Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream

[BDMblue]

16 minutes ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

How long have you been playing this game for? Can you point me to a time in the game when things were ever "exclusive"? They've gone out of their way to make sure that pretty much everything outside some very specific cosmetics are available to everyone in a fair way.

Event weapons and rewards get recycled into the main game after a few months, Primes are available to earn in game even if you don't buy the Prime Access, and just generally they do their best to make sure people can see as much of the game as possible.

If you can't have fun with an aspect of the game without it being an exclusive club, that says more about you than about DE.

Sit bored on your orbiter, meanwhile I'll be out here helping the newer players, guilding them in builds, helping them get the gear they need to actually survive, and helping them train their skills, rather than telling them off for dying.

I think it’s more not being carried and having some barrier. Like for instance to fight liches you would need to solo kill Kela De Thaym at level 100. To do this any MMR player with some understanding of modding mechanics could do it.

The approach they have of doing the whole star chart 2 times fine to me. Though at the same time I can happily Cary any one who’s poorly modded.

[GreyDeath789]

 

4 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

like i said, give any new core game content,  the hard and ultra hard option treatment. normal players can play on normal lvl enjoying the new content. vets can ramp up the difficulty of new content the way they like. this is just same with how many games work in the market. monster hunter and path of exiles have a hard mode. borderlands 3 does too, so why shouldn't warframe now in 2020? i think DE is still planning on balancing any future content around the lvl 40-60 mark for the normal player. they are just giving the option for vets to increase their enemy levels and most likely that's it. i don't see how that detracts from the challenge. what you have now is that most of the players play a node 2-3 times and just never touch it again, leading to immense player fall off in the game charts. 

 

2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

If by better you mean complete garbage yes. Warframe is based around instanced co-op and your idea is based around magical fanciful "ideas guy borrows unusable mechanics from a completely different game with completely different mechanical elements that DE has zero experience with."

No.

Well lets give credit where credit is due...this great idea of a Path of Exile type challenging mode is from @kevoisvevo

It is an amazing idea...probably better then the currently planned power creep mode.

BTW, my sarcasm button called and says it is missing the Warframe forums...geesh.

 

[--EC--Adrenaline]

il y a 4 minutes, SoulEchelon a dit :

New players would not only bring down the rest of the squad, but would not have any fun in such high level content. Player skill would be low, weapons/warframes would be low ranked, optimum mods would not be available, and so on. Either they'll be constantly downed in one shot, or forced to stick inside a bubble while shooting enemies for not even a fraction of their hp. Raising the difficulty of the base starchart to level 100+ enemy levels would absolutely destroy this game.

What DE is proposing with this update should work fine. The base starchart is kept new player friendly. Hard mode takes on 50+ level enemies. Ultra Hard adds 100+. The best thing about this, is that it's optional too. As Scott stated in the devstream, players aren't going to always want to fight insanely tough enemies. Sometimes being able to chill and just enjoy the massacre is preferable. Their choice of making multiple modes being opt-in is a good thing. More options = good.

I agree with that but, the problem remains, if those modes bring better rewards or same rewards but x2 or x3, it's gona be the same as it is with arbitration/sortie, people will want those better rewards and will jump in regardless if they're able to deal with the difficulty. 

il y a 4 minutes, iKitsuneko a dit :

Although i'm with you i don't think MR its a good measurement, leveling up things doesnt certify someone as good players, just in a certain way, a patient one.

As I said, an ELO can be made out from every mission results, a "contribution" metric.

Higher MR=higher level of game knowledge, which means a player know what to do and not do. Skill in this game doesn't matter.

You can throw a pro gamer from Counter Strike with a godly aim, but if he doesn't know anything about how things work he won't be able to do anything.

Edited May 9, 2020 by --EC--Adrenaline

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a une heure, Gabbynaru a dit :

Or it should just be the same rewards as in normal missions. You're already getting more of them anyway since the spawns are higher and elite enemies will spawn more often. That's reward enough.

Or did everyone crying for a hard mode mean they wanted better drops instead? Cause they got the hard mode they've been crying like babies for, anything else is pure greed.

They should just change the endo / credit rewards to match T3 missions and it'll be good.

[GreyDeath789]

3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

How hard mode and very hard mode should be accessed?: The same star chart in simulacrum where people can tweak adjust and experiment their builds using a forma build simulator. There are no rewards, no unlocks, no requirements or even time gates. This will be accessed as a reward when the whole star chart map is unlocked and all activities done by the player. There will be no alienation of players, no problem searching squads, no elitism, no preference or discrimination of players.

Another interesting idea...this could be very useful.

[Kai_Shiba]

4 minutes ago, --EC--Adrenaline said:

I agree with that but, the problem remains, if those modes bring better rewards or same rewards but x2 or x3, it's gona be the same as it is with arbitration/sortie, people will want those better rewards and will jump in regardless if they're able to deal with the difficulty. 

Higher MR=higher level of game knowledge, which means a player know what to do and not do. Skill in this game doesn't matter.

You can throw a pro gamer from Counter Strike with a godly aim, but if he doesn't know anything about how things work he won't be able to do anything.

Anyone can go to hydron and level up and get to high MR within a few weeks. I've seen high MR with a unleveled serrations and zero mods

The mastery tests aren't even good examples of how much knowledge you've earned in the game since most of them have little to poke at what you've learned.

[Talinthis]

4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, but could make one node per planet, for example, starting at 150, or so; which could change gametype every so often. Like nightmare nodes. I don't see the point of cloning the whole start chart twice more, and if i'm not mistaken, that's the idea.

yes and i really dont want this. inb4 they make some sort of decoration or reward for completing the entire starchart

[SoulEchelon]

2 minutes ago, --EC--Adrenaline said:

I agree with that but, the problem remains, if those modes bring better rewards or same rewards but x2 or x3, it's gona be the same as it is with arbitration/sortie.

Higher MR=higher level of game knowledge, which means a player know what to do and not do. Skill in this game doesn't matter.

You can throw a pro gamer from Counter Strike with a godly aim, but if he doesn't know anything about how things work he won't be able to do anything.

Well yeah, I actually do agree not to let new players access these hard/ultra hard modes. The reasons I stated were towards the person I quoted who didn't seem to understand that making the base star chart insanely difficult would not be enjoyable for new players.

Easiest way to deal with this is to make sure new players finish the starchart first (which DE stated in the devstream already if I remember correctly). I would also suggest doing the same with Ultra Hard too by making players play through the starchart on Hard first, but I'm sure folks would rage about that one. "DE's gating content again! Why do I have to work for it!?" and so on.

[Talinthis]

-

Edited May 9, 2020 by Talinthis
double post

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, SoulEchelon said:

I would also suggest doing the same with Ultra Hard too by making players play through the starchart on Hard first, but I'm sure folks would rage about that one. "DE's gating content again! Why do I have to work for it!?" and so on.

Happens extremely often in this Forum.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I don't know if MR locking would be right. I think having to do all the starchart is a fair prerequisite, but you still have to unlock the "hardchart" in order, starting with Earth and working your way around to Sedna and special tiles like Kuva Fortress and the Derelict. you should also be given much better rewards: I think large amounts of Void Traces would be welcome, as it would save on having to farm junk relics, but others have their own ideas for rewards, I'm sure.

I think a cool cosmetic that represents each planet would be nice, which you only get when that entire planet is done on Hard mode.

[--EC--Adrenaline]

il y a 12 minutes, Kai_Shiba a dit :

Anyone can go to hydron and level up and get to high MR within a few weeks. I've seen high MR with a unleveled serrations and zero mods

The mastery tests aren't even good examples of how much knowledge you've earned in the game since most of them have little to poke at what you've learned.

I don't think there's many people who get to MR20 for example and have still MR5 gear with unranked mods

 

il y a 11 minutes, SoulEchelon a dit :

Easiest way to deal with this is to make sure new players finish the starchart first (which DE stated in the devstream already if I remember correctly). I would also suggest doing the same with Ultra Hard too by making players play through the starchart on Hard first, but I'm sure folks would rage about that one. "DE's gating content again! Why do I have to work for it!?" and so on.

That's shouldn't even be questioned, but apparently that's not the case. I don't know who's making decisions about matchmaking balance but I know I'm absolutely not a fan of it.

God forbid people actually have to learn to play the game before they jump into higher difficulty.

[SneakyErvin]

Loot balancing would also be an issue, since they cant just change up drop tables or individual mob drops as they see fit depending on the level of them. Unless they make a very complicated system for the game that recognizes if you are weakened or not for a mission which would result in different drops and different rewards across the whole group.

Higher levels allow them to tailor that content seperately, like adding in the possibility for multiple rolls on cracked relics and whatnot if they ever decide on such a thing to reward playing "harder" content.

[renleech]

About ways to increase difficulty without bullet sponges or power creep, let me give you my history lesson (and my 2 cents):

In the Mass effect franchise, the 3 different titles gave different challenges.

1- In the first mass effect, enemies could neutralize your abilities and guns. anyone here remember sabotage and damping field? With sabotage, your gun was jammed and you had to switch gun. With damping field, it was a mine cast on the scenery with nullifier effect WITHOUT the shield attached. Another caveat was that heavy weapons were actually dangerous. When you saw rockets coming at you, you duck or dodge, or die.

2- In ME2, some abilities, like AI hacking and dominate only worked after you tore down defenses of the target, like shields and armor, or both. And there were 2 different types of shield, with different vulnerabilities.

3- In the 3rd game, the new challenge was diminishing returns. To give an example, Sabotage(in this case, a mix of ME1's sabotage and ai hacking), worked well only twice against the same target. 3rd time, less duration of the effect. subsequent uses turned the ability useless if abused.

Of course it was a different context, but i still think these ideas can work here, unless they are copyrighted.

Hard mode and ultra hard can have diminishing returns, harsher for ultra hard. Slightly increased enemy damage, but increased status chance of the enemies (greatly increased for ultra hard). Possibilities exist, DE just needs a little imagination.

Edited May 9, 2020 by renleech

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Possibly one of the worst ideas ever....

Power creep is already a problem in Warframe...now players will make builds for 150+ level enemies and run everything with those builds.

Next content release will be "easy" because enemies won't be at level 150+ and the boss won't be 150+...

But yes..."finally...this is the greatest thing ever..."

 

I dont see how this will lead to power creep.

We are already at the point where we build for things far beyond what we ever face in the game and use those builds for everything, the two hard mode options wont change that unless they shower us with power creep items that can take our strength even further above what we face. We use such builds already because they are the most efficient for us even though we dont really need them. You also seem to forget that the new releases that come after the hard modes are added will likely have hard mode options added to them aswell, aside from story quests and possibly specific events. I mean, why would they be released without out it?

[Learicorn]

I never stopped to think about this but now that im reading this thread i agree with everything here.

Time and time again i keep running into interceptions where people have absolutely no clue of what they're doing and i feel like if i don't carry the mission will at least take 20% longer, even higher MRs seem to have no idea how the mode works. I guess you can say that MR doesn't mean anything but the loweer ones aren't any better either.

I really don't mind people being bad at videogames, having to carry etc i don't take videogames seriously at all (and im not specially good either) but Warframe's playerbase... is on a whole other level lmao. Terrible aim most of the time, zero awareness, almost no game knowledge even with hundreds of hours of experience (you can see this in spy missions for example), incredibly inefficient/inadequate ability usage (which doesn't matter because the game doesn't punish you for this anyways). Again, i'm not complaining, just stating facts

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

11 minutes ago, Learicorn said:

I never stopped to think about this but now that im reading this thread i agree with everything here.

Time and time again i keep running into interceptions where people have absolutely no clue of what they're doing and i feel like if i don't carry the mission will at least take 20% longer, even higher MRs seem to have no idea how the mode works. I guess you can say that MR doesn't mean anything but the loweer ones aren't any better either.

I really don't mind people being bad at videogames, having to carry etc i don't take videogames seriously at all (and im not specially good either) but Warframe's playerbase... is on a whole other level lmao. Terrible aim most of the time, zero awareness, almost no game knowledge even with hundreds of hours of experience (you can see this in spy missions for example), incredibly inefficient/inadequate ability usage (which doesn't matter because the game doesn't punish you for this anyways). Again, i'm not complaining, just stating facts

When you have to play a squishy octavia with her augment just to finish interceptions during prime child hours, theres a problem and a half! 
Or when its a sargas ruk sortie and two people leave because "OMG HES BUGGED", leaving two support frames using low dps fodder weapons to clear it. 

My favorite though are the MR4s with kuva brammas on PS4 - who ive seen about five of in scarlet spear - constantly whine about the "flinching bug".

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

How hard mode and very hard mode should be accessed?: The same star chart in simulacrum where people can tweak adjust and experiment their builds using a forma build simulator. There are no rewards, no unlocks, no requirements or even time gates. This will be accessed as a reward when the whole star chart map is unlocked and all activities done by the player. There will be no alienation of players, no problem searching squads, no elitism, no preference or discrimination of players. 

That will not help the game at all since that isnt what players are looking for. Some out-of-ideas content creators may enjoy it so they can produce even more pointless videos of weapon showcases but what the players that actually play them game needs is an actual evolution of the star chart with rewards and the whole shebang.

You say there will be no alienation of the players or problems searching squads... how much didnt you actually think that comment through? What exactly is the difference in your mind between someone sitting in the Sim and not searching for a lowbie lith fissure on earth or someone sitting in a hard mode lith fissure on earth and not signing up to a lowbie lith fissure on earth? The end result is the exact same for matchmaking "issues" and possible alienation, the difference is that in situation two the guy sitting in a hard mode lith fissure will actually get rewarded while enjoying "harder" gameplay aswell. Gods forbid that he can actually have fun instead of babysitting a newbie in content that makes him fall asleep after one wave or one mission.

In neither of the two cases will the guys searching for a lowbie lith fissure see the guy doing hard mode. So it will not help matchmaking or counter "alienation" by stuffing hard mode behind a no reward Sim-deluxe version. It would however bring nothing good to the game at all since it wouldnt be actual content. Adding actual hard mode to the star map would bring us alot more usefulness since we'd actually be able to skip the extremely isolated thing that is Sim when we wanna test new builds, instead we'll be able to test them in live action scenarios that we can actually see and experience everywhere in the game after they add hard mode options.

Edited May 9, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[Gabbynaru]

Oh look, the try hards are also elitist. What a surprise! Ugh...

Who are you to dictate how other players play their game? If they wanna do ultra hard at MR0, it's their problem. If you want proper try hard teams, use recruitment chat. No one's owing  you anything in Public matchmaking.

Also, regarding the "but they don't deal any damage" comment... yeah, whose fault is it for bringing the most overpowered Mesas/Saryns/Brammirages in the mission again?

Grow up! It's a video game, not the olympics. Players should play however the heck they want without having people like you berating them cause they weren't born with the ultimate Warframe knowledge already in their heads. You were a noob once too, you know?

[zehne]

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

You were a noob once too, you know?

Exactly.

And when you're a noob you shouldn't be joining end-game content via matchmaking.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

Oh look, the try hards are also elitist. What a surprise! Ugh...

Who are you to dictate how other players play their game? If they wanna do ultra hard at MR0, it's their problem.

No, if they wanna do it solo it's their problem, which they won't. If they wanna do it with matchmaking enabled, it's suddenly everyone's problem.

  

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

If you want proper try hard teams, use recruitment chat. No one's owing  you anything in Public matchmaking.

I honestly can't understand how someone can argue for a policy that he knows will kill public matchmaking on the basis of "hurr durr it's just a game".

Edited May 9, 2020 by Krankbert

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, zehne said:

Exactly.

And when you're a noob you shouldn't be joining end-game content via matchmaking.

Just now, Krankbert said:

No, if they wanna do it solo it's their problem, which they won't. If they wanna do it with matchmaking enabled, it's suddenly everyone's problem.

Oh, excuse me, where's the best place to learn? In the sand pit with the other glue eating idiots? Or in the class room with the rocket scientists.

Yeah... grow up!

 

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

Oh, excuse me, where's the best place to learn? In the sand pit with the other glue eating idiots? Or in the class room with the rocket scientists.

Yeah... grow up!

 

No one ever learned anything from getting carried just like no kindergartener ever learned how to add by sitting in on an engineering lecture.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Krankbert

[Gabbynaru]

Just now, Krankbert said:

No one ever learned anything from getting carried.

Really? Cause back in my day I learned how to use Greedy Mag and Miragulor just by playing with people who were way better than me. Also learned about the Tonkor. So try again.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

For me I see an opportunity in Liches with the unpredictable abilities and varying limbs and heads...The game itself randomized the Tilesets, so say they added enemy units that are modular as well. Populate a Galleon-Tile set with Nox/ Lich/ Galleon captain level enemy units all sporting different appearances, abilities, weaknesses and immunities that will randomize on the next play through over and over again and you'd have an end game for Warframe in the sense it holds true to the game's random nature itself while staving off monotony.

Edited May 9, 2020 by (PS4)FriendSharkey