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Gawizard

Viral is too overpowered. Please fix and other Status complaints.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Graavarg:

Well, show the math then. I think numbers is a lot better ground for comparisons than words.

u can do that urself...why would i do that for u ? do u know how many weapons there are ? if u dont believe ppl then do some research on ur own instead of trying to make other people do it for u.

otherwise its ur loss.

 

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Posted (edited)

To be fair when you make a claim, it helps to back it up rather than turn around and tell people that they need to figure it out themselves. Why would they believe you if you won't prove your claims?

That being said, Viral is definitely too overpowered and should never have been buffed. OP is correct. Buffing other status up to viral level is not the way to go, as viral halves EHP of any enemy by 2x instantly, and up to 4.1x or something if you keep stacking it, making it extremely strong and better than every status by far.

Are other status effects too weak? Yes, but this doesn't mean that the overpowered option should be the standard, as then you get into power creep issues.

Edited by (NSW)Matt-S
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On 2020-05-16 at 6:53 PM, (PS4)Ragology said:

I just got a 56% magnetic kuva kohm. I wish magnetic status would set enemies up like that Trinity skill where you can melee them to regen health/energy. Self sustain would be something unique not offered by the other elements.

I wish it pulled enemies together like mags magnatize or ferrox alt fire.

Would be godly for aoe weapons then as mag procs would group enemies closer together..

 

 

Yes viral needs to be reduced to half its current effectiveness. Gas damage needs to be able to stack infinitely like heat and toxin. Corrosive needs to stack to 90-95%. Radiation should have punctures damage reduction. Blast should have impacts mercy chance. Cold should reduce armor like heat. Impact should just double damage. Puncture should totally ignore armor and shields.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

To be fair when you make a claim, it helps to back it up rather than turn around and tell people that they need to figure it out themselves. Why would they believe you if you won't prove your claims?

That being said, Viral is definitely too overpowered and should never have been buffed. OP is correct. Buffing other status up to viral level is not the way to go, as viral halves EHP of any enemy by 2x instantly, and up to 4.1x or something if you keep stacking it, making it extremely strong and better than every status by far.

Are other status effects too weak? Yes, but this doesn't mean that the overpowered option should be the standard, as then you get into power creep issues.

Revert some of the unnecessary hard nerfs on the other dmg types, and suddenly viral is no longer so dominate.

Have corrosive cap out at 90-95% armor removal instead of 80%

Let Gas scale with toxin and heat mods again. Remove the 10 stack cap on gas like the other DoT.

 

Viral only looks so strong because the above 2 took ridiculous nerfs for no reason after the rework. 

Corrosive: lost its ability to full strip (that remaining 20% armor after removal is still huge at high levels) and proc no longer has infinite duration

Gas: Lost its ability to ignore shields, lost its elemental mod scaling, lost its triple dip bonus on faction dmg mods, and no longer is able to stack past 10 procs like other DoT. 

Edited by Dragazer

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Well viral procs don't work on enemy ships, vehicles or robotic bosses, while corrosive procs do work. There's rarely any enemy that is resistant to corrosive damage, like enemies with proto shields are resistant to corrosive damage also if liches that are resistant or immune to it. With viral even the infested is resistant to it, viral mitigates the damage reduction of the infested after a proc ,and machinery is resistant to viral damage and some are immune to the proc of viral. same thing with liches that are immune to it. corrosive has only 1 health type that is resistant, while viral got 2 health types that are resistant to it.

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Enemies killed under Blast procs should blow up and deal AOE dmg based on their %health, just like [acid shells] mod does.

Surely a better option that the shi_t we have now for blast.

Agree pretty much with everything mentioned already above

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4 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Revert some of the unnecessary hard nerfs on the other dmg types, and suddenly viral is no longer so dominate.

Have corrosive cap out at 90-95% armor removal instead of 80%

Let Gas scale with toxin and heat mods again. Remove the 10 stack cap on gas like the other DoT.

 

Viral only looks so strong because the above 2 took ridiculous nerfs for no reason after the rework. 

Corrosive: lost its ability to full strip (that remaining 20% armor after removal is still huge at high levels) and proc no longer has infinite duration

Gas: Lost its ability to ignore shields, lost its elemental mod scaling, lost its triple dip bonus on faction dmg mods, and no longer is able to stack past 10 procs like other DoT. 

Viral does not "only look strong", it is strong, really strong infact. It increasing all damage (including true dmg) is what made viral HM popular. Corrosive is a good element and i agree it needs a buff and so does gas but simply stating that corrosive nerf and gas nerf made viral good is simply not true.

as for viral, it really should only affect health modifiers, i made a comment addressing this in detail on the first page.

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Posted (edited)

Viral was already good before it got buffed, so what is the harm in nerfing it back to how it was? Viral is not going to suddenly become bad or useless, and still synergises extremely well with any DoT, especially Slash.

The status rework was a mistake because it buffed what was already good and nerfed everything else. Then, further balancing everything to be as strong as the current buffed Viral would be a mistake as that's just massive power creep. I thought people wanted challenge.

Viral isn't strong because of the nerfs to others, it's strong because it's actually legitimately overpowered.

As far as I'm concerned, Corrosive should have been left untouched due to the armour changes, Gas being changed to pure Gas makes sense for consistency's sake, but not sure why they removed all the other interactions, Magnetic should be buffed far more than it is (perhaps it should strip shields entirely and bypass any shield gates), Blast should also have been left untouched and Radiation is mostly fine as it's a very good damage type. Perhaps Radiation should "chain" in the way that Electricity does though, perhaps similar to the Gas cloud as the enemy is "radiating", affecting other enemies as well.

Edited by (NSW)Matt-S
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Damage dealt by confused enemies to mobs and receive from other mobs needs to be scaled like Vauban's flechette orbs. 

Health-class modifiers and armor-class modifiers probably need to be rebalanced to take into account the relative strength of their status procs.

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Just now, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Damage dealt by confused enemies to mobs and receive from other mobs needs to be scaled like Vauban's flechette orbs. 

Health-class modifiers and armor-class modifiers probably need to be rebalanced to take into account the relative strength of their status procs.

Well with current damage scaling, Radiation either does that really well or really badly according to enemy level

lvl 170s tickle each other, lvl 2000s one shot level 3500s

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Gawizard said:

Viral does not "only look strong", it is strong, really strong infact. It increasing all damage (including true dmg) is what made viral HM popular. Corrosive is a good element and i agree it needs a buff and so does gas but simply stating that corrosive nerf and gas nerf made viral good is simply not true.

as for viral, it really should only affect health modifiers, i made a comment addressing this in detail on the first page.

10 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Viral isn't strong because of the nerfs to others, it's strong because it's actually legitimately overpowered.

As far as I'm concerned, Corrosive should have been left untouched due to the armour changes, Gas being changed to pure Gas makes sense for consistency's sake, but not sure why they removed all the other interactions, Magnetic should be buffed far more than it is (perhaps it should strip shields entirely and bypass any shield gates), Blast should also have been left untouched and Radiation is mostly fine as it's a very good damage type. Perhaps Radiation should "chain" in the way that Electricity does though, perhaps similar to the Gas cloud as the enemy is "radiating", affecting other enemies as well.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ibzbbomrep

Here is what viral vs corrosive would look like if they simply buff corrosive up to 90% armor removal.

 

rjXOrgy.png

As you can see, after 1695 armor (lvl 42 corr heavy gunner) viral would get overtaken by corr. If we add heat procs into the mix, that breakpoint would be 3391 (lvl 63 corr heavy gunner), where afterwards corr+heat will outdo viral+heat with the gap widening as you encounter more armor.

This is why I think viral nerfs are unnecessary, and that the true problem lies with DE overnerfing corrosive and gas. 

Edited by Dragazer
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4 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Perhaps Radiation should "chain" in the way that Electricity does though, perhaps similar to the Gas cloud as the enemy is "radiating", affecting other enemies as well.

It sort of does; when a confused enemy attacks the enemy next to them, that enemy retaliates. Only one has the proc, but both are attacking each other.

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I think it's pretty clear that Viral is pretty severely overtuned at the moment. Not only is it a far more generally-applicable status effect than Corrosive and Magnetic, its damage amplifier is almost always higher than either as well. Adding insult to injury, its damage type is far better as well, as it has innate bonuses against several common health types, and is countered far less hard than the other two. Clearly, there needs to be a bit of a readjustment.

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34 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Here is what viral vs corrosive would look like if they simply buff corrosive up to 90% armor removal.

[graph]

As you can see, after 1695 armor (lvl 42 corr heavy gunner) viral would get overtaken by corr. If we add heat procs into the mix, that breakpoint would be 3391 (lvl 63 corr heavy gunner), where afterwards corr+heat will outdo viral+heat.

This is why I think viral nerfs are unnecessary, and that the true problem lies with DE overnerfing corrosive and gas. 

That certainly looks more like I think it should -- the specialist Armour-stripping Status being better against Armoured targets than the generalised damage-boost Status. :thumbup:

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I wanna know why people have such a problem with viral. It not like what it does is exclusive to a single weapon or Warframe. It’s literally available to anyone who has a toxin and cold damage mod.

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22 hours ago, Dragazer said:

As you can see, after 1695 armor (lvl 42 corr heavy gunner) viral would get overtaken by corr. If we add heat procs into the mix, that breakpoint would be 3391 (lvl 63 corr heavy gunner), where afterwards corr+heat will outdo viral+heat with the gap widening as you encounter more armor.

Where is Viral+Slash?

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Il y a 3 heures, ShortCat a dit :

Where is Viral+Slash?

Nowhere, because that's what would make all the pretty graphs fall flat on their faces so people defending the current status system conveniently forget it exists 😛

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4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I wanna know why people have such a problem with viral.

It more is the utter ubiquity of it than anything else.

There are pretty much no situations other than status immunity where Viral isn't effective because up to 325% extra damage on a resource that every enemy has (health) is hard to justify passing up.

It also is effective against the two factions that have more than face value durability in shields and armor, while infested die to a stiff breeze unless there are an army of Ancients around.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-05-21 at 11:53 AM, Dragazer said:

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ibzbbomrep

Here is what viral vs corrosive would look like if they simply buff corrosive up to 90% armor removal.

 

rjXOrgy.png

As you can see, after 1695 armor (lvl 42 corr heavy gunner) viral would get overtaken by corr. If we add heat procs into the mix, that breakpoint would be 3391 (lvl 63 corr heavy gunner), where afterwards corr+heat will outdo viral+heat with the gap widening as you encounter more armor.

This is why I think viral nerfs are unnecessary, and that the true problem lies with DE overnerfing corrosive and gas. 

where is slash and is DOT additional Damage (which is also subject to reductions) included?

Edited by (PS4)ForNoPurpose
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3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Where is Viral+Slash?

13 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Nowhere, because that's what would make all the pretty graphs fall flat on their faces so people defending the current status system conveniently forget it exists 😛

Because not all weapons can be modded for viral+slash. Any weapon can mod for viral+heat or corrosive+heat.

 

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51 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Because not all weapons can be modded for viral+slash. Any weapon can mod for viral+heat or corrosive+heat.

Neet loophole to make your point.

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6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Neet loophole to make your point.

k show me how viral+slash works on kuva nukor? catchmoon? tombfinger? Phantasma? Gaze? Staticor? Ogris?

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2 hours ago, Dragazer said:

k show me how viral+slash works on kuva nukor? catchmoon? tombfinger? Phantasma? Gaze? Staticor? Ogris?

Only after you show me Corr+Heat builds on Glaxion, Quellor, Sibear or cold Kuva weapons. Just because a certain damage combination cannot be achieved on all gear, does not make it irrelevant for discussion or comparisons. If you gonna stick to your initial argument, please also remove Corr+Heat combo, since weapons I meantioned above cannot use it.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Only after you show me Corr+Heat builds on Glaxion, Quellor, Sibear or cold Kuva weapons. Just because a certain damage combination cannot be achieved on all gear, does not make it irrelevant for discussion or comparisons. If you gonna stick to your initial argument, please also remove Corr+Heat combo, since weapons I meantioned above cannot use it.

You're right my bad, I'll also remove viral+heat since some weapons cant use that combo as well like the Amprex or electric kuva weapons.

So that still leaves us with corrosive beating viral out past 1695 armor (lvl 42 CHG) if DE simply just buffed its armor removal to 90% 

Edited by Dragazer
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10 hours ago, Aldain said:

It more is the utter ubiquity of it than anything else.

There are pretty much no situations other than status immunity where Viral isn't effective because up to 325% extra damage on a resource that every enemy has (health) is hard to justify passing up.

It also is effective against the two factions that have more than face value durability in shields and armor, while infested die to a stiff breeze unless there are an army of Ancients around.

I’ve still found corrosive to give better time to kill with certain weapons.

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