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The new speedrun Nightwave challenge is exactly what this game needed


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2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I understand the sentiment, but sentiments like this are often why we can't have nice things.

Devs release a challenging element to keep us entertained, a group of players complains that it's unfair because it isn't already in their comfort zone, and DE diminishes the element to the point to where it becomes trivial to those who enjoyed the original challenge. Arbitrations being the key example here.

For this 90-second Nightwave task, maybe try it before being so ready to call it bad design. It's doable without a speed setup. But even if it wasn't so doable, would it be so terrible? You don't need every challenge to get to Rank 30, and it wouldn't be much of an Elite task if any ol' Tenno did it accidentally, would it?

With regards to challenging elements, there is definitely a place for that. By all means add it in. But a time limited event that most likely these players will never get another opportunity to experience is not that time and place.

Why do I always see the push for higher difficulty in operations, Nightwave and the like? Why was there this massive push for "moar challenge" in Scarlet Spear and now again in NW3? These are time limited events that the difficulty curve is only serving to lock newer players out and prevent them from experiencing a once in a lifetime event. (Yes I know they said they'll re-run Scarlet Spear, but they never indicated that prior to the event leaving on PC).

You want more difficulty? Add onto the existing starchart, add a new star chart, add new permanent game modes, add in support for scaling enemy AI, by all means I'd love to see all of that stuff.

But Nightwave is supposed to be a replacement for alerts. It's supposed to drop feed newer players the resources they need such as MR0 weapons, Aura Mods, Nitain, Catalysts and Reactors. It's the place for simple missions that introduce different game mods, not the place for Railjack missions and Eidolons who have a massive quest lockout. It's not the place for Profit Taker buried behind an insurmountable rep grind.

 

That being said, a minute and a half for a capture is fine. It can be done with starting equipment pretty easily if you just learn to bullet jump.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)ARC_Paroe said:

S P E E D M E T A harshly punishes people who dont or cant subscribe to it though. I havent done it yet, but if it turns out 90 seconds requires a speedframe build and a specific mission node... thats simply bad design. 

DE really shouldnt fall into the path of exile trap. 

um full bs... i finish both the void captures with normal excal in 60 seconds
for less than that you need a speed frame(or op with a good setup 😄 )

.....................


did they really go and put in rj stuff in nightwave tho? 

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

With regards to challenging elements, there is definitely a place for that. By all means add it in. But a time limited event that most likely these players will never get another opportunity to experience is not that time and place.

Even if it were walled-off by not having the right gear (which it isn't, someone in the thread did this with Atlas and an unmodded Braton), this one task is not going to make the difference between getting to NW3 Rank 30 and losing out on it. It is a drop in the bucket you can easily fill from other tasks.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Why do I always see the push for higher difficulty in operations, Nightwave and the like? Why was there this massive push for "moar challenge" in Scarlet Spear and now again in NW3?

Because we are bored, and we want experience and progression to reflect onto usefulness in the game. Players have varying degrees to which they agree (or disagree) with this notion, but part of the appeal of progressing to a late game state is the ability to do or get things unavailable from the start of the game. I'm not sure the time-limited nature of things creates this push, it's mostly just been for any recent feature.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

You want more difficulty? Add onto the existing starchart, add a new star chart, add new permanent game modes

We already got it in Arbitrations. One life, unforgiving difficulty. Then a bunch of people complained and DE nerfed it, so there are people who enjoyed the challenge of this new permanent game mode and now find it trivial. The frustration comes from getting new elements that reward a high level of engagement, only to have them brought down to the lowest bar possible.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Nightwave is supposed to be a replacement for alerts. It's supposed to drop feed newer players the resources they need such as MR0 weapons, Aura Mods, Nitain, Catalysts and Reactors.

Alerts weren't exactly new-player friendly either. Players desperate for a taxi because they had only 20 minutes to load in the mission on Ur, two planets away from their furthest progression? Don't pretend Alerts didn't wall new players out of even more fleeting rewards than Nightwave does now. They were just node-based walls instead of feature-based ones.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

...if you just learn to bullet jump.

  And this can make a Nightwave task good. The task encourages players to expand the bread and depth of their game knowledge and progress, with rewards to mark that progression. This is probably the most basic example, since you learn to Bullet Jump about 3 minutes into Warframe's tutorial level, but still the spirit of it is there.

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The mission wasn't that hard, but we really don't need speed meta - that's the reason I don't play public any more, someone else will run ahead and complete the mission. Boring!

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8 hours ago, (PS4)ARC_Paroe said:

S P E E D M E T A harshly punishes people who dont or cant subscribe to it though. I havent done it yet, but if it turns out 90 seconds requires a speedframe build and a specific mission node... thats simply bad design. 

DE really shouldnt fall into the path of exile trap. 

it doenst tho, i did it with frost on some node on jupiter because thats the planet I was already at.

Just go fast lol.

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Better than thoss tedious acts that’s called “Do 40 Wave Defense” and “Spend 60 Minutes in Survival without capsules”. It made me feel sleepy completing those thing.

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Mixed feelings after aborting/retrying the mission a couple times thanks to being clumsy and holo-Lotus deciding to switch to kill all on some better runs... but as long as solo mission aborts don't come back to haunt us, I can live with 10 minutes spent on retrying this challenge more readily than 2-3 hours spent attempting Survival runs that host transfer and glitch out.

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Oberon with no speed mods: 53 seconds

This objective is trivial with any frame if you know the forward movement combo, 45 would've been a challenge.

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Just now, Aazhyd said:

Hepit Void with Gauss or . Easy.

 

1 minute ago, Aazhyd said:
Just now, Jaysus41 said:

Oberon with no speed mods: 53 seconds

This objective is trivial with any frame if you know the forward movement combo, 45 would've been a challenge.

I crashed into a few walls but still managed volts my fastest frame gauss blueprints not built yet

 

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for anyone struggling, I just ran Mantle, Earth, and obviously just focus on getting to target ASAP, capture animation eats a lot of time, so then you gotta really go like mad to extraction. ignore all enemies. I did it first try, in 83 seconds, which brings me to the problem of this challenge:

the tilesets, and location of the capture target are random: my Extract point was 1000m away and through multi-floor rooms. my Target could have been closer, and dear god can we PLEASE speed up the capture animation. I did it first try, but there's a good chance you can fail simply because of the tileset and the target distance; meaning you will have to keep running the mission over and over until you get a closer Target and a nearby Extraction point. not really good design, leaving it in the hands of fate. bonus screenshots of me capturing a target:

Do It Now Hurry Up GIF by Leroy Patterson

and running to extraction:

 

Nigerundayo Smokey! | Know Your Meme

 

 

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12 hours ago, (PS4)ARC_Paroe said:

S P E E D M E T A harshly punishes people who dont or cant subscribe to it though. I havent done it yet, but if it turns out 90 seconds requires a speedframe build and a specific mission node... thats simply bad design. 

DE really shouldnt fall into the path of exile trap. 

There's a capture mission on Earth that's like level 6-7, you can basically sneeze on the guy and capture him immediately. The biggest challenge is learning bullet jumping and the map layout, which is good practice for newer players anyway for future missions (especially those annoying Corpus maps)

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4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Better than thoss tedious acts that’s called “Do 40 Wave Defense” and “Spend 60 Minutes in Survival without capsules”. It made me feel sleepy completing those thing.

I agree completely. I hate goals that are too easy and just waste time.

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I think having a wide variety of challenges in games with things like Nightwave is awesome, allowing for all playstyles to have a 'thing' is really nice.

Personally, my heart simply does not beat that fast at this point and TBH, it seldom ever did ... doing things 'fast' holds no incentive for me ... personally, timers of just about any kind in my entertainment are not good entertainment for me (I make a lot of cyphers).

If I happen to be in the mood, I might give it a try, but in general, IME, doing missions 'fast' adds frustration, not enjoyment for me ... and I mostly play Volt, I use the speed boost...

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6 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Even if it were walled-off by not having the right gear (which it isn't, someone in the thread did this with Atlas and an unmodded Braton), this one task is not going to make the difference between getting to NW3 Rank 30 and losing out on it. It is a drop in the bucket you can easily fill from other tasks.

You're acting as if I'm arguing against this specific task. I'm not. I'm arguing against your suggestion that Nightwave is the place to add challenging content.

At the end I specifically said this task is fine. I did it myself in this very thread with an unranked Excalibur and Skana and told people to chill out.

But the "this one task isn't going to make or break it" argument is bullS#&$. Getting to rank 30 isn't the important thing for new players. Getting stuff with NW credits *is*, and every task that they can't accomplish makes getting those basic supplies that they need harder.

Most of those credits are hidden behind rank 30 and more and more of these "you can't do this one task" are rolling out with every new Nightwave.

As it is right now it is very difficult to get the S#&$tiest MR0 Alert weapons until after you're already quite far into the starchart and already have other amazing weapons.

6 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Because we are bored, and we want experience and progression to reflect onto usefulness in the game. Players have varying degrees to which they agree (or disagree) with this notion, but part of the appeal of progressing to a late game state is the ability to do or get things unavailable from the start of the game. I'm not sure the time-limited nature of things creates this push, it's mostly just been for any recent feature.

What does that have to do with asking for them specifically in Nightwave and Events? Time and place. By all means ask for challenge, but why are you suggesting Nightwave of all places is the place to add it?

6 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

We already got it in Arbitrations. One life, unforgiving difficulty. Then a bunch of people complained and DE nerfed it, so there are people who enjoyed the challenge of this new permanent game mode and now find it trivial. The frustration comes from getting new elements that reward a high level of engagement, only to have them brought down to the lowest bar possible.

I disagree that arbitrations were ever hard, but I'll digress. What does any of this have to do with justifying this in Nightwave of all places?

6 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Alerts weren't exactly new-player friendly either. Players desperate for a taxi because they had only 20 minutes to load in the mission on Ur, two planets away from their furthest progression? Don't pretend Alerts didn't wall new players out of even more fleeting rewards than Nightwave does now. They were just node-based walls instead of feature-based ones.

Ah the old "well A was worse so B clearly isn't broken either!". Alerts being a S#&$ty system doesn't justify replacing them in a S#&$ty manner. I'm not arguing that alerts were a good system, I'm arguing that there are issues with Nightwave that could be addressed. Because there are.

Possible solution just off the top of my head? Split the Elite rewards and the credit rewards into their own separate tracks and have the elite missions being more endgame focused tasks that contribute towards those, while boosting the value of the standard weeklies and having them feed solely into the standard credits track.

Slightly increase the cost of the Catalysts and Reactors (to compensate for the increased credit earn rate), and have both of those at a discounted rate, aura forma, stance forma, umbral forma, and lenses available with elite credits.

6 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

 And this can make a Nightwave task good. The task encourages players to expand the bread and depth of their game knowledge and progress, with rewards to mark that progression. This is probably the most basic example, since you learn to Bullet Jump about 3 minutes into Warframe's tutorial level, but still the spirit of it is there.

Yeah... I explicitly said this was a good thing...

 

Have you done the tutorial though? It never teaches you about Bullet Jumping. I've had to teach every single new player I've brought on about the parkour mechanics because even walljump and stuff get missed by most players since you have to specifically approach the route to find out about it x'D

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People are actually complaining about this simple challenge...

Even if DE added more challenges like this, it wouldn't be anything crazy. They know the average WF player isn't good at the game.

I kinda wish MR30 test was another parkour test, right now.

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

People are actually complaining about this simple challenge...

Even if DE added more challenges like this, it wouldn't be anything crazy. They know the average WF player isn't good at the game.

I kinda wish MR30 test was another parkour test, right now.

If they know that the average player isn't good at the game, surely they should pitch the challenges at the average platinum spending player, not the player who has spent what they are going to?

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Honestly it is not hard to blaze through the entire map even without a speedster.
The goal is to teach you how to prioritize, parkour and avoid damage / tank it up.

It is oddly simple anyway. Catch 1 guy, ignore the rest and blaze through the map.
Barely stopping to cast a few CC here and there.

You should have enough trigger discipline to not waste time and gun down anything at all. 
Make it a goal to get 0 kills and then see how fast you run.

 

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Did it with Excalibur with Rush mod (part of main build) in 1:21, and I suck at navigating maps quickly. This is more about navigating a map than about moving as fast as possible.

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