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Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream


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42 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

And you just hit the issue in the head.

People say the AI needs change and seemly forget how we just shut down the AI with our powers and mods.

It's gets to the point where we have people wondering if some enemies do anything else. Even the Conculysts. Someone asked if they do anything but their spin attack (they do, they wack you with their batons).

But if we make enemies resilient enough to show what they do, they are bullet sponges. If they have it invincibility phases like the Maniacs, they are boring. If they have high mobility, they are annoying. If they are actually a threat, they are cheesy. 

I gave up asking for difficulty here. I think I made a threat about it a long ass time ago.

Indeed. True skill-based difficulty is incompatible with the design of some frames, and those people who often complain about annoying, boring bullet sponges never propose how to deal with Saryn or Mesa, because they know quite well that the problem is not the enemy design/AI, but rather the frames themselves and their cognitive dissonance about it won't let them consider much needed nerfs, because they want it both ways.

That's why I've made my peace about it and gave up. I'm just happy to get higher enemy levels from the get go, and won't ask for more.

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Want a hard challenging game? 

 

War Frame is not it. Try something else. 

WF doesn't need to be a true challenge or a hard game in comparison with something else, and it will never be as long as Mesa and Saryn and Limbo exist in their current forms.

It just needs to be harder than what it currently is to make many people happy, and we are getting that.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)One_Angry_Goose said:

    Ship trophies are, admittedly, a bad idea. Hard mode is supposed to be an endgame, right? So, hear me out; if DE wants to give us a cosmetic reward, why not give us weapon ephemeras? Something flashy for players who, yknow, like killing things.

Im talking:

Unique kill effects: enemies turning into puddles of goo, crumbling into dust, vaporizing in a flash

Impact effects: leaving temporary energy filled cracks, a splatter of colorful goo, infested tumors

    Of course, these shouldn’t bee too intense. But just notable enough for hardcore players to show off.

So kinda like mods such as Peculiar Bloom without wasting a damn mod slot? Hell yeah!  Screw bonus XP or resources, I’m way more invested in the cosmetic endgame haha

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21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

WF doesn't need to be a true challenge or a hard game in comparison with something else, and it will never be as long as Mesa and Saryn and Limbo exist in their current forms.

It just needs to be harder than what it currently is to make many people happy, and we are getting that.

War Frame is a placebo comfort zone game that keeps people safe from harsh PVP lobbies of toxic bullies and good players focusing only on Power Fantasy and Mrs. Pageant fashion frame contest of 'look at me, look at me' and loot/grind/xp wall.

 

Asking for any type of real difficulty is just pipe pot dreams. 

 

That is the harsh reality of it and how this gets monetized. 

 

Warfrime IS A FARMING GAME, simple. 

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Just now, Felsagger said:

War Frame is a placebo comfort zone game that keeps people safe from harsh PVP lobbies of toxic bullies and good players focusing only on Power Fantasy and Mrs. Pageant fashion frame contest of 'look at me, look at me' and loot/grind/xp wall.

Asking for any type of real difficulty is just pipe pot dreams. 

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I'd be perfectly fine with just having the ability to play fissures on the hard modes. Anytime I am not forced to play sub level 100 mobs will be reward enough for me. In fact instead of 2 tiers why not 3? +50, +100, +150. 😎

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This has been a problem for the longest time and they've just ignore it.

Allowing new players access to "end game content" like kuva liches, arbitration, sorties etc. does two things:

1. Difficulty curve for new players just doesn't exist anymore, as they just leech off veterans/players who can carry them through missions.

Therefore they just get that new weapon/mod/frame/whatever without having to grind for their gear to be up to the challenge to EARN it, therefore no satisfaction in acquiring it. Easy, boring, gameplay ruined in the longrun.

2. Players such as myself who have been playing for a long time and have grinded through all the bugs and glitches, spending hours in your grind game, now have to also deal with these players that have no idea what they're doing.

They join arbitration, die in the first 5 minutes and expect to be revived every time it happens.

They join sorties, not able to deal any damage, not able to deal with the higher difficulty game mechanics such as spy missions, and expect to be carried while doing nothing to get a reward they don't deserve.

They spawn kuva liches, join kuva lich missions but can't kill their own lich because, yeah you guessed it, they charge at it with a mk-1 braton and die like a bug squashed under the boot.

 

The feeling of exclusivity in this game is dying fast. You can be a MR29, having seen and done it all, and still feel like you've achieved nothing when you see these kind of things.

And this is just one of the many problems.

For example I remember Steve saying in a stream, talking about making a part of the game more intractable, that a part of the dev team was "strongly" against it. God forbid we have more fun in the game and make it more interesting, having the time of my life right now jumping on walls in my orbiter thinking of something fun to do.

 

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During yesterday's Devstream, Steve said that one of the problems with implementing Hard Mode is Matchmaking. I have a suggestion for this.

This idea is inspired by an RPG called Sinner: Sacrifice for Redemption. In this game, as you defeat bosses, you get weaker. The enemies remain the same level but you are weaker and that is where the progression comes in.

Instead of having a completely separate mission for Hard Mode where the enemies are higher leveled, players could be take a "Tag" that makes enemies feel like they are higher-leveled when in reality, you are weaker.

For story reasons on why you are weaker, I have a couple of suggestions.

  1. Arbiters of Hexis are interested in the Tenno honing their skills. Thus, they provide you with a challenge in exchange for better rewards.
  2. Cephalon Simaris wishes to "immortalize" creatures in the Sanctuary, however in order to do so, he requires more data. Using "Tags", that Simaris provides you gives him data, but has some side-effects.
  3. Teshin wishes for the Tenno to hone their skills. Similar to the Arbiters of Hexis.

I feel that Teshin is the best option for this as it feels like a good way to introduce him to the Players as most people have not touched Conclave (PvP) and thus are surprised by his odd introduction during the Natah Quest

One of the only problems with this system is the fact that Regular Enemies and Elite Versions of said enemy have different weapons (Example: Lancers use Grakata, Elite Lancers use Hind)

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Yes leveling hordes more serves some purpose but pretending to seek great challenge here is just not the place. 

 

It is what it is. 

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I think they make you finish the star chart. Then you do the whole thing on hard then you can run ultra. Even being caried it’ll take you some time.

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 Enemy's Durability Scaling got destroyed to where you would have to wait until 4+ Hours to find durable enemies, and  turned Railjack into a Gamemode any good Player would complete in 2 - 6 Mins or less Solo. Really hope the same Mentality don't follow to Hard Mode tbh.

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6 minutes ago, --EC--Adrenaline said:

The feeling of exclusivity in this game is dying fast. You can be a MR29, having seen and done it all, and still feel like you've achieved nothing when you see these kind of things.

And this is just one of the many problems.

For example I remember Steve saying in a stream, talking about making a part of the game more intractable, that a part of the dev team was "strongly" against it. God forbid we have more fun in the game and make it more interesting, having the time of my life right now jumping on walls in my orbiter thinking of something fun to do

How long have you been playing this game for? Can you point me to a time in the game when things were ever "exclusive"? They've gone out of their way to make sure that pretty much everything outside some very specific cosmetics are available to everyone in a fair way.

Event weapons and rewards get recycled into the main game after a few months, Primes are available to earn in game even if you don't buy the Prime Access, and just generally they do their best to make sure people can see as much of the game as possible.

If you can't have fun with an aspect of the game without it being an exclusive club, that says more about you than about DE.

Sit bored on your orbiter, meanwhile I'll be out here helping the newer players, guilding them in builds, helping them get the gear they need to actually survive, and helping them train their skills, rather than telling them off for dying.

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So, we'll have proper content scaling after 3 Star Chart completions?

 

... Interesting, that's pretty much what 90% of the games in Nutaku do... They should just put everything on the most difficult stage and be done with it.

"What about new players?" That's where squads come into play. This is a valid reason for it.

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Oof, heavy rant. You can always make a premade team.

I always solo spy sorties, especially Kuva fortress, particularly because when it was new I was the one f'ing it up. I refuse to use a cheese frame through these advanced mechanics, I always lol when it's an Ivara that messes it up though.

Its your duty to give the new player base a reason to keep playing when they wind up in your group. Or you can choose to kill the playerbase also.

I do think we should obtain little frame specific cosmetics for farming & making them vs buying, but at the same time it's still a cheese fest for veterans anyway.

I remember several years ago when Loki was the most used by veteran player's. At that time nothing was more OP than completely stripping your enemies of their firearms, providing veterans aren't after skill or hardwork, just how to cheese the game, get mad at newbs when you're avidly the problem us kinda useless.

Besides all this is going to do is either force more cheese/balancing, or make a good portion of the available arsenal obsolete, which will effect everyone regardless.

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Everything at +9999 and be done with it, no equipment scale adjustments and no enemy nerfs, Solo exclusive.

 

 

I'm all fine with it if they actually do that, really... as is, not with all those "reworks" that are crapped out by other people and not from the Devs...

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You mean, you want  them to MR lock the thing ? Nah that's just gonna make it complicated, its better if they make it accessible when you unlock all nodes

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That's a problem but how would you make a properly made matchmaking? By completed arbitrations or sorties? Would be almost the same.

But the game can get damage and kills count per mission, that would be a good metric. Maybe.

I usually just solo sorties when my friends cant play with me (Most of times is just one of them) to avoid those kind of people, same goes for arbitrations. Thats a good thing from this game, can be played solo (some things), with randoms or with friends.

But of course, covering a problem doesnt solve it.

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This is aimed at the experienced players, the ones who can easily do 3 hrs solo if they choose to. this is something that warframe should've had ages ago, even from the get go. now the rewards (carrot on a stick) is just pure bullocks and strengthens beliefs that DE has nothing left in the tank and grasping for straws now.

 there are many things that they can implement in semi/ ultra hard modes that screams "i'm a badass playa" when one dons it, like a simple syandana, helmet, badges etc. for groups or clans trophies and dojo decos that are similar but different if you go solo, obtainable at time oriented intervals lets say every 30 to 45 mins/rounds. so visitors can see these upon entry of said place.

for the love brain power, do not make it another arbitration, nightwave or ESO set type of rewards or road map (boring as hell) or any of the open worlds time waiting to play bs.

it's funny to see DE breaking down and trying to save face now that their future isn't as bright as they would believe, by doing this move.

next up the return of Excal's PA which will be too late and the last nail in the coffin.

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I actually dont understand why people get upset with things like exclusive hard to get rewards etc. 

If people notice , DE seems to make new content seemingly difficult then ease or dumb down the grindiness etc of the game. It always happens.

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il y a 6 minutes, (NSW)Sniperfox47 a dit :

How long have you been playing this game for? Can you point me to a time in the game when things were ever "exclusive"? They've gone out of their way to make sure that pretty much everything outside some very specific cosmetics are available to everyone in a fair way.

Event weapons and rewards get recycled into the main game after a few months, Primes are available to earn in game even if you don't buy the Prime Access, and just generally they do their best to make sure people can see as much of the game as possible.

If you can't have fun with an aspect of the game without it being an exclusive club, that says more about you than about DE.

Sit bored on your orbiter, meanwhile I'll be out here helping the newer players, guilding them in builds, helping them get the gear they need to actually survive, and helping them train their skills, rather than telling them off for dying.

Man I'm all for helping players new or not high MR or no, I've spent hundreds of plat gifting slots/booster to people I don't know, my rant is not towards newbies but twords DE to still allow this. And by exclusivity I mean what I typed later, not cosmetics I don't care about that. Achievement feeling, you know, something you worked hard to get your hands on and are proud to have done it. There's nothing of the sort in this game. You can be a MR 5 and do end game content easily. Does that feel right to you?

 

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10 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I'm all fine with it if they actually do that, really... as is, not with all those "reworks" that are crapped out by other people and not from the Devs...

Well we all are happy for any new feature to the game but just throwing it out there without giving it context or consideration like it feels to be right now (a "Just give them +50 Levels so the veterans shut up") things might backfire. ("We waited 5 years for THIS?")

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1 minute ago, Salbeira said:

Well we all are happy for any new feature to the game but just throwing it out there without giving it context or consideration like it feels to be right now (a "Just give them +50 Levels so the veterans shut up") things might backfire. ("We waited 5 years for THIS?")

Right~...

... Perhaps the old Difficulty settings that the game had shouldn't have been removed, in the first place, as it gave increased rewards for higher difficulty settings...

 

... Oh well, better get preemptively used to the new modes. I know I'm going to enjoy them anyway.

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il y a 5 minutes, NigglesAU a dit :

I actually dont understand why people get upset with things like exclusive hard to get rewards etc. 

If people notice , DE seems to make new content seemingly difficult then ease or dumb down the grindiness etc of the game. It always happens.

Whats the point of easing down the grind difficulty if we've got the tools to deal with it. Like it just makes the grind worthless, for example you got a setup that can one shot lv150+, and obviously you put effort into grinding it and building it but what you have to deal is so easy there's no point.

It's like bringing a tank to a gun fight.

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3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What about just an ironman start chart mode. A reward for completing hard star chart without failing a mission once. If you fail, then you need to start over. 

Or at least break it down by planets. Compete a planet without a failed mission. 

I can definitely see people grouping up and staying together to clear a planet.

Interesting idea.

Not failing a mission...with higher level enemies (but not "insanely" high levels) might be interesting.

But to think a squad would run a planet when you can't get a squad to even run sorties (PUG at least) seems a stretch. Maybe from a clan / alliance tho.

Something to consider by DE...oh too late...5 years later they have decided to implement power creep modes.

 

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