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Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream


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vor 4 Minuten schrieb dwqrf:

The normal star chart will be even more a wasteland and meeting people on the way will become a really rare event. New players will have to think this is a solo game even though they play online. They'll have to clean the start chart once before being able to group with "high end" players...

tbh this is the big question we need to wait for. Maybe DE does something to not split the community.

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59 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Agree 100% that the power creep problem in Warframe will continue now that builds will be designed around 150+ level enemies and new content will be labeled as easy, boring, etc. because people will be running builds designed to kill enemies higher than the top enemies in the content, including the boss.

Best idea ever...absolutely. Or maybe not...

i say its a good idea in the right direction. give hard and ultra hard mode to every node and every future possible game mode,even free roam worlds like fortuna and plains of eidolon. the casuals can play in their bite sized normal mode. vets can stick around in their ultra mode mode starmap. one isn't detracting from the other. players already and always made builds around the lvl 150 mark so this is nothing new, except a change of scenery from simulacrum, which DE steve wanted. now i just wish they upped the mod drop chances and resource drops from hard and ultra hard mode. that many of the old vets would be coming back in droves, since i see everywhere on reddit, steam, twitch and youtube, saying how vets are more interested with cautious optimism. railjack doesn't need any hard mode though, i will give you that. 

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I'd rather see missions changed in more interesting ways than increasing enemy EHP numbers. Disruption was a great addition, we need more missions in a similar style.

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4 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

i say its a good idea in the right direction. give hard and ultra hard mode to every node and every future possible game mode,even free roam worlds like fortuna and plains of eidolon. the casuals can play in their bite sized normal mode. vets can stick around in their ultra mode mode starmap. one isn't detracting from the other. players already and always made builds around the lvl 150 mark so this is nothing new, except a change of scenery from simulacrum, which DE steve wanted. now i just wish they upped the mod drop chances and resource drops from hard and ultra hard mode. that many of the old vets would be coming back in droves, since i see everywhere on reddit, steam, twitch and youtube, saying how vets are more interested with cautious optimism. railjack doesn't need any hard mode though, i will give you that. 

Sadly, 150+ enemies isn't the top...like the room that DE_Dru...DE_Goose hates so much...being topped out at 170 (175 at MR 30?)...so builds will be built to work for much higher than the top range currently possible in the room DE game designer drinks too much hates.

The concerns some have expressed is actually used in your comment as a positive. That some players will want the normal mode missions and others will want the 'hard or ultra hard' mode missions. The concern I have read is that it splits the player base so getting a squad via public may be more difficult. Not sure this is as big of a concern as some say it could be...but it could happen.

The whole concept is just adding the the power creep problem for Waframe...but DE will do what it wants...or really what the 1% 'leet' players want...

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Introduction and Motivation: Warframe is a game about preparation. If you have collected all the items, frames, and weapons, then ultimately all current content is trivial after choosing a loadout that trivializes it. So, warframe's difficulty isn't in the missions, it's in the arsenal. I think that "Hard Mode" as proposed in yesterday's devstream will be no different, but I'll retract that when it arrives if there actually is difficulty in the missions due to some as yet unknown modifier. 

Hard Mode Suggestion: For me, the ideal "Hard Mode" would be missions with all enemies set around level 40, but it takes away your ability to prepare entirely. Every team member who joins is given a random, unmodded warframe, with random unmodded weapons, no gear and no operator. This would require "Hard Mode" players to know all the warframes' strengths and weaknesses, work together as a team, manage their energy, know when to push forward and when to retreat, etc... Ultimately, I think this would make for a far more interesting and varied experience. The obvious downside is that players will feel like they wasted their time collecting all this shiny stuff only for it to be disabled because the game let them get too powerful. Therefore I think there has to be some Lore added to give a plausible reason why these things are taken away. I would suggest something like the following:

The tenno enters the mission with their chosen loadout, mods, arcanes, operator, gear and all, ready to effortlessly wipe out another horde of enemies while watching TV. The lights flicker and a voice calls out in a sinister whisper. "Tenno, we've been watching. We watched as you awoke. Watched... as you discovered your true nature. Watched you collect all these... things. Watched as you made all these modifications. Tell me Tenno, what are you? Without these … shiny toys." The Tenno is then forced into operator mode, and upon returning to the warframe, discovers that this is not the correct warframe. The transference signal has been rerouted.

Based on the game lore, I have an idea for who this voice could be, but I'm not going to spend time in this post fleshing out lore. What I'm more interested in is if people would be receptive of a "Hard Mode" style like this that negates a lot of the systems we've all collected already. Of course, it's not ideal. The ideal case would be a balanced game where difficulty could be tailored to the player power level. Unfortunately, the player power level is so astronomically high that I'm not sure anything like that could exist without a serious nerf to essentially all mods, operator, arcanes etc... first. 

Of course, something like I suggest has been suggested before. One of the common arguments against it is that "you can do this already! Just unequip all your mods!" While this is true, the mentality in the two cases is very different. In one case, the players are being forced to adapt and work together in difficult circumstances. In the other, the player is self-sabotaging. This difference of mentality distinctly separates the two cases. It's the difference between failing a mission and saying "Damn, I need to get better!" and "Damn, well I lost only because I self-sabotaged." 

Hard Mode Rewards: These reward suggestions can be used for the above suggestion, or for the "just increase enemy level" hard mode version. 

1. An item that, when used on a weapon, let's you model swap for another weapon in its class. For example, let me take my Karak and make it look like a Braton.

2. An item that, when used on a weapon, let's you swap its firing sound for that of another weapon in its class. For example, let my Vectis sound like a Rubico. 

3. An item that, when used on a riven, allows you to "infuse" it with focus points / resources to increase its stats up to the current maximum. (We currently have that two rivens with the same stats can with different numbers, up to a maximum) *This is not power creep since these rivens already exist, albeit with possibly insane prices. This suggestion may help tame the riven economy.

4. An item that, when used on a riven, allows you to lock a stat, so that when you reroll it, that one stat will definitely remain. Increases riven reroll cost and requires extra resources / focus points. *Again, not power creep since you could just pay insane prices to get the perfect riven you want. This suggestion may help tame the riven economy. 

(Suggestions 3 & 4 can make the modified rivens untradeable, if the current riven market is preferable)

5. Ship decorations (not my favourite, but I recognize some people like this.)

6. An item that lets you design your kavat / kubrow before birth so you get exactly the features you want. (This is debatable, since some players enjoy pet breeding and buying / selling rare combinations.)

The idea with these rewards is that they should be things that endgame players would want. But, they cannot be things that increase mastery or power because that would then force casual players to play something more difficult in order to be at the same power level, which is something the community has generally resisted.

Please let me know what you think about the suggestion and/or the potential rewards listed above. I look forward to some interesting discussions!

 

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12 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

The normal star chart will be even more a wasteland and meeting people on the way will become a really rare event. New players will have to think this is a solo game even though they play online. They'll have to clean the start chart once before being able to group with "high end" players...

Have you played much star chart lately?  Genuine question.  I'm curious how many people you see, and how many are vets.  The only recent experience I have with it outside of Hydron is Semeini.  That seems  well populated with newer players, but might not be representative.

There's also the larger goal here, which is that the new mode will hopefully give vets a reason to return, and post-starchart people more reason to stick around.  If it succeeds in that, it's likely a net positive even if comes with some costs.

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17 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Don't get me wrong, I know liches missions are particular nodes which may be randomized on this or that planet for each player, and feature a special game mode including Thrall and maybe even your lich if you are lucky, but overall, except the one rotation limit, they work the same way as the incoming hard mode :

-Improved enemy level
-Division of the player base playing on the same nodes on the same planet, but with different level/end game objectives.

 

Creating a new layers of nodes, "Hard nodes", and even "Ultra hard nodes", added to the current normal/event/syndicates/sorties/kuva/fissures/invasions is, IMHO, a bad idea. Even if I really like the idea of fighting quicker higher enemy level, I'll see clearly the divison of the community it will create, again, and this needs to stop on a declining playerbase.

Here are some of my thoughts on the topic and would like to take this discussion further than just yes, no and you suck kinda mentality

1. Liches:
Yes, they can be fun, but also annoying. As someone who has done a few missions and just taken part in hosting murmur farming I can say they cannot replace a hard mode. You can kill the Lich level one if you guess the code correctly.

As stated by one of the Lich: "There are three solutions in which you win, 439 in which you die." That is a 1/146.333 = 0.683% chance of guessing the answer on the first try. That being said, the only hard difficulty comes from when facing a level 5 Lich, which technically becomes a sortie boss. I can easily go into level 100-140 and clear the enemies in one shot using my Bramma and Mirage build. The difficulty can further be removed by using stealth frames. You cant hit what you cant see, and neither can the AI, assuming you are using a silent weapon and moving. Even if you arent using a silent weapon, as long as you keep on moving while invis, the enemies aim at the last place you shot from as that is where the sound/projectiles came from. If you want to take it further bring a Mesa and use her ability to melt the Lich.

Staying on the topic of Liches lets talk about the so called divide. There is already a technical divide for missions. You are not playing the same mission as someone else who is playing Nightmare mode on the same node. They are not in the same session as you. You can access Lich missions if the host taxi's you to the node, but reap no rewards if you havent caught a new larvling, or have a Lich to begin with. You cannot play the lich nodes/missions until you get a Lich. You are not killing the same boss even if you are running the same mission, only the player who owns the Lich gets to kill it or capture it. You reap no reward besides maybe Kuva.

2. Hard Mode and Ultra Hard Mode:

From my point of view there will not be a divide as in order to access said nodes you first need to clear the entire star chart. Hard mode or Ultra Hard mode to which I will refer to as HM or UHM from now on will not be node specific. It is the same chart but with +50 level on the HM and I am assuming +100 on UHM. By the time you have cleared the star chart you should be able to take on level 100 enemies. If not then you can continue farming on normal missions to get better MR and unlock higher MR locked weapons. The HM will have better loot table and higher level enemies for which we will not need to stay in a survival mission for more than 45+ mins. This will allow players who want better loot or higher difficulty to have more options. They might increase the EXP gained from said missions to incentivize player to try unlocking higher ranks and making better builds.

Here is where I have gotten my info for the Hard Mode: https://youtu.be/KVUBBlceBgQ?t=2811

The player base is declining as there is very little to do after you have cleared a star chart, built the warframes you want, gotten all the mods you need and collected all the floofs. Let me know where you think the division might be so I can see your point of view

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5 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Sadly, 150+ enemies isn't the top...like the room that DE_Dru...DE_Goose hates so much...being topped out at 170 (175 at MR 30?)...so builds will be built to work for much higher than the top range currently possible in the room DE game designer drinks too much hates.

The concerns some have expressed is actually used in your comment as a positive. That some players will want the normal mode missions and others will want the 'hard or ultra hard' mode missions. The concern I have read is that it splits the player base so getting a squad via public may be more difficult. Not sure this is as big of a concern as some say it could be...but it could happen.

The whole concept is just adding the the power creep problem for Waframe...but DE will do what it wants...or really what the 1% 'leet' players want...

power creep always existed from 2016, be it stronger frames, stronger weapons, rivens, stronger mods you name it. this isn't 2013 warframe where fighting lvl 50 was a challenge. vets have always been wanting to play from lvl 100+ from the get go rather than tediously wait 1-2 hrs, that's all. you have like 30 million registered players and around 70-90k players who play the game in a day, 50-70k now combining steam and normal warframe viewers. that's like less that 1% and most of them loyal vets who like to spend money on fashion and power. and even less around 7000-10k forum users here

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il y a 56 minutes, dwqrf a dit :

Creating a new layers of nodes, "Hard nodes", and even "Ultra hard nodes", added to the current normal/event/syndicates/sorties/kuva/fissures/invasions is, IMHO, a bad idea. Even if I really like the idea of fighting quicker higher enemy level, I'll see clearly the divison of the community it will create, again, and this needs to stop on a declining playerbase.

1) lich missions are the worst piece of design in DEvs history, also, they're not missions, just reskinned thrall hunts. You can't do more than one set of endless rotation to worsen the issue. 

2) the divison is already there, only even worse. All this would do is give people who have everything a place to blow off steam against decent enemies. Are you a fan of spending the first 1h30m of every mission half sleeping? I'm not. 

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Mentioned from the start Lich shouldn't have had this extra layer of nodes.

You have to choose to hunt a lich. the lich has to spawn on a specific region. You have to choose a now randomized mode node in that region. Who knows if anyone is actually playing there.

Could have been a single new node for that planet everyone with a lich can reach so they are all funneled together. Offers a cycling mission type every so often.

Normal 257 nodes, nightmare ~32 nodes, syndicate 18 nodes, invasion ~4-20 nodes, Kuva ~6 nodes, Relics ~5-10 nodes. Lich ~10-50 nodes. Now Hard+50 ~190 nodes, Harder+100 ~190 nodes

50k players between 800+ different possible missions at any given time is... a little ridiculous? Maybe solo is the majority. Maybe that's why DE gave up trying to consolidate the community and remove superfluous nodes since the last starchart remake.

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Just now, kevoisvevo said:

power creep always existed from 2016, be it stronger frames, stronger weapons, rivens, stronger mods you name it. this isn't 2013 warframe where fighting lvl 50 was a challenge. vets have always been wanting to play from lvl 100+ from the get go rather than tediously wait 1-2 hrs, that's all. you have like 30 million registered players and around 70-90k players who play the game in a day, 50-70k now combining steam and normal warframe viewers. that's like less that 1% and most of them loyal vets who like to spend money on fashion and power. and even less around 7000-10k forum users here

Glad to see you agree with the power creep being a problem. This just adds to the problem. No new content will end up being challenging because of it.

Great idea...give the player base less challenging content moving forward. Wonderful idea.

 

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Maybe the solution is just put hard mode on one or two nodes per planet or rotate them in and out like kuva or relic missions. 

This would keep star chart as is and ensure hard mode is full.  

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il y a 11 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Have you played much star chart lately? There's also the larger goal here, which is that the new mode will hopefully give vets a reason to return, and post-starchart people more reason to stick around.

No, I don't usually run random run, i'm always looking for "something" or doing the events. But when I used to hunt Kuria, even a year ago, that was rare to meet people. Still, I tried to run the kuria hunt onto fissure or other gamemodes, cross farming is always the best. Thing is, you can't cross farm liches, for example, and we might not be able to crossfarm Hard mode with anything.

il y a 8 minutes, ElvenKingLokiLive a dit :

From my point of view there will not be a divide as in order to access said nodes you first need to clear the entire star chart. Hard mode or Ultra Hard mode to which I will refer to as HM or UHM from now on will not be node specific. It is the same chart but with +50 level on the HM and I am assuming +100 on UHM. By the time you have cleared the star chart you should be able to take on level 100 enemies. If not then you can continue farming on normal missions to get better MR and unlock higher MR locked weapons. The HM will have better loot table and higher level enemies for which we will not need to stay in a survival mission for more than 45+ mins. This will allow players who want better loot or higher difficulty to have more options. They might increase the EXP gained from said missions to incentivize player to try unlocking higher ranks and making better builds.

But that's the thing, this will divide the community into a bunch of new layer. Why not having a new planet, for example, starting at 150 with all the map layout ?

il y a 7 minutes, Autongnosis a dit :

the divison is already there, only even worse. All this would do is give people who have everything a place to blow off steam against decent enemies. Are you a fan of spending the first 1h30m of every mission half sleeping? I'm not. 

I'm not against the higher level mission, i'm against the new +500 nodes DE is thinking about putting in the game.

il y a 5 minutes, Firetempest a dit :

Normal 257 nodes, nightmare ~32 nodes, syndicate 18 nodes, invasion ~4-20 nodes, Kuva ~6 nodes, Relics ~5-10 nodes. Lich ~10-50 nodes. Now Hard+50 ~190 nodes, Harder+100 ~190 nodes

50k players between 800+ different possible missions at any given time is... a little ridiculous? Maybe solo is the majority. Maybe that's why DE gave up trying to consolidate the community and remove superfluous nodes since the last starchart remake.

This. It's not about the liches mission people, that was an example of a disconnected new layers of high level mission. Try to understand the point.

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3 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Glad to see you agree with the power creep being a problem. This just adds to the problem. No new content will end up being challenging because of it.

Great idea...give the player base less challenging content moving forward. Wonderful idea.

 

like i said, give any new core game content,  the hard and ultra hard option treatment. normal players can play on normal lvl enjoying the new content. vets can ramp up the difficulty of new content the way they like. this is just same with how many games work in the market. monster hunter and path of exiles have a hard mode. borderlands 3 does too, so why shouldn't warframe now in 2020? i think DE is still planning on balancing any future content around the lvl 40-60 mark for the normal player. they are just giving the option for vets to increase their enemy levels and most likely that's it. i don't see how that detracts from the challenge. what you have now is that most of the players play a node 2-3 times and just never touch it again, leading to immense player fall off in the game charts. 

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When this comes out new players might as well keep matchmaking locked to solo. There still will be people running hydron I'm sure, but if this new hard mode is even remotely more rewarding and worth doing over the regular nodes then the regular star chart will be even more of a ghost town than it already is. Honestly I hope DE tweaks the new player experience to circumvent this but we will see I guess.

In fact the same will happen with hard mode as well. Once most active vets speed through hard mode and move onto ultra, the hard mode map will also be mostly empty only with the most efficient nodes remaining fairly active, and again with the ultra star chart.

Maybe the whole node system needs a rework but that's a whole beast of it's own.

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Would be nice, but always remember that is a heavy portion of the playerbase that isn't ready for regular sorties, if you trown them into something seriously difficult where they need to kill enemies (like a survival), then things may go out of players control, not everyone can compenssate when other players can't kill stuff.

With the introduction of self reviving, completing missions has been made easier, i don't know if DE will add harder version of sorties, i mean it sure sounds fun, but some players will dislike it for sure.

Harder sorties, fine by me.

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I'd be all for something akin to the Grendel missions, where your Mods all get taken away.  This way, you can at least know what the heck you're going into a mission with and play around that instead of getting, I dunno...  Saryn with a Flux Rifle, Stug, and Skana.

It's a nice idea, and would make for an interesting mode of play, but it'd also be hard primarily due to RNG.  We deal with enough RNG as-is. 

Maybe have this mode be 'Randomizer Mode' instead with this reward table, and 'group' the weapons and Warframes based on relative power and usage, excluding special variants (ie, no Prismas, Primes, Kuva variants, etc) and pull from these tables?

So say Baruuk's in D-tier.  If you get him, you'll land weaponry from C-tier and above, meanwhile if you get Saryn, who's S-tier, your weaponry's gonna be C-tier and below instead.

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What is going to be hard about these modes if the numbers are gonna sti show Red Crits and powers destroying the enemies before they enter your field of view?

And the stinking Power Ranger naming of Super Mega Supreme Ultra Omega is a toss at the lowbrow denomination.

Lich nodes are hard mode with the prospect of covering the whole of the star charts with Infested, Corpus, and Sentinets instead of just Grinny. And we All know that most Hardcore players avoid the Corpus as Nullifier stop their powers from working....so it is going to be Grinny and Infested

I am all for making things harder for those who want to test their power out....but I do not see the difference in hitting a level 9999 with 5 red Crits that kill it and hitting a level 35 with a red crit that kills it. They still died to a red crit and you are still dealing the same amount of damage. If the red Crits become just a 1....players will cry bullet sponge. If the red Crits hit and the enemy go into invulnerable mode for a few seconds, players will say that the game is cheesing their damage output. If the enemy folds under a barrage of powers and red Crits, it's still not a challenge. No matter what they do...the ones who are always looking for harder are gonna crymoan it's not hard enough cuz they ha e no idea what they need to have hard

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10 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But that's the thing, this will divide the community into a bunch of new layer. Why not having a new planet, for example, starting at 150 with all the map layout ?

I'm not against the higher level mission, i'm against the new +500 nodes DE is thinking about putting in the game.

How will a new planet that has high level enemies that only players with high enough build clear out, not create a divide? If they create a new planet, they will need to create a lore for it, where did it come from? Why it was hidden? What caused it to appear? 

How many nodes can you slap on one planet and call it good enough? If you were to eat the same 7-8 meals every week or so with slight variations for more than a few months I am sure it will get a bit boring and you will want to stop doing that. Telling players that there is a hard mode and you can get better drops on it just causes players want to reach that. By creating so called new nodes, DE is creating a reason to stay and play the game after they have cleared the initial content. There is only so many times Konzu can have an early lunch, before the players stop going there.

IF you are not against higher level missions, how do you propose DE go about implementing it into the system? We surely cant do hourly missions as that is too much downtime, which allow players to think they should go do something else. It would be arbys all over again where someone just decides to leave because they dont want to play anymore, causing you wait for a long as time.

If we keep on telling someone their faults that they are unaware of and not tell them how to improve they will stop listening. If we think that the new mode might divide the player base then we need to come up with a new way that can possibly help DE to make the game better, in return better for us

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3 minutes ago, Sintag said:

I'd be all for something akin to the Grendel missions, where your Mods all get taken away.  This way, you can at least know what the heck you're going into a mission with and play around that instead of getting, I dunno...  Saryn with a Flux Rifle, Stug, and Skana.

It's a nice idea, and would make for an interesting mode of play, but it'd also be hard primarily due to RNG.  We deal with enough RNG as-is.

I think Saryn with Flux Rifle, Stug, and Skana would actually be a pretty good random loadout to receive 🙂 The spores damage scales even without mods and the Flux Rifle can spread them easily. But I take your point, you might end up with a loadout that makes things more difficult. The problem with the Grendel mission style is that it makes the content trivial again, since you can always choose a trinity or two in the team to keep everyone's energy up so they can spam abilities (which trivializes everything all over again!)

But the statement that you might end up with a loadout that makes things more difficult, is exactly the point! My whole point is that an unfavourable loadout means you not only have to adapt and work together with your teammates, but you'll also need to know how all the frames work to ensure that you'll be effective in any scenario. After all, it's purpose is "Hard Mode." Keep in mind that modded weapons have a large variety in effectiveness, when they're unmodded they're far more balanced.

You're right that we deal with a lot of RNG in general, and I think this suggestion flips it the other way around. Typically, our loadouts are chosen to trivialize the content, and the content provides random rewards. In this case, I would like the loadouts to be randomized, and the mission to provide a type of tokens (think vitus essence) that can then be used in a store to purchase exactly what items you want (I have an idea for where this store can fit lore-wise also). So then there's no RNG in the rewards.

Let me know what you think of this. And, if you can think of a way to do the Grendel style missions without it developing into another "meta combination of frames that trivializes everything all over again" situation, let me know! It might be possible if we add things like ability cooldown? 

 

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