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Viral is too overpowered. Please fix and other Status complaints.


Gawizard
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Why is Viral having similar to faster Times to Kill than corrosive? This Status Rework was not executed right.

While we're on the status changes, why is slash the best source of dmg when there other elements that used to be powerful (gas) or just were never that great (puncture, impact, blast, magnetic, cold)

 

Edited by Gawizard
Changed the videos to be on Youtube.
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Kinda wish the other status procs were as strong as well. Corrosive should maybe be a 90% armour reduction at max and i wish gas was as strong as it used to be, scaling and dealing more damage with toxin mods rather than both since a lot of enemies have resistances to gas, or just make less enemies resist gas or make the gas clouds deal more damage with each stack. Cold could maybe freeze enemies at max stacks and magnetic could maybe stun / disable robotics with enough procs. Not sure how you’d make the other status effects as strong as viral and slash without downright changing them as a whole, but i’d be fine as long as some of them can be stronger or see more uses against enemies, but nowadays instead of debuffs, everyone wants to deal maximum damage, which is why slash, viral and heat are often used, with a good amount of corrosive and radiation as well

Edited by crimsonspartan1
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Well, we're all staying in home in fear of getting a viral proc, while don't care much about corrosives in the food we eat, about the blast of government or the magnetic waves of phones and gas? you can just move away right? so, in a way, fair enough.

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The way to look at status damage is that it has to be enough to kill the enemies. Anything over that is wasted. How you do it is a matter of numbers fire rate, status chance, stacks, damage types and shields/armor/flesh. Even if some status procs work better with some weapons on some enemies, even that doesn't really matter if you can kill them anyway.

Testing on lvl 120 heavy gunners in the simulacrum is a fool's game, all that will tell you is how your current weapon & build affects lvl 120 grineer heavy gunners. How often do you meet these guys in-game, compared to all the other enemies (and their levels)?

The new status system is way more flexible and interesting to use, and it removed some stupid sh*t that has been around for ages. And yes, viral is in a nice spot. But gas isn't bad either (despite what some are saying), not for killing enemies anyway. However, the visual cues showing the gas clouds you are procc'ing totally suck big time, and that gives gas a bad name. Generally what happens is that enemies just seem to start dropping dead for no reason, though if you check you might see some darkish miasma tendrils nearby. Where is the satisfaction in that, compared to demolishing the health bar on a single enemy with viral?

The only runt on the status block currently is magnetic. It needs a little something to make it shine, disabling enemy abilities or jamming their weapons or having some magnetic effect on enemies (like affecting armored enemies and grouping them up). And the stagger from impact makes headshots a lot harder (on headshotting weapons with a lot of impact damage), but with the amount of weapons and mods available, if you can't around that, well... But otherwise the new status system is great, and the ability to procc'ing multiple statuses from one bullet/projectile is huge.

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11 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

The way to look at status damage is that it has to be enough to kill the enemies. Anything over that is wasted. How you do it is a matter of numbers fire rate, status chance, stacks, damage types and shields/armor/flesh. Even if some status procs work better with some weapons on some enemies, even that doesn't really matter if you can kill them anyway.

Testing on lvl 120 heavy gunners in the simulacrum is a fool's game, all that will tell you is how your current weapon & build affects lvl 120 grineer heavy gunners. How often do you meet these guys in-game, compared to all the other enemies (and their levels)?

The new status system is way more flexible and interesting to use, and it removed some stupid sh*t that has been around for ages. And yes, viral is in a nice spot. But gas isn't bad either (despite what some are saying), not for killing enemies anyway. However, the visual cues showing the gas clouds you are procc'ing totally suck big time, and that gives gas a bad name. Generally what happens is that enemies just seem to start dropping dead for no reason, though if you check you might see some darkish miasma tendrils nearby. Where is the satisfaction in that, compared to demolishing the health bar on a single enemy with viral?

The only runt on the status block currently is magnetic. It needs a little something to make it shine, disabling enemy abilities or jamming their weapons or having some magnetic effect on enemies (like affecting armored enemies and grouping them up). And the stagger from impact makes headshots a lot harder (on headshotting weapons with a lot of impact damage), but with the amount of weapons and mods available, if you can't around that, well... But otherwise the new status system is great, and the ability to procc'ing multiple statuses from one bullet/projectile is huge.

well,  i tested against 2 ferrite enemies and 2 alloy enemies, these are the enemies that would put up the most resistance to regular fire, lvl 130 is pretty regular for arbies and seeing that viral just wins due to sheer raw dmg it really shows how broken viral is. As for gas, its really a joke of its former self, Gas Scaled quadratically back then and according to where the AoE hits, the cloud can land a headshot, further boosting its damage. Now its just a damage aura that does some really bad DoT, using a High base dmg weapon with a poop status would make that poop status seem okay, until you compare it with a normal or even god tier status.

As for diversity, that completely went out the window with this update, back then toxin was basically the best primary element since everything you can make from it was pretty good, now its either a really bad AoE, a Semi decent dmg type that works against 50% of grineer and the best Status proc in the game. Heat and Electric also got some meaning with this update but you primarily use them with viral because its a straight up damage boost. The entire horde element of the game revolves around viral pretty much and im proposing a change.

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1 hour ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Kinda wish the other status procs were as strong as well. Corrosive should maybe be a 90% armour reduction at max and i wish gas was as strong as it used to be, scaling and dealing more damage with toxin mods rather than both since a lot of enemies have resistances to gas, or just make less enemies resist gas or make the gas clouds deal more damage with each stack. Cold could maybe freeze enemies at max stacks and magnetic could maybe stun / disable robotics with enough procs. Not sure how you’d make the other status effects as strong as viral and slash without downright changing them as a whole, but i’d be fine as long as some of them can be stronger or see more uses against enemies, but nowadays instead of debuffs, everyone wants to deal maximum damage, which is why slash, viral and heat are often used, with a good amount of corrosive and radiation as well

Currently Gas only Scales with Base dmg as its 50% of your total dmg as Gas dmg afaik. 

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56 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

Currently Gas only Scales with Base dmg as its 50% of your total dmg as Gas dmg afaik. 

Well that’s dumb then. Should be 50% of total damage as gas then that. The gas clouds dealing more damage as well as getting bigger with each gas proc would also be neat. 

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Viral does seem a little over-tuned. Because all the proc does is amplify your damage, Viral should be positioned as the jack-of-all-trades proc.

Viral therefore ought to be out-performed by appropriate specialised procs... which right now it usually isn't.

My testing on lvl.100 Heavy Gunners and Bombards with Heat + Viral/Corrosive showed Viral to have better TtK against Bombards, while the Heavy Gunners died faster to Corrosive.

In the case of the Dera Vandal, Viral was better overall -- the innate 50% bonus to its Punture damage against Ferrite armour (Puncture only gets 15% bonus against Alloy) meant that TtK was only slightly greater for Heavy Gunners using Viral.

Contrastingly, the Phantasma was so much slower to kill the Heavy Gunners with Viral that I stuck with Corrosive. Presumably that's because its base damage is mostly Radiation, which has 75% bonus against Alloy, but no bonus against Ferrite.

Corrupted Ancients died faster to Viral than Corrosive, despite Corrosive damage having a 75% bonus against Fossilized Health, which doesn't really seem right.

Raw data, rough averages from many kills:

Level 100 Corrupted
+Heat builds
 
Dera Vandal    bodyshots:
Corrosive:    Bombard=1.5 mags    Heavy Gunner=1.5 mags    Ancient=30 shots
Viral:        Bombard=1 mag         Heavy Gunner=1.5 mags    Ancient=20 shots
 
Dera Vandal    headshots:
Corrosive:    Bombard=50 shots    Heavy Gunner=40 shots    Ancient=15 shots
Viral:        Bombard=30 shots     Heavy Gunner=45 shots    Ancient=10 shots

 

Phantasma    bodyshots:
Corrosive:    Bombard=3 mags        Heavy Gunner=3 mags     Ancient=1 mag
Viral:        Bombard=2 mags        Heavy Gunner=6 mags!!!    Ancient=1 mag
 
Phantasma    headshots:
Corrosive:    Bombard=2 mags        Heavy Gunner=2 mags    Ancient=1 mag
Viral:        Bombard=1.5 mags    Heavy Gunner=5 mags    Ancient=1 mag

 

Edited by OmegaVoid
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Personally, nerfing Viral isn't a good way to go.

buffing everything else should be priority. everything needs to be useful.

5 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Testing on lvl 120 heavy gunners in the simulacrum is a fool's game, all that will tell you is how your current weapon & build affects lvl 120 grineer heavy gunners. How often do you meet these guys in-game, compared to all the other enemies (and their levels)?

My brother and I use those two mobs for the sake of "if it can shred these guys, then it can be used in the entire star chart, including sorties and arbies no problem." method.

it's not about the unrealistic enemy levels, and more showing that the weapon is gonna be all around useful in day to day missions.

my brother's Iron staff prime just melts whatever he points it at which says a lot considering it's bounced between the weakest melee to the strongest a few times over.

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after 10 stack all procs should have physical/gameplay changer effect effect

after 10 stack damages should scale as well

 

magnetik bullet atraction

blast: blew away

gaz interaction with fire (should explode and ragdoll) ennemies

corrosive: highlight and make critical point grow up (like that exilus 7point mod i forgot the name)

 

i believe the other are fine

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11 hours ago, Gawizard said:

As for gas, its really a joke of its former self, Gas Scaled quadratically back then and according to where the AoE hits, the cloud can land a headshot, further boosting its damage. Now its just a damage aura that does some really bad DoT, using a High base dmg weapon with a poop status would make that poop status seem okay, until you compare it with a normal or even god tier status.

I agree that gas cloud DoT is on the low side, especially against higher level enemies. The increase in radius (with subsequent procs) is a nice mechanic against swarming enemies, but the 6 second duration is on the low side and the proc stacking mechanism seems to interfere with the possibility of proc'ing an additional instance. 

It's a bit unclear to me how a direct proc (me firing at a target) and an indirect proc (the resulting gas cloud proc'ing on another enemy) interacts. However, if one presumes that 10 shots (with 100% status chance) ONLY increases the radius of the proc effect, it follows that the DoT (over six seconds) is only 30% of the direct on-hit damage of the 10 shots (on a single enemy). DoT is 50% of base damage x 6 seconds, while the direct damage is 10 x base damage. If multiple instances of gas cloud only procs from other enemies being affected by gas (every instance adding another DoT, and thus multiplicate the damage), it is much more efficient to spray several enemies with gas than to "multi-hit" a single enemy. Haven't tested this in the simulacrum, but empirically it seems to be the case. In my opinion this is one of the main reasons gas is considered so "bad", since the other damage types basically are "shoot at one enemy until they drop" players intuitively use gas this way too, when they instead should spray the whole group and watch them drop (after a while). The radius increase (encompassing the whole enemy group within your gas clouds) is of course inherent to this, and this not only makes applying gas procs more difficult, it completely sucks that the in-game gas visual effects (and cues) are beyond "non-informative".

So it seems to me that DE made "gas cloud" a bit trickier overall, and this further includes using the faction multiplier (from faction damage mods) as an additional increase (it actually applies twice, first affecting the normal base damage calculation and then affecting the DoT status damage again). So putting in a Primed damage mod will actually make the DoT 20% higher than the base damage (as an example, with a weapon damage of 100 and only a Primed damage mod equipped, the DoT is actually ((100 x (1 + 55%)) x 50%) x (1 + 55%) =120.125).Now, forma'ing for the Primed mods is a [expletive], as is remembering to switch the mods depending on enemy factions, and it eats a mods slot, but it still makes sort of sense if the logic behind it is that different factions are susceptible to different gases...

Edited by Graavarg
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vor 14 Stunden schrieb Gawizard:

snip~

u got the it other way around.

viral is not overpowered, all the other important proccs were nerfed for no reason, namely gas and corrosive.

even slash was nerfed slightly, viral just received stacking benefits. slash has its merit logically, i mean slash -> bleed ? sounds logic. if the other status effects were better it wouldnt be an issue, but no...they even got nerfed.

corrosive is bad against anything but ferrite. gas is bad generally now. thats the whole issue in terms of elemental choices and viral/slash has been great for a long time so its the only remaining option.

ur basically suggesting a nerf for viral which is wrong because the others got nerfed in the first place and now u suggest to bring the working rest down to that nerfed level too ? that wont fix anything, it will just nerf everything that only works with slash/viral right now whilst retaining the issues gas and corr have. 

the only real solution is changing gas and corrosive again. the cap on corr alone is an issue due to the armount of remaining armor.

if corr could strip 95% armor after 10 stacks that would be much better than what we currently have.

gas clouds changes need to be reverted to applying tox proccs. gas itself is just horrible against anything thats not a trash enemy and vs armor generally now.

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

The new status system is way more flexible and interesting to use, and it removed some stupid sh*t that has been around for ages. And yes, viral is in a nice spot. But gas isn't bad either (despite what some are saying), not for killing enemies anyway. However, the visual cues showing the gas clouds you are procc'ing totally suck big time, and that gives gas a bad name. Generally what happens is that enemies just seem to start dropping dead for no reason, though if you check you might see some darkish miasma tendrils nearby. Where is the satisfaction in that, compared to demolishing the health bar on a single enemy with viral?

sorry, but u have to be joking, right ?

ur mixing ur personal taste with plain facts and plain fact is: corr and gas got nerfed hard for 0 reason. the other fact as a plain result of that is: viral/slash is by far the universally best combination now and even as a singular in my cases, on average viral purely outperforms corr against armor which corr should be "meta" against.

there is no "flexibility" unless u deliberately choose a bad combination just for the sake of it. the performance difference is just too big to claim that we have diversity.

all that, not because slash/viral is broken literally, but because some other elements got nerfed for no reason. what happens when u nerf the competition ? of course the remaining contender that was mostly left untouched becomes "broken" compared to the rest.

gas was so very strong before, now its a joke. corr was great also vs alloy...now its sht.

DE needs to fix this asap before ppl get used to this broken state. Corrosive needs a buff. Gas needs to apply toxin proccs again. Impact and puncture..like whatever but they still arent important at all. magnetic...well, as long as it doesnt do something outside of shields it will always remain a nieche naturally.

worth consideration: "reward" at max stacks. a strong effect on reaching max stacks on an enemy with a cooldown so it cant be spammed by 10->9->10->9.

 

Edited by Xydeth
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9 hours ago, Xydeth said:

u got the it other way around.

viral is not overpowered, all the other important proccs were nerfed for no reason, namely gas and corrosive.

even slash was nerfed slightly, viral just received stacking benefits. slash has its merit logically, i mean slash -> bleed ? sounds logic. if the other status effects were better it wouldnt be an issue, but no...they even got nerfed.

corrosive is bad against anything but ferrite. gas is bad generally now. thats the whole issue in terms of elemental choices and viral/slash has been great for a long time so its the only remaining option.

ur basically suggesting a nerf for viral which is wrong because the others got nerfed in the first place and now u suggest to bring the working rest down to that nerfed level too ? that wont fix anything, it will just nerf everything that only works with slash/viral right now whilst retaining the issues gas and corr have. 

the only real solution is changing gas and corrosive again. the cap on corr alone is an issue due to the armount of remaining armor.

if corr could strip 95% armor after 10 stacks that would be much better than what we currently have.

gas clouds changes need to be reverted to applying tox proccs. gas itself is just horrible against anything thats not a trash enemy and vs armor generally now.

sorry, but u have to be joking, right ?

ur mixing ur personal taste with plain facts and plain fact is: corr and gas got nerfed hard for 0 reason. the other fact as a plain result of that is: viral/slash is by far the universally best combination now and even as a singular in my cases, on average viral purely outperforms corr against armor which corr should be "meta" against.

there is no "flexibility" unless u deliberately choose a bad combination just for the sake of it. the performance difference is just too big to claim that we have diversity.

all that, not because slash/viral is broken literally, but because some other elements got nerfed for no reason. what happens when u nerf the competition ? of course the remaining contender that was mostly left untouched becomes "broken" compared to the rest.

gas was so very strong before, now its a joke. corr was great also vs alloy...now its sht.

DE needs to fix this asap before ppl get used to this broken state. Corrosive needs a buff. Gas needs to apply toxin proccs again. Impact and puncture..like whatever but they still arent important at all. magnetic...well, as long as it doesnt do something outside of shields it will always remain a nieche naturally.

worth consideration: "reward" at max stacks. a strong effect on reaching max stacks on an enemy with a cooldown so it cant be spammed by 10->9->10->9.

 

i agree most procs need a buff but simply saying viral is good because others got nerfed is a very obtuse way to look at things. Viral killing enemies just due to raw damage is probably the worst state this game has rn. an interesting effect Viral can do is instead of just buffing dmg to health, it should increase the effective damage types against enemy HP (half the bonus for viral). for example, a heavy gunner has cloned  flesh (weak to slash(1.35x), viral(1.75x) and heat(1.25x) dmg). the first proc should apply a 2x bonus to all incoming dmg to hp. (like old viral) and concurrent procs will increase the health modifiers of the enemy by +0.25x until +2.25x. So 10 procs on a Heavy gunner would make her take [(1.25x + 2.25x)*2] dmg from heat damage, [(1.75 + (2.25/2)) * 2] viral dmg and [(1.35+2.25)*2] dmg from slash dmg. This would also fix the Viral Slash proc damage stigma without completely rendering it useless.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Gawizard:

i agree most procs need a buff but simply saying viral is good because others got nerfed is a very obtuse way to look at things.

never said so and viral alone isnt even too strong. its the slash viral combination but also only because the rest got nerfed hard. gas is dead so thats out of competition concerning dot effects, heat is nice as a singular, so are elec, but mostly wont carry similarly.

also, if corr was better against alloy viral wouldnt stand a chance on its own. again...when one nerfs the competition.

 

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viral, corrosive, slash and heat are all in very good spots I find. some of the other statuses could use a bit of an extra maybe..at the same time, not really. it's difficult. making enemies miss more for example can be really useful when things get insanely difficult, but you don't really need it if you can melt things with other damage types...so while it's useful, it still sees rare use..but if you buffed it too much, it'd get used too much instead. Again, difficult.

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The Damage system was already skewed before procs are even taken into account. 

Since Damage 2.0, armor-class modifiers double dip. They mitigate the armor value in damage calculation on top of the multiplicative bonus that health-class modifiers get. 

In the context of Viral, Corrosive and Radiation as Anti-Grineer, Viral in pure damage is the compromise between the other two. It has a health-class modifier against all Grineer which is weaker than the armor-class modifiers the other two enjoyed. Corrosive was supposed to be anti-ferrite and Radiation was supposed to be anti-alloy.

This didn't work as intended as high status weapons with Corrosive could strip armor off completely and deal with Alloy armor better than Radiation can despite being neutral. This disparity was rectified with the nerf to Corrosive's proc by giving it a cap. Radiation ignores 75% of Alloy armor on top of a 1.75x and a 80% strip is weaker than that.

The issue now is that true damage > armor-class modifiers > capped armor strip in terms of scaling. It doesn't take long for armor scaling to render armor-class modifiers moot in the face of true damage. It's why Slash > Puncture against armor which is an oversight of IPS that never gets touched up upon unless the removal of 4xIPS priority counted. Maybe DE hoped that making Slash procs harder to get would make raw Puncture damage stay a bit more relevant?

By itself, Viral isn't too strong.

Against sortie level Grineer heavy units, Corrosive and Radiation already deal 3x more damage than Viral before any procs against the armor they are strong against. It takes some time for Viral's proc to catch up to the armor-class modifiers. In fact, before the first Viral proc, Puncture is indeed a bit stronger than Viral against Heavy Gunners (and just one Viral proc puts Puncture on raw Corrosive's level against Ferrite).

What makes Viral strong is its synergy with everything, but especially Slash, but the reason why Slash is so powerful is why pre-nerf Corrosive was meta.

ARMOR.

True damage, armor stripping and armor-class modifiers. Anything and everything that circumvents armor scaling (Slash) somehow or combos with them (Viral) will automatically be meta. 

It's true that armor scaling has been nerfed, but that doesn't change what we look for in our damage types as armor remains the biggest contributor to eHP.

Slash is king because it ignores armor scaling and will remain that way for as long as armor scales in any form.

Viral is queen because it boosts Slash.

Corrosive also used to be a king, but scaling laughs at its cap.

 

 

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for me it would be necessary to correct the entire defensive system before correcting the viral processes, in real physics some materials are consumed by ferrous bacteria in cold environments and others malleable by high temperatures, there are at least 3 types of "corrosive" behaviors for ferrous materials each performed by a certain type of mechanical factor or effect

removing an armor or percentage of it needs to be identical in all variants of elements proportional to this, exemplifying the situation, we have 4 types of armor:

*Ferrite
*Alloy
*Infested Armor
*Adaptive Sentient (correct me if I'm wrong)

so it is necessary to have 4 elements to remove armor and not just 2, the cold would be a good suggestion to freeze and break something but currently it is destined to damage corpus shields

it would be interesting to have the following variants:

*armor 1: can be removed 75% by 1 specific element (grinner)
*armor 2: can be removed 50% by 2 combined elements (corpus)
*armor 3: can be removed 75% by 1 specific element (sentient)
*armor 4: can be removed 50% by 2 elements combined (infested)
*1 2 3 and 4: can be removed 100% only by skills or mods

The problem is that not every enemy wears armor and some races like corpus and infested are compensated for this failure with factors of offensive precision or speed of movement. Corpus is extremely experienced in cold environments but have they built kinetic shields that are affected by cold? it has no logic to me.

The grineers race has two different metal armor and this is also a problem as it is part of the historical content of the game so I have no idea what the company wants to do with this mess when everything could be more organized.

Edited by Famecans
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1 hour ago, Famecans said:

we have 4 types of armor:

*Ferrite
*Alloy
*Infested Armor
*Adaptive Sentient (correct me if I'm wrong)

Actually Sentients have mostly Ferrite Armour, except Eidolons which have Alloy. Adaptation is a separate mechanic.

Also, Infested has only one Armour type unique to that faction, which is Infested Sinew; that's used only by the Hemocyte and Zealots.  Other armoured Infested (e.g. Juggernaut, Phorid, Jordas Golem, etc.) use Ferrite. The Armour donated to other infested by Swarm Mutalist MOAs is also Ferrite.

Infested Sinew, slightly confusingly, can also be a health type.

(Until recently, Ghouls had Cloned Flesh as their Armour type, but that was changed to Ferrite in update 27.2, apparently. Same for the Saturn 6 Fugitives.)

2 hours ago, Famecans said:

it would be necessary to correct the entire defensive system before correcting the viral processes

Agreed. The piecemeal approach of tweaking one Damage modifier or Status effect at a time isn't much good.

The Damage/Status system needs to be designed as an integrated whole to ensure each Damage type is a halfway-sensible pick against at least one faction on at least one type of weapon (Damage/Crit weapon vs Status-stacking weapons).

As I see the situation:

  • Any rework of the mechanics does not genuinely shake up the meta is just pointless fiddling around.
  • Any rework of the mechanics which genuinely shakes up the meta will inevitably upset many players, who are attached to their established builds/loadouts.

In my view there should for each different faction be one meta for Crit/Damage weapons, and a different meta for Status-stacking weapons. If the ideal builds change according to enemy levels, so much the better.

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On 2020-05-17 at 12:29 PM, Xydeth said:

sorry, but u have to be joking, right ?

ur mixing ur personal taste with plain facts and plain fact is: corr and gas got nerfed hard for 0 reason. the other fact as a plain result of that is: viral/slash is by far the universally best combination now and even as a singular in my cases, on average viral purely outperforms corr against armor which corr should be "meta" against.

there is no "flexibility" unless u deliberately choose a bad combination just for the sake of it. the performance difference is just too big to claim that we have diversity.

Not joking, but yes, "personal taste included".

On the other hand the idea some seems to propose, that we should be able to use "whatever damage/status" and it should be "about the same" against "anything" is inherently stupid, if that would be the case we would just need one general status.

With 14 different damages (or more if counting "tau" etc.), 400+ weapons all differing in damage composition and inherent status chance and lots of mods affecting status and even the possibility to "build-your-own" status weapons (zawa & kitguns), there simply has to be noticeable differences in how damage and status procs affect different enemies. Otherwise you end up with a cold, bland porridge of "damage/status doesn't matter".

The status change increased the options and widened the differences, which is (very) good. The OP also has a point that viral is a bit more useful & better than the others, especially in "all around use". This is further influenced by the fact that the primary primed status mod is Primed Cryo Rounds (so your choice is "cold", "viral", "blast" or "magnetic"), which combined with the stacking mechanic (for "viral") makes "viral" the logical choice for primary weapons with high enough fire rate (and status chance). However, there are lot of weapons where viral isn't a good choice, and the stacking mechanic is heavily dependent on status chance (& fire rate), and on the fact that status damage/effects applies after the base damage (so the benefit of a viral proc only kicks in on the next hit after the proc was applied).

As to gas, I use a gas-based Embolist to efficiently and easily kill groups of enemies in a Mag bubble or a Vauban vortex. Works fairly well in doorways as well, though the 6 second duration is a bit on the low side.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

On the other hand the idea some seems to propose, that we should be able to use "whatever damage/status" and it should be "about the same" against "anything" is inherently stupid, if that would be the case we would just need one general status.

ive not seen this statement yet.

the point is balance. right now there practically no reason to not use viral/slash and only use corr  (/heat) or elec if u have no better option, meaning gas and corr have gotten nerfed so hard that theres no choice to be made even against the factions they should be strong against.

viral/slash is supposed to be something not too many weapons can utilize, sadly hunter munitions happened so theres that. ignoring this though corrosive is really really bad vs. alloy. if it was better against alloy too and not just ferrite specificall at least against grineer we would have competition, ignoring that gas was also a great choice before, with the right setup even better.

now we could also scratch gas but its basically the same as corr. it doesnt offer enough anymore simply due to the fact that it doesnt procc toxin anymore. magnetic is nieche against shields specifically but it doesnt offer anything once shields are gone so even toxin purely is better against corpus than any of the combined ones that should rek corpus. even viral is fine vs corpus, add slash proccs and u dont even have to change ur build simply because gas/magnetic are too weak. basically the same as corr. its not liek viral/slash got buffed through the high heavens...slash got even nerfed a bit and viral just received stacking benefits. mostly 1 stack of viral is enough and thats basically similar to an old viral procc so we could argue its more or less the same.

its basically the opposite of melee: combo mods are still waaay too useful and easy to utilize so that some others are totally pointles, including riven stats. in terms of elements generally everything but viral/slash is just too weak due to unreasonable nerfs or poor buffs, speaking magnetic, imp and punc specifically tho i wouldnt even call imp/punc buffs...just changeroos.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

The status change increased the options and widened the differences, which is (very) good.

it did not. maybe it seems like this when u stay below lv 80 but really, low level is not which balance should be based on especially now that we FINALLY get what DE decided to call "hard mode." i tell u i will insta set everything +100lv if its possible without doing everything on +50lv beforehand and then i bet with u most ppl who defended current status will notice that there is no status balance right now, if they are honest. lets just hope that DE fixed the situation by that point.

if u like the situation, by all means, no problem...but claiming that we have diversity and balance in terms of status is just so very wrong imo.

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15 hours ago, Xydeth said:

maybe it seems like this when u stay below lv 80 but really, low level is not which balance should be based on especially now that we FINALLY get what DE decided to call "hard mode." i tell u i will insta set everything +100lv if its possible without doing everything on +50lv beforehand and then i bet with u most ppl who defended current status will notice that there is no status balance right now, if they are honest. lets just hope that DE fixed the situation by that point.

if u like the situation, by all means, no problem...but claiming that we have diversity and balance in terms of status is just so very wrong imo.

Putting one opinion up against another is inherently meaningless, opinions are just opinions and we are all entitled to our own regardless. I respect your opinion, but I have a different one.

But it does seem to me that evaluating the diversity of status effects on a very limited subset of the game (lvl 80+, 50+, 100+) is quite lacking in scope, and including a not yet seen/experienced game content change as a basis for the analysis is a bit flawed. While it is true that comparing viral vs gas on lvl 100+ grineer favors viral (in most cases), it is completely "not true" for the game as a whole.

There is also the baseline of "being able to kill enemies before they kill you" to consider, as the most relevant measure from a gaming viewpoint. As long as you can do that (kill the enemies before they kill you), and especially if you can do that effectively (using the equipment and playstyle you favor), the difference between statuses are not meaningful. A dead enemy is a dead enemy, if it died from gas, viral, slash or heat is irrelevant. As long as you can stay alive and continue the fight/mission, so is the enemy dying in 0.1, 1 or 10 seconds. It might add a layer of fun & meaningfulness to some players to do it quicker or doing more damage, but that is simply personal preference. And while there are game modes (and submodes) that facilitate enemy levels in the "multi-hundreds", it concerns a really small proportion of the playerbase (how many have ever seen a +200 lvl enemy in-game, probably less than 0.1% or even fewer?), and such gameplay is a lot more dependent on other factors than on status procs.

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

Putting one opinion up against another is inherently meaningless, opinions are just opinions and we are all entitled to our own regardless. I respect your opinion, but I have a different one.

its not an opinion when i tell u nothing competes with viral/slash right now and theres math/tests that confirm it. that has nothing to do with my opinion...i hate the current state the status is in. i hate hunter munitions. i hate how combo mods for melee make a lot of stats/mods trivial for no reason other than poor balance...hope remains since the melee rework is not finished yet. i tried to leave my opinion/taste out of this whole conversation so far to be completely honest.

when u say u like the current state then thats ur taste/opinion, but its a fact that viral/slash is so much better than the rest now or better said the rest got nerfed too much for no reason so that viral/slash is the absolutely best option left if a weapon can utilize it. different story if it cant for sure but that doesnt take away from the general fact.

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

And while there are game modes (and submodes) that facilitate enemy levels in the "multi-hundreds", it concerns a really small proportion of the playerbase (how many have ever seen a +200 lvl enemy in-game, probably less than 0.1% or even fewer?), and such gameplay is a lot more dependent on other factors than on status procs.

what works at high levels works on low levels too but that cant be said the other way around. thats why lower levels, where a sneeze can kill anything shouldnt be considered for balance. u can also go ahead and compare different builds at lv 100 already. thats also enough to see clear differences in performance and when hard mode is around the corner u cant say "only a fraction of players face these" because lv 100-200 will become more regular with hardmode. even at lv 100 u will already notice the difference in a proper build compared to a bad one. thats got nothing to do with taste and opinion. if u see one build just stomping another into the ground performance wise u can like it or not, its still a fact either way.

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