Has anyone considerd there is already a possible End Game mode?

[kwlingo]

I'd say the closest thing to difficulty that players wont solo much for long endurance runs is on Fortuna for Toroid farming. You see most player run solo's on mission where enemies are not able to negate much of your abilities and weapons and operator. But as enemy levels increase in Fortuna your abilities have little to no use and require for a different strategy to stay alive. Most of the time you need a team composition to stay safe an alive. This is why nuke and tank frames fail to do much if their abilities are required to stay alive.

Just a thought but having content with this difficulty would be nice in the new "Hard and Ultra Hard" Modes. Have more enemies that can negate frame abilities.

Edited May 12, 2020 by kwlingo

[Loza03]

Endgame=/= difficulty.

They're correlated, sure, but not the same thing. But difficulty doesn't cause endgame, even if endgame usually needs at least some margin of difficulty.

 

Of course, the definitions will dramatically differ, but for my money, I don't think any kind of Warframe endgame will be one which discourages the use of abilities through Nullifier spam, especially not the OV shield drones which are, in my humble opinion, the worst designed enemy in the entire game. I feel like Endgame would be a second step to fixing the reason why we 'need' Nullifier spam in the first place.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

30 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Have more enemies that can negate frame abilities.

gotta be careful with this though. Nullifiers were such a cop-out answer to warframe powers, and if you can hardly use your abilities, then what's even the point of being a warframe? might as well be playing any mediocre TPS instead. DE has to find a way to make things challenging without taking away the player's toys, or at the very least restricting the use for very brief periods of time only. 

one way they could do this is by converting CC into damage: In Borderlands 2, Maya the Siren has Phaselock: the ability to lift enemies in the air with her ability and freeze them in place - single target CC - but she cannot do this to certain units, so instead, they take an amount of damage from Phaselock. to ensure that you can't just keep spamming, it also has diminishing returns when you cast it repeatedly on the same enemy a number of times. a similar thing like this could work in Warframe, where CC frames can start controlling enemies as normal, but eventually they become less capable of CC: but instead of just making them outright useless, their CC ability does damage to the enemy instead while allowing them to still move.

this allows a CC frame to continue supporting a DPS and help kill things faster, even though the enemy isn't being held anymore. it might also encourage players to be more tactical with their powers, knowing that they can only hold an enemy so many times before the CC aspect of their power is replaced with damage instead. I know it's not an idea everyone can get behind, but it's the only one I can think of, based on how other games have handled mystical powers. making an Endgame is hard, especially when your players are already so insanely strong.

 

[o0Despair0o]

We all know that FashionFrame™ is the real endgame.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

23 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Have more enemies that can negate frame abilities.

Not really, that would just lead to frustration. It seems like there's the need for such units because the meta nuke and tank frames are much stronger than they should really be. Once those are fixed, the best way to make engaging combat is having very powerful enemies that have weaknesses or resistances to particular ways of play. No bulk immunity is needed: that restricts the player choices.

However I agree, Fortuna units are some of the best designed enemies in the game, they have a wide variety of specific interactions between the player and said enemies (but f*** the knockdowns, they come totally out of nowhere and offer no counterplay), and they offer some decent challenge with mid-level gear (of course specific builds wreck them out of existence without a thought, this is warframe after all). I don't particularly mind the nullifying fields, I admittedly dislike their concept in general, but they are incredibly easy to deal with using high RoF weapons, and I actually like that once you see them you actively swap to such a gun to effectively shut them down, every instance that promotes interactions is a win in my book, considering that some parts of the game could figuratively be played while in a vegetative state.

[Jim22]

FaSHioN fRaMe I's eNd gAmE  

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

However I agree, Fortuna units are some of the best designed enemies in the game, they have a wide variety of specific interactions between the player and said enemies (but f*** the knockdowns, they come totally out of nowhere and offer no counterplay), and they offer some decent challenge with mid-level gear (of course specific builds wreck them out of existence without a thought, this is warframe after all). I don't particularly mind the nullifying fields, I admittedly dislike their concept in general, but they are incredibly easy to deal with using high RoF weapons, and I actually like that once you see them you actively swap to such a gun to effectively shut them down, every instance that promotes interactions is a win in my book, considering that some parts of the game could figuratively be played while in a vegetative state.

I would agree that Fortuna has good enemy design with everything except how it handles nullifiers.

 

I also like Nullifiers in theory - the regular sort has strong counterplay with multiple options to deal with the problem. They're slow, they've got numerous counters, very clear conveyance (you know exactly where the nullifier field is and where the nullifier itself is) and they're generally pretty well-designed - incredibly powerful, but easy to work around. I do wish they were a little more sparsely used, but that's only possible if and when abilities stop choking out game design.

Shield drones, however, aren't any of this. They can grant the nullifier field to any enemy - even the mini-boss enemies, or extremely fast-moving ones, and are themselves quite hard to hit and locate. In other words, they negate most of the counterplay measures and conveyance in and of themselves. You don't know where the thing producing the nullifier field is (the indicator line is blue on blue, remember), it's not tied to a relatively slow and weak enemy, and thus one of the major ways to counter nullifiers (just kill them) is negated. One of the others is also missing - they don't have the projector drone.  if you're not using a high RoF weapon and focusing that one target, you are not killing the enemy until you scour the whole battlefield for a tiny black nuisance of an Osprey. Even more powerful, hard to work around. Not a good combination.

[Uan91]

Is this bait?

[bl1te]

1 час назад, kwlingo сказал:

long endurance runs is on Fortuna for Toroid farming

Aren't those buggy? Either enemies just stop spawning after some time or spawn rate is reeeaaally low.

[DrivaMain]

No to power nullification, but ability resistance on heavy units? I can cope with that. 
 

But sadly, the only way to balance this game is to turn it like Destiny, a tactical shooter where there are less enemies but they are more threatening. Warframe need to stop being a horde shooter if they want to kill the AoE meta for good.

[anarchy753]

Endgame is not simply difficulty.

Also it's not that difficult if I can take out a 0 forma Hydroid and safely farm it solo.

[Uhkretor]

23 minutes ago, Uan91 said:

Is this bait?

With this OP? Definitely.

 

But hey, at least the OP created the thread on the proper forum sub-section.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Uhkretor

[ILOHARTA]

Nullifiers are the dumbest thing in this game, they should have never been brought into the light.

Remove them and create special units with resistance to specific frame powers.

I know it'd be a lot of work, but gameplay would be 100x times more engaging

[nickelshark]

The more enemies that negate abilities the more irrelevant other frames become compared to inaros. I personally would rather have teams not compromised of 4 inaros because abilities are rendered almost pointless. It's already sorta the case with Arbitrations, as most people I come across are running tanky frames with melee or AoE weapons.

[trst]

Nullifiers are a bandaid to the core issues that our abilities are too powerful and that Corpus are made of tissue paper. But they're a necessary evil since it's unlikely at best that we'll ever see a global rebalancing of our abilities and Corpus lifespans has already been partially addressed but won't solve the problem on its own always.

More nullification effects and enemies would only be more frustrating at this point and make face-tank frames like Inaros even more desirable to some which isn't a good direction for the game. Even if abilities managed to become even more overpowered it'll then just more so punish the frames that don't have the strongest abilities or the best stats while the "good" frames will overshadow them even more. It would be better to be overpowered than to eliminate diversity since difficulty is already out the window at that point.

Personally I'd rather see enemies that are designed to counter other mechanics we have. More enemies that can counter our weapons or mobility like a corpus unit that can prevent aoe weapon effects or a infested unit that'll consume/redirect projectiles. Or a class of enemies that are designed to threaten us more while we're in the air. But not enemies that lack a satisfying method to approach or completely eliminate a method of fighting them.

Edited May 12, 2020 by trst

[Monolake]

I solo farmed toroids getting to max alert  were levels go up to ~150 just with Nekros, its not difficult for any 'endgame' and the spawns dry out quickly making it both boring and inefficient

with a team its super easy

[HoustonDragon]

3 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

We all know that FashionFrame™ is the real endgame.

Pretty fly for a space ninja guy :P

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Morning Chat is the only End Game.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

This community is so weak they cant even handle open world corpus now.....

 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Endgame=/= difficulty.

They're correlated, sure, but not the same thing. But difficulty doesn't cause endgame, even if endgame usually needs at least some margin of difficulty.

 

Of course, the definitions will dramatically differ, but for my money, I don't think any kind of Warframe endgame will be one which discourages the use of abilities through Nullifier spam, especially not the OV shield drones which are, in my humble opinion, the worst designed enemy in the entire game. I feel like Endgame would be a second step to fixing the reason why we 'need' Nullifier spam in the first place.

Maybe they want you to uhm....I don't know....use your brain and find a work around....You know....maybe try your guns...some status procs....having to work towards better mods if you're having such an issue etc. Operator etc.

How bad do you have to be to say the game "shouldn't take away my abilities, even for a second"?

Does not having your abilities when reformaing bother you too?

How about when you get knocked down and your abilities are unusable for that. 0.5 seconds you're getting up?

Or being stunned? Is that unacceptable as well?

[Loza03]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Maybe they want you to uhm....I don't know....use your brain and find a work around....You know....maybe try your guns...some status procs....having to work towards better mods if you're having such an issue etc. Operator etc.

How bad do you have to be to say the game "shouldn't take away my abilities, even for a second"?

Does not having your abilities when reformaing bother you too?

How about when you get knocked down and your abilities are unusable for that. 0.5 seconds you're getting up?

Or being stunned? Is that unacceptable as well?

Got to love trolls.

Forget to read this bit?

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I also like Nullifiers in theory - the regular sort has strong counterplay with multiple options to deal with the problem. They're slow, they've got numerous counters, very clear conveyance (you know exactly where the nullifier field is and where the nullifier itself is) and they're generally pretty well-designed - incredibly powerful, but easy to work around. I do wish they were a little more sparsely used, but that's only possible if and when abilities stop choking out game design.

I specified the Orb Vallis Nullifier shield drones for a reason.

 

Maybe come back when you have more than bile to share.

[SneakyErvin]

Never really experienced the difficulty or challenge around the toroid areas. You pick Nekros or Khora and a melee weapon plus a ranged hard hitter and collect loot. None of the enemies down there hit hard enough unless you get overwhelmed by the big units, which shouldnt really happen. The difficulty and challenge is getting enough enemies to spawn.

[kwlingo]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Never really experienced the difficulty or challenge around the toroid areas. You pick Nekros or Khora and a melee weapon plus a ranged hard hitter and collect loot. None of the enemies down there hit hard enough unless you get overwhelmed by the big units, which shouldnt really happen. The difficulty and challenge is getting enough enemies to spawn.

It's actually much easier now with shield gating. Back than you could be one shot from an enemy out of one's sight. So a Nekros or Khora solo wouldn't last too long unless you are camping where enemies are line of sight.

[kwlingo]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Maybe they want you to uhm....I don't know....use your brain and find a work around....You know....maybe try your guns...some status procs....having to work towards better mods if you're having such an issue etc. Operator etc.

How bad do you have to be to say the game "shouldn't take away my abilities, even for a second"?

Does not having your abilities when reformaing bother you too?

How about when you get knocked down and your abilities are unusable for that. 0.5 seconds you're getting up?

Or being stunned? Is that unacceptable as well?

I believe the issue is if a nuke cannot be useful in the mission but a tank is only the to tank, it's not acceptable. On the other hand when a nuke is great for the mission and a tank has no place but to stand in one spot and go afk, this is acceptable. This has always been the difference in the community.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

30 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

I believe the issue is if a nuke cannot be useful in the mission but a tank is only the to tank, it's not acceptable. On the other hand when a nuke is great for the mission and a tank has no place but to stand in one spot and go afk, this is acceptable. This has always been the difference in the community.

Sad community. Oh well. Thanks for clearing that up.