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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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53 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What? How does community friction negate the fact that the problem he mentioned can only countered with a nerf? Pablo mentioned community friction for context as to why they haven't nerfed those things even though they know they should, because "better AI" won't work otherwise. You and I liking it or not bears no relation to that.

That's also why at the end I noted that it seems the path DE could take relates to making us fail missions instead of nerfing us, precisely because they know of the friction.

They complain about their endgame not being good, which is a completely different argument from not having an endgame at all (WF).

Saying in order to make AI better we would have to nerf powers but the community wouldn't like that, is not the same as saying the game is inherently broken and we need to nerf everything. He was answering a specific technical question about AI in the game and the challenges that are faced, he wasnt saying it was a necessary change, that's the point.

No destiny players have complained a great deal about power being on long timers and having no end game. Having a slightly harder nightfall mission with the same loot as the easier version or Raids that haven't been kept up to date are not end game. If you had spent any time on the forums recently or even the last year for that matter you would see these type of comments and threads reguarly...

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12 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i think this about situation awareness again. I remember the times when at 20 min in survival/defense, we had to constantly scan the spawn horizon for bombards, beeline to them, and take them out. In defense missions, we actually had to agree on who was going to take out bombards while the rest stayed near objective. I do agree they needed better indicators, but even without them, it was better to assume a rocker was on its way towards your location and react accordingly. It really wasnt that hard to make the rocket miss if you kept moving. It prevented you from sitting still and mowing down enemies with your OP weapon, abilities or CC. it was a natural limit to us just spamming powers in one place. 

to be fair, vanilla Bombards are a good example of Enemies that bring Cognitive Dissonance to the battlefield - their Missiles haven't really ever been fair simply because the Projectile will phase thorough other Enemies.
and Bombards are far from the only Enemy that can do stuff like that. Grapple Hooks also pass through Enemies, Et Cetera. Enemies being able to break any semblance of logic and, well, essentially cheat spoils some of the potential.
vanilla Bombards are better thesedays since the Missile doesn't have infinite Fuel anymore and they don't turn on a dime, but they are still fundamentally illogical to some degree and stuff like that hurts the potential for Enemies to matter enough to be interesting without making the game a slog (because nobody that's asking for the game to be Challenging is asking for the game to be a slog, we don't want that either!)

that paired with that ther's 40 Enemies in the room exacerbates that to some degree too.

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18 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Saying in order to make AI better we would have to nerf powers but the community wouldn't like that, is not the same as saying the game is inherently broken and we need to nerf everything. 

How are those statements any different when the end result is the same? The practical implications of both statements are the exact same: Better AI is meaningless when players can shut it down entirely, so nerfs would need to be made for that to work. The community not liking or not approving of that bears no relation to that statement.

18 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

He was answering a specific technical question about AI in the game and the challenges that are faced, he wasnt saying it was a necessary change, that's the point.

He explicitly said that it was a needed change in order for better Ai to work because it would be pointless otherwise. He even went as far as to cite the most powerful gaming AI in the world (StarCraft DeepMind, which can beat PRO players) to highlight how easy it would be for us to overcome it with just one button to further amplify that statement. You are the only person here who apparently thinks that's not what he meant.

 I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse at this point. Seems to me like you're trying to split hairs.

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I think the main reason the game has become like this is that DE has been too afaird to make necessary changes to the game that the vocal community doesn't like and generally always trying to please the vocal community which resulted in the game's current state and things that once had a little challenge being nerf like for example when fortuna enemies etc. 

Which is a mistake sometimes because the average person that requests for a thing to be nerfed or buffed doesn't care or think about how that change could affect the rest of the game. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Yes failure for not being able to complete something and losing said rewards is frustrating but it also brings engagement and generally making the player want to learn or not repeat what they did wrong 

With our community that choose to complain in forum over telling people dos and don'ts in chat and toxicity over something trivial? This is why I sort of think that it will make people go solo or being really toxic and blaming others (well, sortie spy public is a thing) because the risk is a bit too great to lose. When you lose that condition overload, you don't know how many drekar butcher you will butcher down to find another one so imagine losing that because of one mistake if people won't scream on the mic and throwing insults and tantrum

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War Frame is not the place for a challenge. War Frames are designed in a way that even the smarter A.I. gets hampered due to War Frame abilities. Do I seek challenge here? No. 

This is a 3D fashion beauty pageant captura scene digital Pokemon toy collection where I play with the intention of having fun socializing about anything in a conversation. Is nothing more than that. 

If I want games that challenge skill I simply stick to Sekiro, Dark Soul series, Blood Borne, Demon Souls, Ori and the Will of the Wisps, God of War IV among other games. Games like Spider Man, Horizon Zero Dawn and Batman Arkham Knight are great experiences that deserves a chance. There are plenty of full developed games that are works of art and a challenge with a great story. 

War Frame is not oriented towards high end difficulty. Asking that is the same as begging for downgrades on the war frame abilities, weapons and tenno. I don't ask for hard difficulty in here. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

War Frame is not the place for a challenge. War Frames are designed in a way that even the smarter A.I. gets hampered due to War Frame abilities. Do I seek challenge here? No. 

This is a 3D fashion beauty pageant captura scene digital Pokemon toy collection where I play with the intention of having fun socializing about anything in a conversation. Is nothing more than that. 

If I want games that challenge skill I simply stick to Sekiro, Dark Soul series, Blood Borne, Demon Souls, Ori and the Will of the Wisps, God of War IV among other games. Games like Spider Man, Horizon Zero Dawn are great experiences that deserves a chance. There are plenty of full developed games that are works of art and a challenge with a great story. 

War Frame is not oriented towards high end difficulty. Asking that is the same as begging for downgrades on the war frame abilities, weapons and tenno. I don't ask for hard difficulty in here. 

 

And challenging can't be fun? Well maybe not for you but for others it is 

Thing is, even if that challenge was optional, community would still complain 

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Just now, akrid45 said:

And challenging can't be fun? Well maybe not for you but for others it is 

That's not what my comment says. 

 

I mentioned other games for challenge. I have almost all of them. 

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15 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

As Pablo pointed out, most players here would not accept massive changes and nerfs to area nuking and CC

Who knows? The fact that most players use AoE stuff because it's most efficient doesn't necessarily mean they will abandon the game if this stuff gets nerfed. There always were salt floods on forums when nerfs happened, but people always adapted.

At the same time, the quality of new content made Warframe drop out of Steam top 10 played games.

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as I said elsewhere, there are several ways to increase the difficulty without ridding players of their immense power. One of this ways is to just  have single enemy units with incredibly high resistance (never entirely immune) to specific Warframe abilities. Put them randomized in each mission, boost that with good AI, and it's done: you have a perfect balance between challenge and fairness.

I understand that, since they are randomized, the occasional unlucky squad would meet four nearly unbeatable units against which no power would work, but hey that's life. If you truly can't beat them "bare handed" just extract and retry, you may getter a better matchup.

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20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

How are those statements any different when the end result is the same? The practical implications of both statements are the exact same: Better AI is meaningless when players can shut it down entirely, so nerfs would need to be made for that to work. The community not liking or not approving of that bears no relation to that statement.

He explicitly said that it was a needed change in order for better Ai to work because it would be pointless otherwise. He even went as far as to cite the most powerful gaming AI in the world (StarCraft DeepMind, which can beat PRO players) to highlight how easy it would be for us to overcome it with just one button to further amplify that statement. You are the only person here who apparently thinks that's not what he meant.

 I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse at this point. Seems to me like you're trying to split hairs.

It is different because because it was an answer to a generic question about AI intelligence. He did not say the current game needs to change, only that it would need to change in order for the game to be more challenging. You seem to forget that his second point highlights this wont happen because of community resistance I.e. it's not wanted by the community in general, we dont our powers, warframes to be severely restricted as Pablo is saying.

I'm not the one being obtuse here, the fact that you seem completely unwilling to understand the context of the answer and the fact that he said the required change just to improve the AI would have a severe detriment on the current player abilities highlights this...

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9 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

War Frame is not the place for a challenge. War Frames are designed in a way that even the smarter A.I. gets hampered due to War Frame abilities. Do I seek challenge here? No. 

This is a 3D fashion beauty pageant captura scene digital Pokemon toy collection where I play with the intention of having fun socializing about anything in a conversation. Is nothing more than that. 

If I want games that challenge skill I simply stick to Sekiro, Dark Soul series, Blood Borne, Demon Souls, Ori and the Will of the Wisps, God of War IV among other games. Games like Spider Man, Horizon Zero Dawn and Batman Arkham Knight are great experiences that deserves a chance. There are plenty of full developed games that are works of art and a challenge with a great story. 

War Frame is not oriented towards high end difficulty. Asking that is the same as begging for downgrades on the war frame abilities, weapons and tenno. I don't ask for hard difficulty in here. 

 

Every game is a place for challenge. Challenge, arguably, is what a game IS. A challenge is a test of skill. What is a game if not a series of tests of skill? Be that skill intellectual, physical or somewhere in between.

Now, difficulty? Different matter. Warframe doesn't have to be difficult. In fact, I would be perfectly content if Warframe were easy - just so long as it still has challenge. Consider, if you will, Kirby. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that, outside the true arena maybe, Kirby is a hard series? In fact, it's designed to be precisely the opposite. Yet, it presents challenges all the time. Timing challenges, combat challenges, puzzles, platforming. Even though they're all very easy ones, they nevertheless force the player to approach the situation differently, rethinking their approach.

Warframe doesn't. The solution to 90% of the game is just to nuke the hell out of the situation. 9% is to just facetank or invisibly walk past everything. 1% is maximising your damage buffs for big boss fights. Rarely, if ever, does the game present a situation where you have to approach it with any kind of interesting strategy. You can just roll everything without much thought.

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There are three things that may end War Frame Life for sure, three things. 

 

1. The  CACE, the non robust code where changing anything changes everything when new War Frames are introduced. 

2. The community complaining about everything. Seems like no one can have a concrete consensus here of what War Frame should be. 

3. DE should stop listening to shallow streamers, partners and people who doesn't care for the health of this game like forcing more difficulty into this power fantasy game.

 

 

Simple. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

As in, before a nerf

It was the vanilla manic on release, they never kill you in one knock and claw in the first place

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That's still the fact of the matter that they don't reward existing knowledge of the game.

Maybe knowledge about red bar = unarmored and yellow bar = unarmored?

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

If it does (and I'm fairly sure that part doesn't count as a weak spot on Auditor), it's horribly conveyed given that they covered it over with armour plating, like it's King Hippo in Punch-Out Wii.

It does, just covered with laser like covering to tell you that one is not available for hack, not armor plating and I shoot that damned robot back to send it back to its place quickly because I just love my battacor and recently zenith, just need to decide to use corrosive/heat or viral/heat

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34 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

It is different because because it was an answer to a generic question about AI intelligence. He did not say the current game needs to change, only that it would need to change in order for the game to be more challenging.

How does that contradict what was said? "Can X be done? In order for X to be done, Y would need to change" means the exact same thing as "Can X be done? No, unless Y is changed". 

34 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

You seem to forget that his second point highlights this wont happen because of community resistance I.e. it's not wanted by the community in general, we dont our powers, warframes to be severely restricted as Pablo is saying.

How, considering I posted this in the opening post?

16 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

As Pablo pointed out, most players here would not accept massive changes and nerfs to area nuking and CC, so literally, what else can they do? 

So where is the part that I am forgetting? Also, again, the community not wanting it bears no relation to his perception of what the solution to the problem is.

In other words, you are failing to acknowledge that he mentioned a hindrance towards a goal:

Jizo: The problem? The car has a flat tire. Can changing the tire fix it by itself with no other action?

Pablo: No, because you need to lift the car first. Then changing the tire can be done.

You: That's not what Pablo meant because Karen doesn't want you to lift the car. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

34 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

I'm not the one being obtuse here, the fact that you seem completely unwilling to understand the context of the answer and the fact that he said the required change just to improve the AI would have a severe detriment on the current player abilities highlights this...

Yet you seem to be the only one here who thinks that the context provided is wrong. People here are debating why they agree or don't agree with Pablo. You are the only one saying I misquoted him or misrepresented him.

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12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Every game is a place for challenge. Challenge, arguably, is what a game IS. A challenge is a test of skill. What is a game if not a series of tests of skill? Be that skill intellectual, physical or somewhere in between.

Now, difficulty? Different matter. Warframe doesn't have to be difficult. In fact, I would be perfectly content if Warframe were easy - just so long as it still has challenge. Consider, if you will, Kirby. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that, outside the true arena maybe, Kirby is a hard series? In fact, it's designed to be precisely the opposite. Yet, it presents challenges all the time. Timing challenges, combat challenges, puzzles, platforming. Even though they're all very easy ones, they nevertheless force the player to approach the situation differently, rethinking their approach.

Warframe doesn't. The solution to 90% of the game is just to nuke the hell out of the situation. 9% is to just facetank or invisibly walk past everything. 1% is maximising your damage buffs for big boss fights. Rarely, if ever, does the game present a situation where you have to approach it with any kind of interesting strategy. You can just roll everything without much thought.

 

 

The game design in War Frame is atrocious, needs a hell lot of work. Why? RNG probability gate, time gate, gear check activities and XP wall is the strategy of this business. A musou action looter grinder RNG collector game. 

 

That architecture of such business IS the GAAS F2P illness. If it is too difficult and intimidating people drops it. If is way too easy people complains. 

See? This is why I recommend classical finished GAMES. Take War Frame for what it is: a social interactive network. It works, people likes it, many invest time while they talk about their favorite sci fi pop media culture. 

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24 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Who knows? The fact that most players use AoE stuff because it's most efficient doesn't necessarily mean they will abandon the game if this stuff gets nerfed. There always were salt floods on forums when nerfs happened, but people always adapted.

At the same time, the quality of new content made Warframe drop out of Steam top 10 played games.

Most reasonable players will adapt. But those are not the ones causing so much friction that Pablo implied they kinda feel like hostages at times.

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1 minute ago, 844448 said:

It was the vanilla manic on release, they never kill you in one knock and claw in the first place

I don't know, I can only go from what I've heard - that they were extremely lethal.

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

Maybe knowledge about red bar = unarmored and yellow bar = unarmored?

No, the fact that the Bursa Weak spot is on the back. Which they're a bursa, and it's not. Or are they? Because they have a different name but the same design, which is a sin for pretty much the same reason.

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

It does, just covered with laser like covering to tell you that one is not available for hack, not armor plating and I shoot that damned robot back to send it back to its place quickly because I just love my battacor and recently zenith, just need to decide to use corrosive/heat or viral/heat

Perhaps.

Having said that however, and looking... I'm honestly questioning the idea that it looks like a weak spot to begin with.

Spoiler

5A2NC4I.jpg

Auditor

zZrHwKm.jpg

Regular Bursa.

It doesn't glow, it's not visibly weaker, in fact it's a big-old piece of armour plating. There's absolutely no reason in the world to believe that shooting a plate of armour would deal more damage.

Now, the Auditor? It does glow. And, whilst it's still clearly a piece of armour, it's also gaming shorthand for glowing things to be the weak point.

Guess what

Spoiler

Regular bursa, both using crits:kEpL4CD.jpg

8b3RbGM.jpg

Auditor, this time without crits:

aTb0NYW.jpg

2wG2m8M.jpg

The one with the glowing back doesn't have it as a weak point, and the one where it's just a flat shield of armour does.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

 

The game design in War Frame is atrocious, needs a hell lot of work. Why? RNG probability gate, time gate, gear check activities and XP wall is the strategy of this business. 

 

That architecture of such business IS the GAAS F2P illness. If it is too difficult and intimidating people drops it. If is way too easy people complains. 

See? This is why I recommend classical finished GAMES. Take War Frame for what it is: a social interactive network. It works, people likes it, many invest time while they talk about their favorite sci fi pop media culture. 

I'm well aware that the game design is broken, but I'm gonna keep doing what very little I can to make it better.

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I'm not paying much attention on this game anymore. TLoU 2, Cyer Punk 77, Ghost of Tsushima and the PS5 will be the place to put my money on.

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

I'm well aware that the game design is broken, but I'm gonna keep doing what very little I can to make it better.

 

Bruh, don't waste your time. Let this F2P GAAS game runs its course. Play other games and then get back at it from time to time if you want. If it gets better fine, if the game declines fine. Either way we don't need War Frame in our lives. It's just temporary entertainment. Save yourself from angst and disappointment. You don't need that. 

 

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I don't know, seems such views from the interview are sorta out of touch with what the game has thrown at us, and play experience. Enemies tend to have abilities which can neutralize us pretty quickly. Particularly DE's self proclaimed mini-bosses, Manics, Bursa, and Juggernauts. Many of them are also immune, resistant to powers or status, or have cumulative resistance to our control elements. Enemies also have superior numbers and level based on a completely different system than the players, which have a built in power plateau. Sentient make this even worse, as their bases are often high enough to challenge middle geared players, overwhelm starter players, and have mechanics tacked on that prevent "one shot deleting" or crowd control effects. They are also almost completely immune as a faction to debuffs while gaining greatly from levels.

Its almost as if such judgement calls are covering for not wanting to work on an admittedly complicated subject, AI development, when testing in situations where one is deliberately not in a "real world" Warframe scenario.

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Just now, Felsagger said:

I'm not paying much attention on this game anymore. TLoU 2, Cyer Punk 77, Ghost of Tsushima and the PS5 will be the place to put my money on.

 

Bruh, don't waste your time. Let this F2P GAAS game runs its course. Play other games and then get back at it from time to time if you want. If it gets better fine, if the game declines fine. Either way we don't need War Frame in our lives. It's just temporary entertainment. Save yourself from angst and disappointment. You don't need that. 

 

I still like the game, so I'm still sticking around.

I continue to fight for the game to be better because I still like it. I don't mind if you want to go on to greener pastures - that's your call - but I'm staying for my own reasons. My only request is that, if you're leaving, please don't be one of those people who constantly say things to the effect of "I don't play or enjoy this game, but for some reason I'm still sticking around the community trying to get people to leave." because that's annoying and not helpful.

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40 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

as I said elsewhere, there are several ways to increase the difficulty without ridding players of their immense power. One of this ways is to just  have single enemy units with incredibly high resistance (never entirely immune) to specific Warframe abilities. Put them randomized in each mission, boost that with good AI, and it's done: you have a perfect balance between challenge and fairness.

I understand that, since they are randomized, the occasional unlucky squad would meet four nearly unbeatable units against which no power would work, but hey that's life. If you truly can't beat them "bare handed" just extract and retry, you may getter a better matchup.

1. That enemy would just die in 1 second from over overpowered weapons so it wouldn't change anything. We already have power immune and power resist units in the game and it didn't change anything 

2. Community would still complain calling it cheap 

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7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I still like the game, so I'm still sticking around.

I continue to fight for the game to be better because I still like it. I don't mind if you want to go on to greener pastures - that's your call - but I'm staying for my own reasons. My only request is that, if you're leaving, please don't be one of those people who constantly say things to the effect of "I don't play or enjoy this game, but for some reason I'm still sticking around the community trying to get people to leave." because that's annoying and not helpful.

Fine. 

 

That's not what my comment says. Read it again. My comment is about the idea of complementing this F2P GAAS game with other experiences. This is why I look for top quality like TLo2, Cyberpunk 77, Ghost of Tsushima and a PS5.  

 

I don't spend energy on things that I can't change. I enjoy War Frame for what it is. I stopped expecting anything and the end result was that I'm enjoying this game more than just placing faith in favor or against the developers. 

Simple. 

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