Self-stagger? Really?

[Psychotoxin]

So, Correct me if I'm wrong, but self-staggering on blast procs wasn't a thing some time ago, right?

I decided to give a go to my Despair that's modded with blast and a high status chance, as I remember it to be a decent side-arm.

But then I made the grave mistake of shooting a grineer lancer that was right in my face...
Or shooting from the corner of a door, and clipped the said corner...
Or flung one dagger at an orokin container...
Or misclicked when my mouse slipped and hit the floor by my feet...

All of these actions made me either fly backwards, tumble to the ground, or do a very sudden and jarring block/brace animation, that stops all momentum, and interrupts all other actions.

 

[Magus_Tahir]

Self Stagger replaced Self Damage. Stagger or Death!?

[Jiminez_Burial]

Just now, Magus_Tahir said:

Self Stagger replaced Self Damage. Stagger or Death!?

Death.

[Psychotoxin]

Neither!
Why the heck does PvE need something like that?

Also - self-damage would be ok, if scaled back for the player.
And again - why the heck does a mainly PvE game needs to have that grade of penalization for powerful weapons?

P.S. Death over stagger.

I was less annoyed by dying every once in a blue moon to a freaking blast proc. not a Penta `nade.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Psychotoxin

[taiiat]

5 minutes ago, Psychotoxin said:

And again - why the heck does a mainly PvE game needs to have that grade of penalization for powerful weapons?

i'm all for making it optional via like, a Mod for 3.0x Final Multiplier Damage, but now your Weapon can Kill you.

Edited May 8, 2020 by taiiat

[Magus_Tahir]

5 minutes ago, Psychotoxin said:

Neither!
Why the heck does PvE need something like that?

Also - self-damage would be ok, if scaled back for the player.
And again - why the heck does a mainly PvE game needs to have that grade of penalization for powerful weapons?

P.S. Death over stagger.

I was less annoyed by dying every once in a blue moon to a freaking blast proc. not a Penta `nade.

You have chosen death! Here is your reward.

[Xaero]

Well, you can install Primed Sure Footed on your warframe and forget about self-stagger forever (or until DE changes it).

Edited May 8, 2020 by Xaero

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

47 minutes ago, Psychotoxin said:

And again - why the heck does a mainly PvE game needs to have that grade of penalization for powerful weapons?

Because if there wasn't, why in the world would you use a rifle, that hits only a single target, over an explosive weapon that deals probably even more damage than that rifle but to 4 enemies at once in its 5m radius? Competent explosive weapons will always outperform rifles, no matter how much you try to buff said rifles, because in a horde shooter the whole point is killing a bunch of enemies at once. That's why they need drawbacks. Most other games, mainly pve games, put heavy limitations around explosive weapons, especially on ammo availability and self damage. And in my honest opinion, self stagger that can be totally circumvented with a single mod is not nearly enough to have any semblance of choice in your load outs. 

[darkbrick]

use nezha and his warding halo. the effect is nullifid.

[Travis05]

I would bring back self damage. Only on bramma kuva, so people kill themselves

[Dark5]

44 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Well, you can install Primed Sure Footed on your warframe and forget about self-stagger forever (or until DE changes it).

Most people don’t have or will not have Primed Sure Footed anytime soon as it is not easily obtained so the non-primed variant is more practical.

[-KyloRen-]

i like death more

Edited May 8, 2020 by -KyloRen-

[zhunGamer]

If I hadn't found a way to counteract this, I would have just quit the game right there and then, because when they first brought it in for the Staticor, which did NOT previously have self-damage, I literally couldn't figure out how to move without being unable to move for 5 seconds every 2 seconds.

So now I'm running with Constitution + Handspring. I have Handspring on every single frame's exilus slot, I don't care that there are other exilus mods because otherwise the game is literally unplayable.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 hour ago, Psychotoxin said:

Neither!
Why the heck does PvE need something like that?

Also - self-damage would be ok, if scaled back for the player.
And again - why the heck does a mainly PvE game needs to have that grade of penalization for powerful weapons?

P.S. Death over stagger.

I was less annoyed by dying every once in a blue moon to a freaking blast proc. not a Penta `nade.

Because rules still exist, even in a game like this.

You're supposed to maintain some semblance of balance, even if it's a weak semblance.

Or else why even have natural talent? Just make everyone's animations super fast. Why have strength mods? Just give us all 300% and let us adjust the range and duration lol.

[Inspector]

Just run with [Primed Sure Footed]
8 drain when the Exilus Slot is has a forma for Vazarin is acceptable in most situations. To be honest if blast is "affecting" you like this then you aren't running frames with all slots maxed anyways. For me PSF is a close second for the best QoL mod in the game, best being [Charm] for very obvious reasons. 
If you don't have the days in to have or afford the Endo for it then [Sure Footed] is a decent replacement, most other circumstances will be too costly i.e. [Constitution] and/or [Handspring]. I also don't prefer them as I would rather not get staggered at all than have a shorter stagger. 
 

1 hour ago, Psychotoxin said:

Or shooting from the corner of a door, and clipped the said corner...
Or flung one dagger at an orokin container...
Or misclicked when my mouse slipped and hit the floor by my feet...

These all sound like player issues to me, not game issues. Best to look beyond your own personal circumstances when designing or criticizing a game.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Inspector

[trst]

21 minutes ago, Zhuinden said:

If I hadn't found a way to counteract this, I would have just quit the game right there and then, because when they first brought it in for the Staticor, which did NOT previously have self-damage, I literally couldn't figure out how to move without being unable to move for 5 seconds every 2 seconds.

So now I'm running with Constitution + Handspring. I have Handspring on every single frame's exilus slot, I don't care that there are other exilus mods because otherwise the game is literally unplayable.

Or just adapt to the change and don't run into charged shots or use melee when enemies are on top of you? The mods/abilities that prevent staggers aren't requirements to use any weapons.

 

Though worth noting in general for anyone that can't/doesn't run P.Sure Footed or any other frames/mods that Wyrm's Negate augment also prevents stagger procs. It's actually very reliable despite the 5s cooldown.

Edited May 8, 2020 by trst

[Rawbeard]

1 hour ago, Psychotoxin said:

Why the heck does PvE need something like that?

why the heck does PvE need something like health?

[Acersecomic]

2 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Death.

Then don't shoot enemies and die until you run out of respawns and rage quit, so we don't have to hear that twisted stupid @$$ logic of it's better to kill yourself than stagger.

OH NO, I HAVE BEEN STAGGERED, WHAT A MAJOR ANNOYANCE, OH WOE IS ME WHO HAS TO WAIT TWO SECONDS INSTEAD OF DYING AND WAITING EVEN MORE SECONDS! WHAT A TERRIBLE CURSE UPON ME! WE ALL CRIED AND CRIED HOW SELF-DAMAGE WAS DETRIMENTAL TO GAMEPLAY AND NOW WHEN WE HAVE IT WE ARE GONNA CRY WHY IT GOT REMOVED!!

[JackHargreav]

2 hours ago, Psychotoxin said:

But then I made the grave mistake of shooting a grineer lancer that was right in my face...
Or shooting from the corner of a door, and clipped the said corner...
Or flung one dagger at an orokin container...
Or misclicked when my mouse slipped and hit the floor by my feet...

All of these actions made me either fly backwards, tumble to the ground, or do a very sudden and jarring block/brace animation, that stops all momentum, and interrupts all other actions

Because self damage didn't kill the momentum at all.

Except it did and it since it straight up killed you.

(Tho I half agree that this wouldn't have been a problem if it would have been just damage, instead of insta kill.)

Anyways If you don't shoot the targets right in front of you this is not a problem.

[DroopingPuppy]

2 hours ago, Psychotoxin said:

So, Correct me if I'm wrong, but self-staggering on blast procs wasn't a thing some time ago, right?

I decided to give a go to my Despair that's modded with blast and a high status chance, as I remember it to be a decent side-arm.

But then I made the grave mistake of shooting a grineer lancer that was right in my face...
Or shooting from the corner of a door, and clipped the said corner...
Or flung one dagger at an orokin container...
Or misclicked when my mouse slipped and hit the floor by my feet...

All of these actions made me either fly backwards, tumble to the ground, or do a very sudden and jarring block/brace animation, that stops all momentum, and interrupts all other actions.

 

Well, make you knockout instantly just stops your momentum and inturrupt all actions, and it actually gets even worse.

Concealed Explosive is a sad and rare example that does not kills you outright when self damage was live, though. I know the feeling for I have Hikou Prime with Concealed Explosive setting.

 

[DroopingPuppy]

1 minute ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm glad that self damage is gone.

Do I use exclusively launchers now? No.

Nothing has changed for me, except that when I use a launcher I don't magically die, and that my teammates actually are able to do something.

I prefer 3 teammates with 10 forma+riven Bramma over 3 teammates that do nothing and leave the work to me.

THIS. It just allow us to consider launchers.

[Number5s]

1 hour ago, Travis05 said:

I would bring back self damage. Only on bramma kuva, so people kill themselves

This...im sick of seeing Saryn Primes and Brammas like 2 each every match. For someone collecting and maxing all the Bows in the game, people kinda have me tilted on the Bramma.

[Jiminez_Burial]

On 2020-05-08 at 8:25 PM, Acersecomic said:

Then don't shoot enemies and die until you run out of respawns and rage quit, so we don't have to hear that twisted stupid @$$ logic of it's better to kill yourself than stagger.

???  I'm honestly not sure how you read my comment.  I was saying that out of the possible options; stagger or self damage, I would prefer self damage and therefor death.  I'm one of those people who was always against the removal of self-damage.  Having to think about your positioning in the environment and the positioning of your target added an amount of enjoyment for me.  Yes I occasionally blew myself up (sometimes multiple times a mission if I was paying too much attention to another app) but 99% of the time I realised what I did and thought "huh, well I deserved that".  Stagger can be outright removed from consideration with a number of Warframes (one being Rhino which I ran with the Bramma a lot while Lich hunting, one of the few things I could still enjoy in Warframe prior to the self-stagger update) and ending up in a common situation where the most efficient thing to do is look for red triangles on the map and then firing your explosive at the nearest wall with zero consequences (because Iron Skin) just doesn't seem like good gameplay to me, and never did.

On 2020-05-08 at 8:25 PM, Acersecomic said:

OH NO, I HAVE BEEN STAGGERED, WHAT A MAJOR ANNOYANCE, OH WOE IS ME WHO HAS TO WAIT TWO SECONDS INSTEAD OF DYING AND WAITING EVEN MORE SECONDS! WHAT A TERRIBLE CURSE UPON ME! WE ALL CRIED AND CRIED HOW SELF-DAMAGE WAS DETRIMENTAL TO GAMEPLAY AND NOW WHEN WE HAVE IT WE ARE GONNA CRY WHY IT GOT REMOVED!!

I feel you are making the mistake of thinking the Warframe community (meaning every single person in it) only ever has one opinion about things rather than each individual having their own point of view.  I always defended self-damage even years before self-stagger was publicly considered by DE, and honestly the change is one of the reasons I haven't played Warframe in months.  I don't flip-flop my opinions, and I wasn't someone who only occasionally played the game.  In the first 4 years of the game I racked up around 4k hours across multiple accounts all while having to go to school.  I stay updated about the game (and active on these forums) because I want to come back to Warframe one day, but that will only happen if DE turn away from where the game is heading - to stop casualising everything and failing to provide proper skill based difficulty (with the exception having been PT).  My opinions on the matter have stayed the same and your complaints about what (portions) of the community are saying is potentially based on nothing but assumption.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Jiminez_Burial
Fixed minor grammatical errors.

[Acersecomic]

4 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

 

Look, it's very simple really. There are three crowds.

The Silent One that doesn't mind either or doesn't care enough to come to the forums and are just a DE statistic to balance the yay and nay crowds.
The NAY "leave it as is" crowd.
The YAY "change it" crowd.

Changes are a battle between YAY and NAY, better represented and presented crowd wins the argument and DE makes changes but only if they are supported by the Statistics of "we just play the game". If those two align, then it is for the better health of the game and players to make a relevant change.

Your side lost to apparent majority and better represented crowd wanting self-damage gone + suicide statistics of the Silent Ones.
Deal with it, there will be no rollbacks. That would show indecisiveness and weakness on part of DE and would give too much control to the players, resulting in utter chaos and a futile back and forth, resulting in more players leaving the game than they would otherwise because of a single but important change.

THE END.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Psychotoxin said:

Neither!
Why the heck does PvE need something like that?

Also - self-damage would be ok, if scaled back for the player.
And again - why the heck does a mainly PvE game needs to have that grade of penalization for powerful weapons?

P.S. Death over stagger.

I was less annoyed by dying every once in a blue moon to a freaking blast proc. not a Penta `nade.

"In most games, self-damage is gradual, and serves as a risk/reward factor to balance powerful weapons. I. Warframe, self-damage is instant, lethat, and balances f[censored by forums] all" --Quiette Shy

Self-stagger by contrast does have a purpose: now that you don't instantly kill yourself with every shot, self-stagger inflicts a fire-rate penalty, so that you can't just wade into enemy lines and shoot the ground for perfect accuracy. Well, you can still do that, but you will fire fewer shots

Lastly there is this implication you have that goes something like "this game is PvE anyway, let us break it however we want." No. They did that in Tom Clancy's The Division, and the result was an extremely toxic PvE scene where a top 1% of level 5,000 players would use every game-breaking exploit under the sun hog all the missions, spamming votekicks at anyone less abusive than themselves. The Warframe devs are allowed to draw a line at what is too powerful for the Tenno