashes for a lot of people.

I remember them adding something in response to that in one of the recent hot-fixes. Maybe you should try that to see whether the situation improves on your end?

Edited by -Clazziqual
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It's called filler content, something to keep people occupied while they work on bigger issues, or larger content drops.

 

I'm frankly getting tired of seeing the same topics pop up over and over again, with the same arguments. How many times do we all have to go over it again, before someone from the DE team says they will ( or have,since they already have stated such) take it to the rest of the team for discussion, etc.

 

The wiki right now is a pretty good placeholder for any information, whether or not its reliable. Most of the time, its reliable enough to where I've gotten what I needed from where it drops. And I've put a fair bit of time and money into this game. 

 

To be frank, I just see a lot of impatience, a lot of unfair impatience, considering how good this team has been to its community in most aspects, save for a few accounts. And for some reason, those problems didn't upset me even half as much as most of the community took them.

 

DE has a lot on their plate. Probably more than a team of their size can handle. And they have a lot of different tastes to take into account.

 

Sure there's a lot of half implemented content. But there is a lot of content, and it isn't half bad. The game is still in development, and with time, good community feedback that can make current content better will do just that.

 

More people just need to be patient. DE usually reacts and delivers in most cases. Not always, but as its been said before. You can't please everyone.

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I do, actually. 

I understand that someone had to data-mine the information themselves to prove DE wrong with regards to the Forma drop.

DE made an apology announcement and compensated everyone with 50 platniums.

However, just because it happened once doesn't necessarily imply they're gonna repeat the same mistake again. I'm confused as to how you (and the others) get the idea that they'll surely do it again.

Once again, this is the General Discussion section. As much as you want to voice your displeasure at DE, I don't think telling me to shut up is appropriate. Not butt-hurt or anything, but I can understand why DE updated the forum rules to cope with the increasing aggression. 

 

I remember them adding something in response to that in one of the recent hot-fixes. Maybe you should try that to see whether the situation improves on your end?

 

They had to add in Vaults and get even more people pissed for them to start workin on it. Since day 1 theres people complaining about the crazy lag and crashes... then they have to add a new RNG grind to see how its screwed up.

 

And again, my problem inst the vaults, but the fact that they have limited funds, as they have stated in livestreams, yet they use part of there funds on stuff that isnt important.

 

Stuff like the vaults are nice ideas to be implemented when a game is solid and performing well, that isnt the case. We have a screwed up damage system. A screwed up drop table. A screwed up credit income tat doesnt cover up for everything we have to pay for that they add now, especially ranking up the rare new mods. They have a screwed up notion of how to help out new players understand basic mechanics like the mods. They have a screwed up UI full of bugs.

 

Im gona stop listing stuff they should be working on that help out the players, and that are new content, instead of adding content that isnt necessarym only nice to some point, but ends up buried because of the millions of things they leave behind, the lose edges.

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I do, actually. 

I understand that someone had to data-mine the information themselves to prove DE wrong with regards to the Forma drop.

DE made an apology announcement and compensated everyone with 50 platniums.

However, just because it happened once doesn't necessarily imply they're gonna repeat the same mistake again. I'm confused as to how you (and the others) get the idea that they'll surely do it again.

Once again, this is the General Discussion section. As much as you want to voice your displeasure at DE, I don't think telling me to shut up is appropriate. Not butt-hurt or anything, but I can understand why DE updated the forum rules to cope with the increasing aggression. 

 

I remember them adding something in response to that in one of the recent hot-fixes. Maybe you should try that to see whether the situation improves on your end?

 

 

Ok. You clearly don't remember it all. If you did, you would remember that creepy little 'special sale' guy on the market. He existed for 3 days, if that. His last sale was for a void key pack, for 55 platt, after they gave us all 50 platt........ After we burned a combined thousands of keys. No one wanted platt. We wanted keys. So they give us enough platt, and some fake &#! sale, try and grift us into paying for $5 of platt. And it wasn't once that dataminers proved DE lied. It was multiple times. And if you think about it, the only real complaints we ever have about the game, there is generally a borked drop rate. Every single thing DE does seems to be designed to beat and whip players into mindlessly farming for more and more mods (which are so often introduced broken and often cant be fit due to meta requirements any way), or more gear to replace the gear we already own and love (and just want it rebalanced). They don't listen to us. These vaults were just another poorly planed, poorly executed addition of content no one wanted. We want lore, and direction. It's just RNG, with in RNG, with in a pizza, with in a platypus. if you can tell me a SINGLE aspect of this game not effected by RNG, you win this argument. But be legit about it. Saying 'M Prime isn't RNG' doesn't count.

 

What core aspect, what game mode, what reward, what anything... isn't RNG, sir?

 

You really think it's going to be long before DE screws us over with the now encrypted drop rates? Ok. I won't argue. I just don't forget my grievance as easily as you I guess.

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Also, on the note of lack of communication.

 

Would you rather DE spent all day of every week updating you on every move they make, compiling rediculously large lists of things they've done over the course of each day? Yeah, thats totally something everyone here does right? If that were the case, nothing would get done, and we'd have less than what we have currently. 

 

I have yet to see a good description as to what anyone expects as good communication from DE. 

 

So this whole encryption fiasco tying into not communicating with the community makes zero sense. That's not DE communicating with anyone, thats data miners ripping through the guts of the game, and showing everyone what values are where.

 

No one was forced to data mine the game. People were curious, and wanted to know what drops where off what, so someone with the ability do so found out and passed it along.

 

With time, most of what we know could have been found out through game play statistics if anyone was willing to go so far as to collect and compile them.

 

I don't think there's a day where I don't come to the forums and face palm at something someone from this community has said.

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Ok. You clearly don't remember it all. If you did, you would remember that creepy little 'special sale' guy on the market. He existed for 3 days, if that. His last sale was for a void key pack, for 55 platt, after they gave us all 50 platt........ 

I suppose it's more of an unfortunate issue than anything. 50 plat is a value which we get when we first start out, after all.

I understand where you're coming from with regards to this.

 

 

 And it wasn't once that dataminers proved DE lied. 

 

I think I heard about another incident that involved data-mining, but I wasn't too sure about it. I'll give you that.

Anyway, I think the recent apology as a follow-up may (or may not) signify that DE will verify the integrity of the existing files before (and after) releasing new content. 

 

 

 And if you think about it, the only real complaints we ever have about the game, there is generally a borked drop rate.

 

Was the said complaint made after Drop 2.0 came out? If that's the case then I suppose it's either them accomplishing the objective (of having players to play different missions) or it's just RNG. I wouldn't want to question the unpredictability of RNG.

 

 

if you can tell me a SINGLE aspect of this game not effected by RNG, you win this argument. But be legit about it. Saying 'M Prime isn't RNG' doesn't count.

 

What core aspect, what game mode, what reward, what anything... isn't RNG, sir?

 

 

I will definitely lose this 'argument', but if there's seriously one thing about discouraging RNG, I suppose it would be the guaranteed blue-print drop from bosses when you complete the mission (Just like killing the J-2000 Golem or the Lephantis and completing the mission for a guaranteed Nekros parts BP drop). I do remember they previously exist in the form of physical orb drop and that it does have its own RNG system of whether it'll drop or not. 

 

 

You really think it's going to be long before DE screws us over with the now encrypted drop rates? Ok. I won't argue. I just don't forget my grievance as easily as you I guess.

 

I can comprehend your frustration. Just saying. :)

Edited by -Clazziqual
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SO basically you want to be spoon-fed information that should be classified? 

 

You should quit this game if you think like that. It's their company. Let them run it how they want.

 

This is a game. It's meant to be played for fun. Is it nice to know where to get certain things, I guess, sure. But isn't it also nice to find stuff out for yourself without needing some sort of GUIDE? What's the fun in a game where you're basically having your hand held the whole way never to actually play it yourself? You're pitiful. The whole community is! DE should be ashamed for spoiling you brats. I like not knowing. I like they're trying to hide info that should be hidden anyways. We're players. We don't make the game. Just a heads up, brat.

 

 DE doesn't owe you anything. Remember that.

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Meh.

 

I never wanted this to turn into "Let's bash the developers" thread (especially since that is against the new forum rules).

 

All I want, is for them to release a simple spreadsheet of what drops where. I'm quite sure the developers know, because they programmed it that way in the first place, and I'm sure they have spreadsheets around the office of this stuff. Exporting an Excel spreadsheet to HTML or what-not is not that hard to do.

 

People in this thread make it sound like rocket science, but it really really isn't. Do you seriously think the game's code is the ONLY place the drop tables are stored? I highly doubt it. Any developer worth their salt has plans stored in text files, word files, excel files, etc so that they can get information at-a-glance without having to open the game's code.

 

DE might have done some questionable things, but I still have full faith in them that they are a good developer, and that they use common development practices such as having spreadsheets, databases, etc that exist outside the game.

 

I can understand encrypting the files to prevent datamining, but like I said.... we need some of this info, otherwise we're just plain wasting our time fruitlessly. Trying to find any single part (when some of them, again, have 5-10% drop chance) is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

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Meh.

 

I never wanted this to turn into "Let's bash the developers" thread (especially since that is against the new forum rules).

 

All I want, is for them to release a simple spreadsheet of what drops where. I'm quite sure the developers know, because they programmed it that way in the first place, and I'm sure they have spreadsheets around the office of this stuff. Exporting an Excel spreadsheet to HTML or what-not is not that hard to do.

 

People in this thread make it sound like rocket science, but it really really isn't. Do you seriously think the game's code is the ONLY place the drop tables are stored? I highly doubt it. Any developer worth their salt has plans stored in text files, word files, excel files, etc so that they can get information at-a-glance without having to open the game's code.

 

DE might have done some questionable things, but I still have full faith in them that they are a good developer, and that they use common development practices such as having spreadsheets, databases, etc that exist outside the game.

 

I can understand encrypting the files to prevent datamining, but like I said.... we need some of this info, otherwise we're just plain wasting our time fruitlessly. Trying to find any single part (when some of them, again, have 5-10% drop chance) is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

That's the thing. We're players. We aren't entitled to that information. The people who make this game are.

 

Do you want someone going through your drawers if you don't know them?

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Also, on the note of lack of communication.

 

Would you rather DE spent all day of every week updating you on every move they make, compiling rediculously large lists of things they've done over the course of each day? Yeah, thats totally something everyone here does right? If that were the case, nothing would get done, and we'd have less than what we have currently. 

 

You mean change logs? Because we actually get those now...

 

It's just straight up normal for every change that happens in the software to be documented so that people know what to expect from that game. They do that. There is a section on these forums for exactly that kind of communication.

Everything they fix, everything they change, every art asset that is added. Every piece of work done by every person in the building that makes it into a live build is cataloged and released to us, the player. They already do that.

 

 As for the other stuff... 

 

Good communication from them would be releasing to us the information that we want/need to know. They would not just announce stuff, they would tell us why, or better they would ask us for feedback on what we consider the changes that need to be made. That's the kind of communication that we want.

 

Failing that we just want to know where stuff drops and how often. That is the absolute minimum of communication that we need.

 

This is a game that's exclusively about random number generators to get stuff. We need to know. We just do. Imagine that you are repeatedly cutting a deck of cards, trying to get the ace of spades. But you don't even know if the ace of spades is in that deck of cards. How long would you keep playing the game until you gave up? How about if I lay out a hundred decks in front of you, and there's an ace of spades in three of them. How many times would you keep trying? You wouldn't. You'd say screw this game, it's not fun because I never get to win.

 

That is why we need to have good, complete information about drop tables. Repetition is ok. That is what makes getting the one thing we want feel good. But when you don't even know if you are endlessly repeating the right thing? Yeah that stops being fun.

 

There's an oft quoted saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Maybe that isn't true, but it does give some perspective of exactly how it feels to be forced to repeat the same missions again and again and again with no understanding of if you can even get what you want from that missions.

 

To put it in it's simplest terms, not knowing the drop tables is the difference between trying to roll a six on one dice, and two sixes on two dice.

 

Warframe is a game. It is supposed to be fun. Some repetition is fine. Not even knowing if you are repeating the right thing is stupid and frustrating and makes you not want to play anymore.

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SO basically you want to be spoon-fed information that should be classified? 

 

You should quit this game if you think like that. It's their company. Let them run it how they want.

 

This is a game. It's meant to be played for fun. Is it nice to know where to get certain things, I guess, sure. But isn't it also nice to find stuff out for yourself without needing some sort of GUIDE? What's the fun in a game where you're basically having your hand held the whole way never to actually play it yourself? You're pitiful. The whole community is! DE should be ashamed for spoiling you brats. I like not knowing. I like they're trying to hide info that should be hidden anyways. We're players. We don't make the game. Just a heads up, brat.

 

 DE doesn't owe you anything. Remember that.

 

Uh....

 

Not everybody has ridiculous amounts of time that they can waste fruitlessly searching for a needle in a haystack. I work at a job IRL; I don't have 24/7 to spend on Warframe doing missions 10, 20, 30+ times before I can safely rule out that what I'm looking for does not drop there. I don't have 24/7 to kill every stinking mob 50+ times until I find what specific mob drops the mod I need.

 

Without the old spreadsheets, where would I have ever found the information that Focus ONLY drops from Captain Vor and the Stalker pre-10.3?

 

The Answer: This would have been impossible to know, and nearly impossible to ever find, because A). I have the Seer, Miter, and Twin Gremlins, and therefore have no reason to kill Captain Vor, and B). The Stalker shows up maybe 1 in every 100 missions.

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That's the thing. We're players. We aren't entitled to that information. The people who make this game are.

 

Do you want someone going through your drawers if you don't know them?

 

I don't know about you, but we are players offering feedback on a "beta" product. As such, it would be nice to know these sorts of things for, at the very least, testing purposes. How is one supposed to know how rare content is supposed to be if that information is not available?

Especially when you put in the events leading up to Sheldon popping in that one time he did to take the flak to make the Apology thread, I'd say this was a move designed to hinder the Tester's ability to test their game because it makes Digital Extremes look incapable. DE swore and declared on the Livestream that they checked the Loot Tables, and everything was fine. This isn't the first time such a ball-drop has occurred.

 

The next time this happens, if we do not have this information, I suppose we'll never see an Ember Prime Systems because there'll be a 0.67% chance of it dropping from a T3 Void mission.

 

 

But hey. That ties in perfectly with the rates of randomness in-game at the moment, right?

Edited by Azure_Kyte
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