Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream

[Jarriaga]

On 2020-05-14 at 1:39 PM, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Anyone who thinks level 150+ start is "HARD MODE" is just plain bad at Warframe.

Or, we don't cheese the game. If you can only survive for hours by running an extremely specific set of actions that get you killed on the spot if you don't follow them as if your real-world life was on the line, then I'd argue you're the one who sucks at WF because you're not actually playing the game; you're automating it by cheesing it.

I recently saw a video from a guy who spent 10 hours in an Infested Arbitration defense as Ivara by hiding invisible in a specific corner of the map tied to the only spot enemies seemed to be spawning from on their way to the defense capsule while attacking with the Bramma using stealth multipliers and dropping pizza every minute for infinite energy/invisibility. In other words:

- He negated energy economy.

- He negated enemy swarming.

- He negated the enemy's ability to fight back.

- Negated the Arbitration drone's purpose of protecting mobs from abilities.

- Against infested, which rely on close combat.

All while performing the exact same actions in a loop, as if the game had been automated.

If that's not cheesing the hell out of the game all the way to Pluto and back then there's an inherent design flaw with the game if playing in such a way that shuts down the game is considered "being good" at it. Might as well play in god mode or with a one hit kill hack if ever made, because it's the same exact outcome.

Hopefully hard mode won't let you use pizzas. That will be a start in order to control the cheese.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Jarriaga

[zehne]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I recently saw a video from a guy who spent 10 hours in an Infested Arbitration defense as Ivara by hiding invisible in a specific corner of the map tied to the only spot enemies seemed to be spawning from on their way to the defense capsule while attacking with the Bramma using stealth multipliers and dropping pizza every minute for infinite energy/invisibility.

I've seen the same thing.

But that's not the same as going into a kuva requiem survival for >3hrs and fighting lvl 1k+ enemies and being unable to distinguish any difference between them and what they started out as.

In a solo arbitration cheesing is just a safe strategy.  That doesn't mean it is necessary.

[NoSpax]

Well, I hope, we can select the difficulty on Sorties, too.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, zehne said:

I've seen the same thing.

But that's not the same as going into a kuva requiem survival for >3hrs and fighting lvl 1k+ enemies and being unable to distinguish any difference between them and what they started out as.

In a solo arbitration cheesing is just a safe strategy.  That doesn't mean it is necessary.

While I agree, there are still some things DE can do to reduce cheese in hard mode and ultra hard mode. Preventing pizza usage or reducing the limit to no more than 10, and only allowing PUBLIC matchmaking (Can't join while in a squad) to reduce the number of ultra-efficient teams are some examples. 

That way you have to make due and can not depend on negating energy economy by having infinite energy via pizzas or joining the mission with a Trinity squad. Sure there is Arcane Energize and Hunter Adrenaline, but they are not nearly as safe to use without exposing yourself. 

This would also reduce ultra-optimized loot caves since you would not be able to coordinate with a team in hard mode unless you get lucky. In my opinion, one of, if not the biggest problem WF has with regards to challenge is just how much it rewards preparation over improvisation and adaptability. It pretty much encourages you to invalidate the mission before it even begins. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Jarriaga

[zehne]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

only allowing PUBLIC matchmaking (Can't join while in a squad) to reduce the number of ultra-efficient teams are some examples. 

...

This would also reduce ultra-optimized loot caves since you would not be able to coordinate with a team in hard mode unless you get lucky.

That in itself is a problem.  Then some people would come out with lots of super good rewards while others wouldn't.  Also there is this thing called match-making-manipulation.

For example, in other games i've played:

• Random match-making rewards bonuses on top of normal
• Specific dungeons are alot faster/better rewards
• Tank/dps/heal/support roles for groups
• So 1 person (in most demand role, tank/heals usually), solo/specific queue's for the desired dungeon
  • Simultaneously a pre-made of 4 other people queue random dungeon
    • All only selecting 1 role each

The system sees one person who can only tank and 4 people who can only do their one role in matchmaking.  So it forms them up for the specific dungeon while 4 of the 5 were 'randomed' into it.

Yes, that isn't warframe, but to some extent there will always be the possibility of gaming the system.  If it's public queue, people will just use VOIP to coordinate everyone selecting the mission at same time, and if they arn't grouped up they'll hit 'X' and try again.

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

18 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

While I agree, there are still some things DE can do to reduce cheese in hard mode and ultra hard mode. Preventing pizza usage or reducing the limit to no more than 10, and only allowing PUBLIC matchmaking (Can't join while in a squad) to reduce the number of ultra-efficient teams are some examples. 

That way you have to make due and can not depend on negating energy economy by having infinite energy via pizzas or joining the mission with a Trinity squad. Sure there is Arcane Energize and Hunter Adrenaline, but they are not nearly as safe to use without exposing yourself. 

This would also reduce ultra-optimized loot caves since you would not be able to coordinate with a team in hard mode unless you get lucky. In my opinion, one of, if not the biggest problem WF has with regards to challenge is just how much it rewards preparation over improvisation and adaptability. It pretty much encourages you to invalidate the mission before it even begins. 

Arcane Energize x4 negates pizzas. Point is, there is too much gear in this game to prevent players from being invulnerable, regardless of what they do.

[GreyZetsu]

On 2020-05-11 at 3:58 PM, 5p33dy_01 said:

you are saying the same thing as other people, "just increase level of enemies".... that is not a solution, it is a band-aid for a much greater problem

I'm sorry but i disagree i think it would be a great addition. I don't enjoy breezing through level 30 or below enemies they r just too weak. People need to stop parroting terms like band-aid and power creep. The reason why everyone is saying the same thing is because high level enemies are more challenging than level 30 or below enemies, no matter how simplistic it seems. Hard and ultra hard mode are additive to Warframe they don't take away anything they add enemies that offer a bit more resistance. Have you ever struck a level 30 enemy with a 6 forma Rivened Plague Kripath? Its so unsatisfying. I was sooo happy the first time I was killed while fighting a Kuva Lich and when i failed to kill a Demolyst on my first encounter...i felt such a rush...challenge accepted!!! As for "...what is actually needed in terms of "hard mode" its already in the game its called Archaeo-freighter,  Icefields of Riddah and Mine of Karishh. I really enjoyed that in a small dose, not many people would enjoy that as a main course because its the same reason why people hate ranking up stuff, nullifiers and scrambuses. All your idea does is turn every warframe into inferior versions of Inaros with forced weapon choices, no thanks i get enough of that from Hydron. My version of hard mode isnt mutually exclusive we can have that plus other stuff your idea could be a version of nightmare modes in hard and ultra mode.

Edited May 26, 2020 by GreyZetsu
grammar fix

[Hypernaut1]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)DOMPATRIOT said:

Man, I think we all can remember when DE said PoE was going to be scary at night, ESO was supposed to be hard, Arbitrations was targeted at the Endgame Community, Kuva Lich was supposed to be hard.

What I am trying to say is that DE has done this before, hype something with "endgame" tag, then release it (normally it is underwhelming) and after 2-3 weeks nerf the #*!% out of it so everyone can do that "hard" content.

I know it will be another Arbitrations no matter what, I have lost all hope in DE, so please stop getting hype out of nothing, we know it won't deliver as promise (or close to it)...

All it's promised to be is higher level enemies. Many of us are asking for them to add additional things to make it challenging, but in no way can it fail at being "this level, but with higher enemies"

[JackHargreav]

2 hours ago, (XB1)DOMPATRIOT said:

Man, I think we all can remember when DE said PoE was going to be scary at night, ESO was supposed to be hard, Arbitrations was targeted at the Endgame Community, Kuva Lich was supposed to be hard.

What I am trying to say is that DE has done this before, hype something with "endgame" tag, then release it (normally it is underwhelming) and after 2-3 weeks nerf the #*!% out of it so everyone can do that "hard" content.

I know it will be another Arbitrations no matter what, I have lost all hope in DE, so please stop getting hype out of nothing, we know it won't deliver as promise (or close to it)...

Why would they nerf level 100 enemies?

Enemies already been nerf with warframe revised.

[ChaoticEdge]

now the question is is DE is going fuse "Nightmare Mode" with "Hard Mode" it would be nice to able choose an option turn on or off to have hard mode + whatever nightmare mode you wanted to have on.  Also would like the increase rate drop for rare mods would be nicer if you had hard and nightmare mode on.  Imagine the possibility that finally getting that stupid mod for "High Noon" or some stance mods.

[Midas]

On 2020-05-14 at 1:55 PM, Ketec said:

As long as it doesn't come with any bonuses/loot - it's fine. You just make it harder for yourself and that's it.

nah, reward me for doing high levels like sorties 😉 Cosmetic loots if you care a lot about progression.

[Krenlik]

On 2020-05-08 at 3:04 PM, Vit0Corleone said:

I still don't get it why is this even a concern.

I mean, we're talking about the regular star chart nodes.

Is there even a reason why an experienced player would bother going to do, say, a regular extermination in Mars?

 

Levelling a new weapon/warframe?  I suppose not an issue once you get high enough MR, but at least initially it's something people would do.