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Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream


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il y a 20 minutes, nickelshark a dit :

When this comes out new players might as well keep matchmaking locked to solo.

In fact the same will happen with hard mode as well.

Yes. New players might not even realize they play online only because they will never meet people on the normal or hard mode. It's like in any failing mmorpg : starting zone are empty and people only play in the popular new extension zone where you can get all the sweet stuff. What's the point of having a whole solar system if it's empty ? TESO had to find a smart way to circumvent that by making any enemies adapt to Your own actual level wherever the zone.

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Derp, I didn't realize DE was cloning the entire starchart rather than specific nodes.    Yikes.

28 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

Could have been a single new node for that planet everyone with a lich can reach so they are all funneled together. Offers a cycling mission type every so often.

Normal 257 nodes, nightmare ~32 nodes, syndicate 18 nodes, invasion ~4-20 nodes, Kuva ~6 nodes, Relics ~5-10 nodes. Lich ~10-50 nodes. Now Hard+50 ~190 nodes, Harder+100 ~190 nodes

.

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23 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Jeez, you guys won't be satisfied until you're pi*sing on this game's grave, will you?

Need more clarification here, since this added absolutely nothing.  Adding some new difficulty (for those who want it) isn't harming anything. Most solo players can't play RJ right now either, and it doesn't hurt them for RJ existing. 

25 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

heavy portion of the playerbase that isn't ready for regular sorties

100% of players who start an expansion in WoW aren't ready for end-expansion raids either, and a large portion still don't even attempt those raids, even in LFR. Doesn't mean those raids shouldn't exist for those who want to play them (a great example is conclave for the handful of players who participate, instead of removing it like raids.)

27 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Harder sorties, fine by me.

I seen this, just wanted to point out the above for those who don't like the idea of harder content.

Also, I'm in full support of harder content, if the rewards match. No credit caches/common mods.

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I think the point of hard mode is to separate hard mode from existing content - a 'new game plus' if you will.

 

So instead of needing to hunt down Kuva Floods and Sorties and Liches with extra modifiers (the Siphon, Thralls or Liches or... well, modifiers) you can just play through the starchart, but at a higher level.

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i agree with op. liches, arbitration and sortie already constitute "hard mode"

these activities are hard because of higher enemy levels, but also, sorties have sortie conditions, arbitration has drones, and lich missions have thralls (and well, liches)

these activities cover all game modes and all factions

"hard mode" on top of this seems completely redundant 

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il y a 2 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I think the point of hard mode is to separate hard mode from existing content - a 'new game plus' if you will.

 

So instead of needing to hunt down Kuva Floods and Sorties and Liches with extra modifiers (the Siphon, Thralls or Liches or... well, modifiers) you can just play through the starchart, but at a higher level.

Yes, but could make one node per planet, for example, starting at 150, or so; which could change gametype every so often. Like nightmare nodes. I don't see the point of cloning the whole start chart twice more, and if i'm not mistaken, that's the idea.

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I see a lot of people hoping new rewards for those "hard mode" missions. But what king of rewards ? More items to make your warframe even more powerfull and then cry because even in harde mode it became too easy ?

DE will add "hard mode" because a lot of player wanted it. But now I've the impression than the players are more interested with the rewards than the difficulty itself.

It the shame that the majority of players is a bunch of zombies who need a carrot to play games.

In my case, I really don't care about the rewards. My warframe can melt lv 500+ ennemies, all I want is a challenge for the FUN.

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il y a 24 minutes, ElvenKingLokiLive a dit :

 how do you propose DE go about implementing it into the system?

I would simply put a toggle associated with a vote, on the group board, before launching mission, stating "hard mode", boosting enemies level by +100, whatever the mission, (any - including fissures, kuva, sortie, orbs, railjack, all of them) for no additionall rewards expect boosted xp (by higher level). I would play it.

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1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, but could make one node per planet, for example, starting at 150, or so; which could change gametype every so often. Like nightmare nodes. I don't see the point of cloning the whole start chart twice more, and if i'm not mistaken, that's the idea.

The point, as stated, was to try and offer higher level missions to those who want them, with no strings attached.

It floating about from node to node IS a string attached - if somebody wants to play a level 150 exterminate on the Grineer, then hard mode lets them. If it's floating about the starchart, then there's a pretty significant chance that they're not going to get that option.

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6 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Need more clarification here, since this added absolutely nothing.  Adding some new difficulty (for those who want it) isn't harming anything. Most solo players can't play RJ right now either, and it doesn't hurt them for RJ existing. 

What do you want me to say? This thing's not even out yet and you guys keep demanding more and more and more. There's no satisfying you greedy bunch, is it?

But if you want me to "add something", yeah, I'm fine with hard more sortie... AS LONG as the rewards are exactly the same as normal mode sortie. And that goes for the upcoming hard and ultra hard modes too.

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For that I'd rather go with something like v this v .Though this would just be its own game mode rather than a widespread hard mode.

And in all honesty, for hard mode itself, I'd be already massively happy if it offered greater resource chances and greater xp, along with some unique rewards. About Scott's description of what he wants it to be, I hope he keeps on track with his original idea, honestly.

Not that a "Hard Mode - Random Gear" mode would be unable to coexist with any of these ideas, however.

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6 minutes ago, UC21 said:

I see a lot of people hoping new rewards for those "hard mode" missions. But what king of rewards ? More items to make your warframe even more powerfull and then cry because even in harde mode it became too easy ?

DE will add "hard mode" because a lot of player wanted it. But now I've the impression than the players are more interested with the rewards than the difficulty itself.

It the shame that the majority of players is a bunch of zombies who need a carrot to play games.

In my case, I really don't care about the rewards. My warframe can melt lv 500+ ennemies, all I want is a challenge for the FUN.

Cant blame them,After few hundreds hours or at least after finishing story quests in the game theres nothing to do cept getting stuff.

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1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

I would simply put a toggle associated with a vote, on the group board, before launching mission, stating "hard mode", boosting enemies level by +100, whatever the mission, (any - including fissures, kuva, sortie, orbs, railjack, all of them) for no additionall rewards expect boosted xp (by higher level). I would play it.

I saw this idea in another thread as well but the issue with that arises when one or more player want to play normal/easy mode than the other player that want to play on hard mode. 

What if we got to chose the difficulty of the mission and then we got teamed up with other players? I am sure this is appealing, but I dont believe this is any different than that having to clear the entire star chart. 

Although, it would be better to have the difficulty selection rather than overwhelming the players with nodes. Perhaps unlock higher level of difficulty on the same node, but that would cause players to just clear out Hydron over and over again for loot cave exp farm. Perhaps having an option select for the difficulty would be better, but how would we go about unlocking higher options? I for one don't want to clear the star chart again. 

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5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

.. AS LONG as the rewards are exactly the same

The only difference I want is you get a unique cosmetic - that's about it. Don't want it to become' You have to do the ultra hard sortie to get the best rewards' kind of thing. The choice should be there, and if you want to do it - it's there.

I do think they need to clean up the sortie reward table, and also increase the chance for a legendary core for each sortie you do (I don't see why getting 2-3 a year would be a bad thing, on average). I still haven't received one from sortie, just when DE gave them out.

  Edit:

5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

This thing's not even out yet and you guys keep demanding more and more and more.

Also I'd argue OP's question is a legitimate one. Considering hard mode/ultra hard will surpass sortie level, it is something that needs to be looked at, even if it only adds a cosmetic or sigil to say "hey I did this". Nothing demanding about that. 

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22 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Difficulty, in this instance, seems to be more level-based than it is actually gameplay-based.

There is some step toward greater difficulty by ramping up levels. Higher-levels enemies deal more damage and need to take more of it to die, so a player needs to step up the amounts of damage they can effectively deal and sustain (either by raw stats or by employing other strategies) to succeed. This comes off more as a challenge to mastery* than it does to skill**, though. More difficult gear checks and knowledge checks, but the skill checks remain the same.

Enemy level doesn't mean much for difficulty in many cases. Namely cases where we can have 90+% DR, CC enemies without recourse, or just go invisible. 

I like your suggestions, and would like to pile on some more ideas:

  • Sometimes the Capture target is a Nox, or a Manic.
  • Enemies start sharing intelligence across a mission, adapting to your strategies. A large number of sniper kills have enemies making more use of cover. Melee kills tilt things to the  generation of more airborne enemies. The enemy forces deploy more specifically to counteract the Tenno. (No idea how they'd implement this at all, just the shell of an idea here)
  • Visible "floor is lava alarm" spots in Spy vaults, having players use Parkour more effectively.
  • Speed up melee units so they can actually do something before their demise.
  • Make enemy elemental procs more common (as in greater variety within enemy populations, not more frequent) to promote the use of defensive features and upgrades.

*Mastery here meaning: overall progression, upgrades library, knowledge of mod interactions and damage types, understanding special in-game interactions between player, environment and enemy.

**Skill here meaning the ability to iterate on ideas with precise control inputs in a timely fashion.

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2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

except the one rotation limit

That's a pretty big limit. The people asking for hard mode don't want it for the novelty, they want it for A) the idea of "harder challenge, better rewards" such as packs of forma or legendary cores or something, and B) the illusion those rewards won't have a 5% drop rate on Rotation C

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37 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

like i said, give any new core game content,  the hard and ultra hard option treatment. normal players can play on normal lvl enjoying the new content. vets can ramp up the difficulty of new content the way they like. this is just same with how many games work in the market. monster hunter and path of exiles have a hard mode. borderlands 3 does too, so why shouldn't warframe now in 2020? i think DE is still planning on balancing any future content around the lvl 40-60 mark for the normal player. they are just giving the option for vets to increase their enemy levels and most likely that's it. i don't see how that detracts from the challenge. what you have now is that most of the players play a node 2-3 times and just never touch it again, leading to immense player fall off in the game charts. 

Agree with you 100%. Power creep is a problem in Warframe and this new hard/ultra hard mode just added to that problem.

The solution being a Path of Exile type 'hard mode' seems a perfect solution. Want a challenge? Run in 'hard mode'...die...make a new Tenno...oh wait...that didn't work out as planned...so now when you die in 'hard mode' you can only play in 'standard' mode.

Quote

These four leagues exist permanently:

  • Standard is the default league and has no modifiers.
  • Hardcore has the hardcore modifier, meaning characters who die are moved to Standard. Hardcore is equivalent to permadeath in other RPGs, though characters and items are not automatically deleted.

In addition to standard and hardcore, a Solo Self-Found variant for each exists. In these leagues, player's can't trade or party with other players and have to rely solely on the items they find themselves.

  • SSF Standard is the default league with the SSF flag
  • SSF Hardcore has the hardcore and SSF flags

Characters used in certain races (notably Descent, Descent: Champions and Endless Ledge races) are afterwards sent to a Void League instead of being deleted. Players can't access these characters or their inventories; void characters can only be deleted or kept as a sort of trophy.

Link to information about Path of Exile 'game modes'

At least making players create new accounts to be able to play will boost DE's claimed 'player accounts' to show growth!

Adding this idea is an even better idea for Warframe.

 

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il y a 2 minutes, TARINunit9 a dit :

That's a pretty big limit. The people asking for hard mode don't want it for the novelty, they want it for A) the idea of "harder challenge, better rewards" such as packs of forma or legendary cores or something, and B) the illusion those rewards won't have a 5% drop rate on Rotation C

Then nobody is gonna play anything "normal" if the rewards are better there, because let's be honest, level 150-300 is still a joke for the gear we have. But yeah, I was poiting out the lich mission as a example of a diconnected "harder" mission nodes, only that.

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Elite Sorties: higher starting level ranges, more total missions, and multiple modifiers per missions. And if it should get a unique cosmetic I'd suggest a Stratos like emblem that counts your lifetime clears of the node.

But if anything ever changes regarding them then the current Sorties should remain untouched. No reason to push early-mid game players out of Sorties and their rewards.

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I absolutely want this to be an option but I do not want to have any mods, gear, or any warframe cosmetics tied to this game mode. If the mission drops relics, maybe drop already refined relics, bump up resource drops, more credits, things of that nature. I stay in the endurance fissure missions for those bonuses already. But if there's ship cosmetics, I want to be able to put mine in my dojo. 

 

As for power creep... A large of the player base builds so that they can wipe the floor with the enemy. I myself, build and test against lvl 170. I can face well past that. New content is already easy to us. If they give us a hard mode, we'll be able to shut up with the "everything in this game is super easy" so let us have our hard mode. 

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2 minutes ago, trst said:

Elite Sorties: higher starting level ranges, more total missions, and multiple modifiers per missions. And if it should get a unique cosmetic I'd suggest a Stratos like emblem that counts your lifetime clears of the node.

But if anything ever changes regarding them then the current Sorties should remain untouched. No reason to push early-mid game players out of Sorties and their rewards.

This is a great idea. Players can do normal or hard sorties to pull from same rewards table, but those that choose to do hard sorties get a counter on their "hard mode sortie" badge. Maybe even have it evolve over time. 

Would be perfect to me. Simple, to the point. Shouldn't be any pressure to play. 

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7 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I think Saryn with Flux Rifle, Stug, and Skana would actually be a pretty good random loadout to receive 🙂 The spores damage scales even without mods and the Flux Rifle can spread them easily. But I take your point, you might end up with a loadout that makes things more difficult. The problem with the Grendel mission style is that it makes the content trivial again, since you can always choose a trinity or two in the team to keep everyone's energy up so they can spam abilities (which trivializes everything all over again!)

But the statement that you might end up with a loadout that makes things more difficult, is exactly the point! My whole point is that an unfavourable loadout means you not only have to adapt and work together with your teammates, but you'll also need to know how all the frames work to ensure that you'll be effective in any scenario. After all, it's purpose is "Hard Mode." Keep in mind that modded weapons have a large variety in effectiveness, when they're unmodded they're far more balanced.

You're right that we deal with a lot of RNG in general, and I think this suggestion flips it the other way around. Typically, our loadouts are chosen to trivialize the content, and the content provides random rewards. In this case, I would like the loadouts to be randomized, and the mission to provide a type of tokens (think vitus essence) that can then be used in a store to purchase exactly what items you want (I have an idea for where this store can fit lore-wise also). So then there's no RNG in the rewards.

Let me know what you think of this. And, if you can think of a way to do the Grendel style missions without it developing into another "meta combination of frames that trivializes everything all over again" situation, let me know! It might be possible if we add things like ability cooldown? 

 

I do see your point, it's just that my issue primarily is that you might receive either a really good loadout that makes you a one-Tenno army, or a really janky loadout that makes you the team lodestone.  Ending up with a loadout that makes missions harder isn't my major issue.  Ending up with a loadout that's tough to work with because it's unsuited to the mission/enemy type is (ie: Ember with a Cernos, Stug, and Kama... against Corpus.  On a Survival.)  If the team ends up with loadouts that won't work with the mission and enemy type, even with all the team-play in the world, it's going to be a messy affair.

One solution I could suggest is to 'lock in' a weapon that you're guaranteed to have for the mission (downgraded to it's basic variant where possible, and again, with no Mods to speak of).  This way, at the very least, you have one weapon that will work with mission parameters.  It won't ensure the rest of your loadout, of course, but it won't entirely remove player agency.  Some randomization can be fun, but total randomization can end up a mess and leave results feeling entirely out of your control.  That's my problem with fully randomized loadouts.  Sometimes they can work, but other times you're left with a loss that occurred simply because what you were given was the wrong tool for the job.

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16 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Agree with you 100%. Power creep is a problem in Warframe and this new hard/ultra hard mode just added to that problem.

The solution being a Path of Exile type 'hard mode' seems a perfect solution. Want a challenge? Run in 'hard mode'...die...make a new Tenno...oh wait...that didn't work out as planned...so now when you die in 'hard mode' you can only play in 'standard' mode.

Link to information about Path of Exile 'game modes'

At least making players create new accounts to be able to play will boost DE's claimed 'player accounts' to show growth!

Adding this idea is an even better idea for Warframe.

 

What about just an ironman start chart mode. A reward for completing hard star chart without failing a mission once. If you fail, then you need to start over. 

Or at least break it down by planets. Compete a planet without a failed mission. 

I can definitely see people grouping up and staying together to clear a planet.

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The problem is how you implement the system and the reward behind them. 

What rewards people needs constantly?: Forma, Umbra Forma, Catalyst, Reactor.  Leave these to Night Wave and sorties.

What reasons people have to dive back into missions?: Replay value searching for lore items like Kurias, Leverian information cards, Concept art, Sounds for Octavia and Captura scenes. 

How hard mode and very hard mode should be accessed?: The same star chart in simulacrum where people can tweak adjust and experiment their builds using a forma build simulator. There are no rewards, no unlocks, no requirements or even time gates. This will be accessed as a reward when the whole star chart map is unlocked and all activities done by the player. There will be no alienation of players, no problem searching squads, no elitism, no preference or discrimination of players. 

This is a gratified simulacrum that every orbiter will have. What this mode will have, options for friendly fire on or off. Option for number of troops, Options for troop level up to 9000, options to have invisibility on or off, options to have finite number of life or infinite numbers of life, option to turn on or off revives. 

This will not produce issues with power creep players or hamper the whole game segregating the community more. These are real problems that are very likely to happen if rewards are connected to hard and ultra hard. 

Sephalon Simaris already solved this problem but Simaris was left doing the same service like the social aspect of it in a relay station. The relay stations needs updates, serious ones. The relate station needs a better tile set, it has an old one. The relay station must provide fun activities that justifies being there sharing with other players like special simulacrum levels such as passive competitions.

 

GrayDeath is 100% correct. He has a point. We have to be careful not asking for something that shot ourselves on the left feet as a community. We don't want to become DEstiny. This should be always WARFRAME. 

 

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