Hard Mode Should Not Add Level, It Should Set Level

[DrBorris]

This is definitely a minor nitpick but I think that having hard mode only add to the base levels of missions sets a bad precedent for what hard mode is. Rather than have hard mode be a harder version of a mission it should just be a hard (no "er") version of a mission. An Earth hard mode mission should not be any easier than a Sedna hard mode mission, Hard mode should be a consistent experience across the entire star chart.

 

So, instead of having Hard mode add 50 levels (as an example, numbers not final of course) to the base level of a mission, Hard mode should instead set the base levels of all hard mode missions to 50 (or 60, or 80, or whatever DE sees fit). Again it is a pretty minor nitpick, but I think it would be better if hard mode was a consistent experience across the star chart instead of it being varying levels of harder.

[Loza03]

Well, it's a pretty common trend in such a new game plus.

There's also the possibility hard mode might have more up its sleeve, like new enemies or enemies from other sub-factions being scattered in.

[Eyn_Sof]

If i recall the stream correctly, they stated that on endless missions you can choose to up the difficulty which to me sounded like they want to make multiple difficulties in which case adding levels is better(also setting base levels across all missions is either a big undertaking or all missions will have same level)

[(NSW)C4ffy]

I prefer the way they presented it. I wouldn't want missions from Earth to be the same difficulty as Sedna. Why would you want them all to be the same?

[DrBorris]

38 minutes ago, Eyn_Sof said:

If i recall the stream correctly, they stated that on endless missions you can choose to up the difficulty which to me sounded like they want to make multiple difficulties in which case adding levels is better(also setting base levels across all missions is either a big undertaking or all missions will have same level)

But... what does this mean to what I suggested? Endless missions scale based on starting level, all I am suggesting is to have the starting level of hard mode be the same for all hard mode missions. Lich missions already kind of do this in that a level 3 Lich mission is the same level no matter where it is located.

 

13 minutes ago, (NSW)C4ffy said:

I prefer the way they presented it. I wouldn't want missions from Earth to be the same difficulty as Sedna. Why would you want them all to be the same?

Because then were right back to square one where the low level planets are... well... the low(er) level planets. It makes for an uneven playing field when selecting missions, like for if for example you get rewards for completing hard mode missions Earth will be the easiest way to farm those rewards. If DE makes it so rewards still scale with different locations then we are right back to the position where some planets will be arbitrarily worse then others. And if DE says screw it and has no recurring rewards then we have the obvious problem of "why am I doing this?" in addition to level differences having literally exist for no reason.

Hard mode seems to be intended to diversify the locations we see, if it keeps the level differences then it fails to actually do that.

Also, what do you think it adds to have there be level differences for hard mode? How does it make the game more interesting that Sedna would be a harder hard mode than Earth?

Edited May 8, 2020 by DrBorris

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Well, it's a pretty common trend in such a new game plus.

There's also the possibility hard mode might have more up its sleeve, like new enemies or enemies from other sub-factions being scattered in.

Nightwatch grineer awaken from their eternal slumber maybe corpus bounty hunter two. For the infested maybe the zealodiis 

[Tyreaus]

A question: would the rewards also be identical across the starchart? If not, then you risk mis-matching difficulty and rewards (getting Axi relics is as easy as getting Lith relics, for example). That's kind of why base starchart progresses the way it does. And if so, then you risk having a Hydron, Sedna problem but globalized, where there's that one node that's best for farming a certain thing yet, because every node gives the same rewards, there's no point farming at any of the other nodes.

[BlackCat500]

6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

A question: would the rewards also be identical across the starchart? If not, then you risk mis-matching difficulty and rewards (getting Axi relics is as easy as getting Lith relics, for example). That's kind of why base starchart progresses the way it does. And if so, then you risk having a Hydron, Sedna problem but globalized, where there's that one node that's best for farming a certain thing yet, because every node gives the same rewards, there's no point farming at any of the other nodes.

I think if hard mode fissures were a thing they'd be classified as T5 by default just like requiem ones, or perhaps even on a new T6. Rewards the same everywhere would not necessarily be bad.

Edited May 8, 2020 by BlackCat500

[Tyreaus]

2 minutes ago, BlackCat500 said:

Rewards the same everywhere would not necessarily be bad.

Of course, not necessarily, but I do see a lot of potential for things to coalesce in ways that work against the OP's general idea of having a reason to go to other nodes, or at least planets.

[(PSN)thegarada]

8 hours ago, (NSW)C4ffy said:

I prefer the way they presented it. I wouldn't want missions from Earth to be the same difficulty as Sedna. Why would you want them all to be the same?

Why would not they be the same? This is not an introductory mode for you to progress in the game. If you can do level 120-150 you should be already decked. Just cuz the first time you played the game it increased level from Earth onward, does not mean that's what it should be in other modes. And it already is not. When you do a sortie or arbitration they are all the same level. It does not even make sense for them to have different levels. If you wanna talk logically, based on where the factions locations, Earth and Kuva fortress would be Graineer highest level and Venus and Jupiter would be Corpus highest level.

[taiiat]

it's not a minor nitpick, it matters. the point of having Tiers is to let things be scaled evenly so that you can play anywhere and do anything.
adding to the Level means it's still not consistent. which is shooting yourself in the foot before you even walk out the door.

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

why... would higher Difficulty Tiers take the base Level of the Mission into account at all? that's just making things inconsistent, man.

why not make it simple and have Tier 2 be Lv50 (or 60), Tier 3 Lv100. so every Mission has the same amount of Level Scaling applied across the board. part of why this is important is so that Players can play where and what they want without having to worry about literally being unable to get the Rewards they're looking for in certain places and ergo blocking them from playing in those areas.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, (NSW)C4ffy said:

Why would you want them all to be the same?

because this is endgame-y type stuff - i already have most/all the stuff in the game, but what if i feel like playing on Tileset __ and/or Gamemode __? i want them to all scale the same so that i can play whatever i feel like playing and grind for the same few Rewards i actually want.

Edited May 9, 2020 by taiiat

[z3us32610]

11 hours ago, (NSW)C4ffy said:

I prefer the way they presented it. I wouldn't want missions from Earth to be the same difficulty as Sedna. Why would you want them all to be the same?

I agree. I like that the starchart scales the farther you spiral out.

I hope they have hard mode and ultra-hard mode Nightmare missions with new Nightmare mods. That would be pretty neat to do level 150 Nightmare missions.

[Steel_Rook]

15 hours ago, (NSW)C4ffy said:

I prefer the way they presented it. I wouldn't want missions from Earth to be the same difficulty as Sedna. Why would you want them all to be the same?

So that I have a reason to visit all of them. Right now, I tend to build for the high end of the level range. I need to be able to run missions on Sedna, Eris and Pluto, which means I have no reason to ever go back to Earth or Mars or Ceres. The levels are just too low. Having a consistent difficulty level across the entire Star Chart ensures that we can build for that and experience all the tilesets, all the mission types and all the enemies.

There's nothing wrong with the way the Star Chart progresses for a new player. That's good design. But once we get to "end game," that ought to have a consistent enemy level across all content specifically so that we're not discouraged from participating in some of it. Take The Division, for instance. Enemies are unveiled to you in order, different zones have different level ranges... Up until End Game. Once you reach End Game, everything scales to level 30, then World Tiers 1 through 5, then once again to level 40. What this means is that all missions, all zones, all activities are equally worth doing. What's more, as of a recent patch, the entire overworld can also be set to scale to a preferred difficulty, as well. Now, the entire game can be Level 40 Challenging if you want it to be.

There's no benefit to having some missions made easier than others, because either the easy ones will be too easy or the hard ones will be too hard. Giving us the ability to pick our mission level across the Star Chart would be far more desirable. Right now, my only means of doing that is to run Lich Missions since they always spawn the same level anywhere on the Star Chart. However, even Lich Missions themselves don't offer enough choice. Enemies in those missions depend on my Lich's level, they go too high (I don't like fighting 100s, I'd rather fight 80s) and they take too much work to push past 50 since it depends on the Lich showing up.

Personally, I'd let players pick their level specifically, then design an actual proper matchmaking system which allows us to matchmake directly into lobbies which meet our criteria. Set a level range, get matched into missions of those levels. Set preferred mission types, get matched into missions of those types. They're already implementing matchmaking across entire Proxima regions for Railjack, after all.

[BlackCat500]

Also, as a random suggestion: I'd love to be able to toggle hard and ultra hard mode, rather than having to choose if I want to go to

Normal

Hard

Ultra Hard

Nightmare

(Hard Nightmare

Ultra Hard Nightmare if these become a thing)

Invasion

Lich

Sortie

Syndicate

Fissure

Siphon

Alert

Event

 

Because all of these can potentially coincide on one node. Possibly more that I haven't thought of. Something about that extra scroll and click just bothers me with the current UI.

[Ineradicable]

The regular chart has progression, making them all the same difficulty removes progression.

I like the way it was presented this way its still the normal progression of earth being the easiest and void, (Kuva if kuva gets hardmode?) are the most difficult.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Seriously, why are these useless posts even allowed? 

You even acknowledge this is a minor nitpick, why even bother posting this trash?

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-05-09 at 12:07 AM, Tyreaus said:

would the rewards also be identical across the starchart? If not, then you risk mis-matching difficulty and rewards (getting Axi relics is as easy as getting Lith relics, for example)

Actually that's not relevant: players who are only interested in getting the drops as quickly and easily as possible would farm all their relics on the base-level Star Chart anyway.

So it's more accurate to say that on a flat-level Hard Mode with the same drops as the base-level versions of the Nodes, getting Lith Relics would be as demanding as getting Axi Relics... or, to put it how I'd see it, you could farm Lith Relics in the Hard Mode and still get a decent fight, instead of the mission being a walkover.

Folks who requested elevated Star Chart levels didn't ask for it because they wanted better rewards for doing those missions; they asked for it because once you've farmed decent mods, Forma'd up the weapons you like, and have at least mediocre aiming and mobility skills, the Star Chart has become too trivial to be enjoyable.

I'd prefer a flat level 50-60 or 60-70 to be the next step up from the kindergarten Star Chart... though frankly I'll take anything which lets me pick whatever Node I feel like doing and not have to fight stuff below level 50, while still having a decent chunk of it below level 70 where weapons like the Hind and the Stug are still viable.

Edited May 19, 2020 by OmegaVoid
typo.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Actually that's not relevant: players who are only interested in getting the drops as quickly and easily as possible would farm all their relics on the base-level Star Chart anyway.

That's a bit heavy-handed to say "it's not relevant" when there's a non-null portion of players who want both challenge and reward...

I mean, my entire post was basically "hey, don't forget about rewards". If I was to make a proper suggestion, I would say to make the quality of rewards (but perhaps not specific rewards, e.g. planet drops) match the difficulty, so people aren't obligated to dip into Earth nodes for their Lith relics and challenge and can go there just for someplace different. There might be the odd Hydron, but with rewards and enemy levels being largely the same across the board, it'd be comparatively rare.

But I'm getting the sense that you're wanting rewards to be no better than base starchart...correct me if I'm wrong?

[OmegaVoid]

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That's a bit heavy-handed to say "it's not relevant" when there's a non-null portion of players who want both challenge and reward...

As far as the specific case quoted of "should I get a Lith or an Axi Relic at the end of this mission" goes, if I'm after a particular Lith Relic I don't want to have to downgrade my playing experience from "fun" to "boring" to farm that Relic. Other players might feel shaving a bit off the mission time by doing it at level 5 instead of level 55 is preferable, which is fine, that'd be up to them.

Also, if I want to farm a specific Prime I can check the drop tables/wiki/Codex to discover which Nodes the necessary Relics drop from. Having different drop tables for the same Nodes at different enemy levels would be an unwelcome complication to the farming process IMO.

Example: Mars Disruption looks good for Lith C6. Unless I'm having a lazy day, I'd rather do that at level 50-60 or 65-70 than at level 15-20.

Not to mention that a Lith Relic is in no way worse than an Axi Relic anyway: a gold drop from either is worth 100 Ducats generally... and a Rhino Prime Neuroptics dropped from Lith B4 is worth ~30 Platinum in trade, while a Zephy Prime Chassis dropped from Axi O3 is worth ~2 Plat.

Right now specific things drop in specific places, and I don't think that should change with elevated levels.

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

But I'm getting the sense that you're wanting rewards to be no better than base starchart...correct me if I'm wrong?

No, no. If running Star Chart missions in "Hard Mode" increases my Credits and Endo grofit by a little bit, that'd be a fine thing. No objection to that.

Same goes for the resource drops... although there's things like Neurodes which drop in units of one; hard to see how that could be increased short of doubling the drops, which would be a bit much IMHO. Tricky one, that. But sure, morer betterer.

If Relics dropped as Exceptional rather than Intact, Flawless at the next level tier, that'd be fine by me.

But how much increase is appropriate? Someone's always going to characterise it as a "slap in the face^TM" and ask for demand more. Despite that "Hard Mode" isn't really hard if you're at all geared up (unless you deliberately pick a silly loadout, of course 😆). In my view "Hard Mode" might be better called "Experienced Mode" and "Ultra Hard" called "Expert Mode" or somesuch.

Deciding how and how much to buff the extrinsic rewards is surely a difficult decision for the devs. Elevated enemy levels make the missions more fun to play and more satisfying to complete -- a more intrinsically rewarding experience. I'd be happy to have both.

But access to a higher-level Star Chart is the one I'm impatient for.