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GKP_light

the actual state of all top tier gun build

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In green, 4 mods : base damage, multishot, chit chance, crit damage.

In red, 2 mods : 2 elemental mods (60damage - 60status, or 90damage/primed), most of the time, to create viral or corrosive. sometime, radiation.

So there is 3 more mods (including the eximus)  for customization, depending of the weapon, personal preference, ...

It can be a third elemental mod, a riven, or some other possibility (on main gun, i see ~10 other mods that can be interesting).

(and when a gun is not critic, it is not top tiers : have the 2 critical mod on a crit weapon increase more the damage than any other alternative. so no crit = less damage)  

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if only i could read that 

also ignis isnt top tier, its just used because people r lazy, the moment we get hard mode, no one will use it for it unless they have a riven 

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Unless we get reduced to only having 8 mods per weapon type (ignoring exilus for now) there will always be a best build.

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Posted (edited)
il y a 8 minutes, Asphyxxia a dit :

And what's the point of this post exactly?

to have a clear presentation the actual state of all top tier gun build.

lot of people want to change things in it, and before, it is necessary to understand what is the actual state.

 

the fact of having 4 fixe mod limit the diversity (in melee, there is 2 option to have crit chance : blood rush or sacrificial steel. so it is a bit better. same for bas damage were we can use State overload).

the fact of having the crit mod in the fixe mod make not-crit weapon bad. only having viral and corrosive as main element mean that the other composed element are not strong enough.

Edited by GKP_light
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7 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Unless we get reduced to only having 8 mods per weapon type (ignoring exilus for now) there will always be a best build.

Actually, if we only had 8 mods then there would still be a 'best build'. It would just be the only build.

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The amalgam mods were somewhat of a step in the right direction. I still barely use most of them and even when I do, they still have very similar effects on them. But as I will keep saying in every thread about this topic, even if you combine the baseline mods into every weapon so you free the mod space for something else, all you get is more powercreep and STILL the same, similar mods. Cut hornet strike, you'll get augur pact. Cut serration, you'll get some other status or crit mod.

Unless you give a very good reason for people to give up the thing that mainly drives the game - sheer power of numbers - for a good enough alternative there is no reason not to just go the same route all over again with similar mods. Who would equip ammo drum on a gun with a decent enough ammo pool? Nobody. Who would silence a gun if everyone runs around dropping figurative nukes with bramma everywhere? Nobody, outside of solo games perhaps.

 

If you had some kind of dual stat mod that would be used instead of for example serration, unless it also had +% damage you would be relatively unlikely to use it, unless it gave you something that is viable to certain frames in return. For instance, 50% increase in all elemental damages. Chroma users might be tempted at the very least, even if they end up not using it...and then it just ends up being a different type of damage again. Non-damage related things are just hard to squish into our limited mod pool the way the game plays.

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Actually I would say that most builds for primary weapons have just one "flex" slot at best. Yes, the actual customization is quite limited when aiming to the most efficient build, anything else is subject to memes or rivens.
 

52 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

also ignis isnt top tier, its just used because people r lazy, the moment we get hard mode, no one will use it for it unless they have a riven

According to who? the weapon performs great unless it is at very high levels which falls into the long endless/arbitration category that is well, a niche to be honest.

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vor 29 Minuten schrieb -AoN-CanoLathra-:

Actually, if we only had 8 mods then there would still be a 'best build'. It would just be the only build.

Technically correct.

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I few like weapons should come with random perks that if you increase a certain parameter it would create a benefit to the weapon, like a extra effect or whatever. I'm hiding now because I know people will hate it, but I would be down for something like this. At least there would be build variety. 

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il y a une heure, (PS4)Spider_Enigma a dit :

if only i could read that 

also ignis isnt top tier, its just used because people r lazy, the moment we get hard mode, no one will use it for it unless they have a riven 

I think with self buffs like rhino's roar ignis wraith will be able to kill lvl200 foes.+-ok. People are not lazy: they are pragmatic; why aim when you can have weapons that kill several things at once with no effort while you are going elsewhere ? 😄

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Or build for utility to apply status and prime enemies for Condition Overload. I rarely use my primary/secondary as the main damage dealer. Maybe I just suck at aiming. Or maybe melee just far outclasses almost every primary/secondary. 

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9 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Or build for utility to apply status and prime enemies for Condition Overload. I rarely use my primary/secondary as the main damage dealer. Maybe I just suck at aiming. Or maybe melee just far outclasses almost every primary/secondary. 

Heavy melee user here, and that is what I do with my Gaze kitgun secondary. Primes a group of enemies with as many statuses as I could stack onto it to kick Condition Overload into overdrive before I sweep in with my Gram Prime.(built with crit, bloodrush/weeping wounds, berserker, maintaining combo, and some high corrosive dmg). Primary is usually a Bramma or Opticor Vandal for ranged stuff that I cannot reach with melee easily. Otherwise, if I can run to it, it is getting SMASHED!

I just love the melee play style more. Nothing wrong with that (or other play styles for that matter).

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5 часов назад, GKP_light сказал:

So there is 3 more mods (including the eximus)  for customization, depending of the weapon, personal preference, ...

And even them are already busy with Vigilante Armaments, Hammer Shot and Vigilante Supplies.

Okay, Armaments/Hammer Shot could be replaced with Heat mod, if you are going Viral+Heat, or Hunter Munitions.

I think there is a problem in this aspect of the game right now, seriously.

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Posted (edited)

When do we actually need these top tier builds? 🤔 I can understand that they’re always appreciated for speed running’s sake, but when do we need to equip something like this just to finish a mission or wave (x5)?

I’m not quite at top-level yet, so would love some insight into what’s actually necessary just to get the job done at the higher levels

Edited by (NSW)Greybones

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

When do we actually need these top tier builds? 🤔 I can understand that they’re always appreciated for speed running’s sake, but when do we need to equip something like this just to finish a mission or wave (x5)?

I’m not quite at top-level yet, so would love some insight into what’s actually necessary just to get the job done at the higher levels

Maximization (for your needs) is often the endgame for a weapon. 
I, for example, have a 5 forma buzlok, a 4 forma ignis wraith, a 3 forma shedu, a 4 forma opticor vandal, a 3 forma twin grakata, and 4 forma dex furis. Right now, im using the shedu because its the most fun of them but all of those primaries have a purpose. Twin grakata is just really bad and the dex furis replaced it...

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I have a feeling you watched the ashisogi tenno video, about why serration and other mandatory mods should be removed. 

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I think they buffed some weapons for this reason. I didnt understand until I'd been playing for awhile, but there's no reason to use any weapon with low SC and CC. Well except for my no crit hella status Pox. But you know what I mean lol

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Current mod system is not really great when it comes to balance issue. It's balance depend on opportunity cost and the number difference are exponential.  

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Il y a 5 heures, JCistheway a dit :

I few like weapons should come with random perks that if you increase a certain parameter it would create a benefit to the weapon, like a extra effect or whatever. I'm hiding now because I know people will hate it, but I would be down for something like this. At least there would be build variety. 

some mod do this. but most of them are never use, excepte some specific to one weapon that are always use when the weapon is use. 

i think people would like to have more mod like it, but most of the time, if it increase less the DPS than an other mod, the will not use it.

 

Il y a 7 heures, BlackCat500 a dit :

The amalgam mods were somewhat of a step in the right direction. I still barely use most of them and even when I do, they still have very similar effects on them.

yes, it is not enough to be consider as different.

if they were stronger version of the, but with a condition, it would be interesting.

a bit like the acolytes mods, but strong enough to make interesting in some contexte to use the alternative mod without the base mod.

(like Blood rush compare to Sacrificial steel)

 

Il y a 6 heures, BlackCat500 a dit :

But as I will keep saying in every thread about this topic, even if you combine the baseline mods into every weapon so you free the mod space for something else, all you get is more powercreep and STILL the same, similar mods. Cut hornet strike, you'll get augur pact. Cut serration, you'll get some other status or crit mod.

it would be stupide to remove the main mod for base damage without rework/remove/nerf the other base damage mod that are balance to be good even near the main mod. 

(if you remove hornet strike, augur pact need to be reduce to +30% base damage, because actually, the mod give 90% damage when we already have 320% damage)

and for the powercreep, it depend of the part of the mod that is transferred to the base stat of the weapon. don't think that if you remove serration, but only increase the damage of 100% instead of 165%, the slot freed will not be enough to increase lot more the damage.to be as strong as before, it would need that the new mod increase the damage of 32.5%. as exemple, Vigilante Armaments when you already have Split Chamber, increas the damage of 31.5%  (without counting the set bonus). if you add a third elemental mod of 90%, it increase the damage of 32%.

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1 minute ago, GKP_light said:

it would be stupide to remove the main mod for base damage without rework/remove/nerf the other base damage mod that are balance to be good even near the main mod. 

(if you remove hornet strike, augur pact need to be reduce to +30% base damage, because actually, the mod give 90% damage when we already have 320% damage)

and for the powercreep, it depend of the part of the mod that is transferred to the base stat of the weapon. don't think that if you remove serration, but only increase the damage of 100% instead of 165%, the slot freed will not be enough to increase lot more the damage.to be as strong as before, it would need that the new mod increase the damage of 32.5%. as exemple, Vigilante Armaments when you already have Split Chamber, increas the damage of 31.5%  (without counting the set bonus). if you add a third elemental mod of 90%, it increase the damage of 32%.

Yeah, I agree that you would need to adjust accordingly, but think about it again. You're removing serration (as one example) to get rid of a mandatory mod. Suddenly, augur pact is looking mighty tasty, even if it has nerfed numbers, because it still aids the same goal that the previous mod used to help you with. Those types of stats need to be combined with something alternative or revamped entirely to stop existing altogether to make this work even remotely. But if you do that, then the next mods people will put in are status chance, crit chance and crit damage. I feel like no matter how you adjust them, people will be drawn to mods that increase damage because damage is king in the gameplay we have. There isn't an inherent need for more mobility, airtime, projectile speed or other things, usually.

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il y a 3 minutes, BlackCat500 a dit :

Yeah, I agree that you would need to adjust accordingly, but think about it again. You're removing serration (as one example) to get rid of a mandatory mod. Suddenly, augur pact is looking mighty tasty, even if it has nerfed numbers, because it still aids the same goal that the previous mod used to help you with. Those types of stats need to be combined with something alternative or revamped entirely to stop existing altogether to make this work even remotely. But if you do that, then the next mods people will put in are status chance, crit chance and crit damage. I feel like no matter how you adjust them, people will be drawn to mods that increase damage because damage is king in the gameplay we have. There isn't an inherent need for more mobility, airtime, projectile speed or other things, usually.

But it add 1 slot of variable mod, even if they also increase the dps.

And these mods increase the dps of around 30%, that is far lower than the 165% of the serration, so it would be easier to make utilitary mod usefull enough to compete with this. As exemple, on my Ignis wraith, i could sacrifice a +30% damage for the mod that increase the range of 8 metres. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)ARC_Paroe said:

Maximization (for your needs) is often the endgame for a weapon. 
I, for example, have a 5 forma buzlok, a 4 forma ignis wraith, a 3 forma shedu, a 4 forma opticor vandal, a 3 forma twin grakata, and 4 forma dex furis. Right now, im using the shedu because its the most fun of them but all of those primaries have a purpose. Twin grakata is just really bad and the dex furis replaced it...

Alright.

But when do these builds become necessary to do a game-established objective like finishing a mission? Like I said, I understand when people mod for maximisation in order to run as fast and efficiently as possible, but I’m not certain where the cutoff point is for having to equip these builds

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I think the issue is so many mandatory mods. Nothing will ever outperform raw +damage and multishot. Form there you pick crit or status, and either one takes 2-4 elementals an at least one crit mod for crits.

If they were to remove mandatory mods by building most of their damage effects into the weapon at baseline, we wouldn't have more build variation, all that would change would be which mods are the optimal build. With more slots you can almost guarantee 4 slots+ for elementals, then probably 2 crit mods, fire rate.

It doesn't get better with changes it just gets different. They obviously had the opportunity to do something like that with the melee rework when they already doubled-tripled most melee weapon damage, and they chose to leave those mods in, so I doubt we'll really see a change.

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