844448 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 14 minutes ago, Loza03 said: I don't know, I can only go from what I've heard - that they were extremely lethal. I'd say hardly lethal unless you got clawed and under fire which are the combined cause of death most of the time 16 minutes ago, Loza03 said: No, the fact that the Bursa Weak spot is on the back. Which they're a bursa, and it's not. Or are they? Because they have a different name but the same design, which is a sin for pretty much the same reason. I'm used to a thing called variants where they're modified model of existing model. Who knows, maybe it's a modified bursa to be as tough as a bursa, but as agile as a moa with no security hole for tenno to turn them against the Corpus 19 minutes ago, Loza03 said: Perhaps. Having said that however, and looking... I'm honestly questioning the idea that it looks like a weak spot to begin with. Hide contents Auditor Regular Bursa. It doesn't glow, it's not visibly weaker, in fact it's a big-old piece of armour plating. There's absolutely no reason in the world to believe that shooting a plate of armour would deal more damage. Now, the Auditor? It does glow. And, whilst it's still clearly a piece of armour, it's also gaming shorthand for glowing things to be the weak point. Guess what Reveal hidden contents Regular bursa, both using crits: Auditor, this time without crits: The one with the glowing back doesn't have it as a weak point, and the one where it's just a flat shield of armour does. Looks like I missed something since the last time I see it's still a panel with three blue lasers covering it. Guess Nef are not cutting corners this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said: I just want it to be non-trivial. Personally this is what I'm looking for as well. It isn't about things being easy so much as it is them being trivial and co-op being pointless aside from increasing spawn counts. When a nuke frame or a Bramma user can blow up entire tilesets alone what point is there to having 3 other players? At the same time the extreme power end of the scale is forcing the content design to be either built around that higher end or ignore it and be destroyed by the higher end anyway. There isn't a middle ground that can exist right now, enemies either have to be omni-immune sponges or they are cardboard that die in seconds or get stunlocked forever. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Just now, Felsagger said: That's not what my comment says. Read it again. My comment is about the idea of complementing this F2P GAAS game with other experiences. I don't spend energy on things that I can't change. I enjoy War Frame for what it is. I stopped expecting anything and the end result was that I'm enjoying this game more than just placing faith in favor or against the developers. Simple. Cool, you do you. But either way, I'm still going to do what I want to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felsagger Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 You want more fun in this game? Then focus your attention on mission situations instead of enemy buffs or War Frame downgrades. If the situations or happenings in the game gets interesting then you have winner. Look for example the situational game of The Last of Us 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ALTBOULI Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 32 minutes ago, Jarriaga said: How does that contradict what was said? "Can X be done? In order for X to be done, Y would need to change" means the exact same thing as "Can X be done? No, unless Y is changed". How, considering I posted this in the opening post? So where is the part that I am forgetting? Also, again, the community not wanting it bears no relation to his perception of what the solution to the problem is. In other words, you are failing to acknowledge that he mentioned a hindrance towards a goal: Jizo: The problem? The car has a flat tire. Can changing the tire fix it by itself with no other action? Pablo: No, because you need to lift the car first. Then changing the tire can be done. You: That's not what Pablo meant because Karen doesn't want you to lift the car. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Yet you seem to be the only one here who thinks that the context provided is wrong. People here are debating why they agree or don't agree with Pablo. You are the only one saying I misquoted him or misrepresented him. Ok let me make it real simple for you. Player: Can x be done? Pablo: Yes but in order to do that we fundamentally need to change the game and I dont think the community will like that. In other words he is saying it's not a good idea overall, yet you seem to insist his intention or at least his opinion is everything needs to be nerfed, it isn't. Ultimalty x can be done but he doesnt think it's a good idea, that the point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Felsagger said: Take War Frame for what it is: a social interactive network. Many of us still remember when Warframe was an actual game though, it's only arrived at this point due to... improper time and project management. This is a flaw not just with the game, but with the development of the game overall, and it's worth discussing. The game could be better, should be better, if things were done differently. If we didn't discuss it, DE wouldn't be attempting all these revisions of late to rectify. Admittedly these revisions are a ripple in an ocean of problems, but they're a sign that they're at least trying. Edited May 18, 2020 by DeMonkey 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 1 minute ago, 844448 said: 'd say hardly lethal unless you got clawed and under fire which are the combined cause of death most of the time I dunno, wasn't around to personally experience it. All I know is that people say Manics used to be really deadly. 2 minutes ago, 844448 said: I'm used to a thing called variants where they're modified model of existing model. Who knows, maybe it's a modified bursa to be as tough as a bursa, but as agile as a moa with no security hole for tenno to turn them against the Corpus This isn't a lore situation. This is a game design situation. It's honestly something the game as a whole struggles with, many of its enemies share the same overall visual design, making it harder to tell which enemies are which. Having two enemies share the same design outside of colour, but behave entirely differently is a bad thing, and steps should always be taken to reduce that. 5 minutes ago, 844448 said: Looks like I missed something since the last time I see it's still a panel with three blue lasers covering it. Guess Nef are not cutting corners this time And with that, I think we've determined that Bursa's are a problem. Their visual design, their practical design, it makes it unclear what you're supposed to do when fighting them. It's poor conveyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said: Surely u understand the players u are seeing still only make up a minuscule amount of the player base? From what statistics? Does it count inactive players that have been offline for 3 months? This is a big issue that is being overlooked. It has been two years of hopping on for a week, realizing I am finished with the game and require nothing new from x update etc... If you find me 2019 or 2020 polls declaring high end geared Tenno with my progressive mind set minuscule. I still feel that it is not right to oppress a group of players completely because me and you have different opinions on what the game is supposed to be. Edited May 18, 2020 by Midas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 And the battle rages on: The casuals versus the try hards. I love the smell of internet debates in the morning. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 1 minute ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said: And the battle rages on: The casuals versus the try hards. I love the smell of internet debates in the morning. Hey man, 7 years. I’m not going down until everyone understand Warframe does not really have a definitive genre, it dynamically is changing annually! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ALTBOULI Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Midas said: From what statistics? Does it count inactive players that have been offline for 3 months? This is a big issue that is being overlooked. It has been two years of hopping on for a week, realizing I am finished with the game and require nothing new from x update etc... If you find me 2019 or 2020 polls declaring high end geared Tenno with my progressive mind set minuscule. We can talk What statistics do you have to refute otherwise? Ur argument is 'the players I spoke with' which is a minuscule amount unless you have some how spoke to the entire player base across PC and the various consoles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamonLLLL Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Midas said: Hey man, 7 years. I’m not going down until everyone understand Warframe does not really have a definitive genre, it dynamically is changing annually! It has an identity crisis, that's for sure. The last time I checked, Warframe was being compared with Destiny, The Division and Anthem, for it's grounded gunplay and sinister tone. Not some DmC-lite power trip like Dark Souls or Dynasty Warriors or whatever Edited May 18, 2020 by RamonLeeYJ 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Jarriaga said: Jizo really (Honestly) wanted an answer considering he had recently made a video about AI improvements and AI counter-measures against camping. I would not say that. It's more like people don't really think of ramifications because people tend to miss the forest for the trees. It's the same argument as when people ask to adjust weapon stats instead of nerfing riven disposition. They don't really think that their popular weapon would now get nerfed instead of its riven, or at least they don't want to think about it. Those are good points. But still, wouldnt players with longstanding experience with the game see the forest after all this time no matter the trees? I can get it that a newer player may not really see it, since they transition into the AoE and speed issues overtime and just assumes it is the mobs that lag behind with poor A.I. But with extensive experience of the game and its system it quickly becomes clear than no A.I will help when we have access to the things we have. Even when I think of things like adding more special attacks I quickly come to the point where I go "it is as pointless as anything else" since we are too fast and most often constantly moving, so even those special attacks would never really have a chance to hit us. At the point we are at in the game along with the recent nerfs to A.I behavior (lower chance to hit, slower tracking etc.) even things like movement speed stats turn into power creep for our survival. But yeah, I do see your points and they are reasonable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Midas said: Hey man, 7 years. I’m not going down until everyone understand Warframe does not really have a definitive genre, it dynamically is changing annually! I agree. Warframe sucked me in because of this. It broke like every game mold I was used to being in. Edited May 18, 2020 by (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu Typo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said: And the battle rages on: The casuals versus the try hards. I love the smell of internet debates in the morning. Meanwhile the people who want something in the middle get ignored... It's not easy being in the middle of things. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaero Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Jarriaga said: Most reasonable players will adapt. But those are not the ones causing so much friction that Pablo implied they kinda feel like hostages at times. I thought showing his childhood photo was a legit move to keep players from being mad about nerfs. Edited May 18, 2020 by Xaero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 IMO, warframe isn't a game where you come to use your brain, it falls in what I call 'mindless fun' category of games. While I wouldn't say no to some slightly better AI (especially on spectres and pets etc), trying to turn warframe into a challenge, which in most cases will just find a new meta and be cheesed anyway, just isn't really right for this game. If you want a challenge in a game there are other options out there, let warframe be the 'power fantasy' it's designed around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844448 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Loza03 said: This isn't a lore situation. This is a game design situation. It's honestly something the game as a whole struggles with, many of its enemies share the same overall visual design, making it harder to tell which enemies are which. Having two enemies share the same design outside of colour, but behave entirely differently is a bad thing, and steps should always be taken to reduce that. I'm used to it where games I play are always using this kind of design so I'm not thinking it's a bad thing, more like how fast you can differentiate units through a single glance and I can differentiate bombard and napalm from a glance when flying so I'm okay with it considering people say warframe is a fast paced ninja game 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted May 18, 2020 Author Share Posted May 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said: Ok let me make it real simple for you. Player: Can x be done? Pablo: Yes but in order to do that we fundamentally need to change the game and I dont think the community will like that. In other words he is saying it's not a good idea overall, yet you seem to insist his intention or at least his opinion is everything needs to be nerfed, it isn't. Ultimalty x can be done but he doesnt think it's a good idea, that the point So we're back to square one: The community not liking the solution does not negate that he expressed that it was the solution. Since I acknowledged that he said that this is not viable because of community backlash in the opening post, I am not sure what you are trying to argue here. If you are arguing that "I dont think the community will like that." needs to be added, the opposite is true: You are in fact making his point by highlighting that the hindrance is the community, not that he thinks that such a change would be bad on its own. We're going in circles, and you're even arguing for the same thing and amplifying what he said without even noticing because of your rejection to the concept of nerfs in principle. Otherwise, the implication there is that nothing is a solution if the community doesn't like it, which I find to be an extremely entitled mindset that holds the game hostage against what the devs would like to do. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watsof Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Wanna know what a terrifying enemy looks like? One word: Spectralyst I never wanna live the experience of a Gauss Mach Rushing me ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Just now, 844448 said: I'm used to it where games I play are always using this kind of design so I'm not thinking it's a bad thing, more like how fast you can differentiate units through a single glance and I can differentiate bombard and napalm from a glance when flying so I'm okay with it considering people say warframe is a fast paced ninja game Just because you're used to it doesn't make it a good thing. In fact, the fact that Warframe is fast-paced makes it more important because you have less time to dedicate to each individual enemy, and thus the visual design and cues becomes even more important. Consider: TF2, a game that stands as a pinnacle of this, since you can tell what is happening in this teeny-tiny picture if you have even a little experience, because the visual design is so clear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaero Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, LSG501 said: IMO, warframe isn't a game where you come to use your brain, it falls in what I call 'mindless fun' category of games. While I wouldn't say no to some slightly better AI (especially on spectres and pets etc), trying to turn warframe into a challenge, which in most cases will just find a new meta and be cheesed anyway, just isn't really right for this game. If you want a challenge in a game there are other options out there, let warframe be the 'power fantasy' it's designed around. Would disallowing AoE stuff to go through walls and obstacles take anything away from this power fantasy? I don't think so. It would greatly benefit the gameplay though. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844448 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Loza03 said: Just because you're used to it doesn't make it a good thing. In fact, the fact that Warframe is fast-paced makes it more important because you have less time to dedicate to each individual enemy, and thus the visual design and cues becomes even more important. Consider: TF2, a game that stands as a pinnacle of this, since you can tell what is happening in this teeny-tiny picture if you have even a little experience, because the visual design is so clear. I understand, and the question is, how do you make it so the visual design to be far clearer to those who are not used to it? I don't have any idea so far so perhaps you have an idea or two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrimsonlegendx Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 I say do it, rip the band-aid off. I'd love to actually play this game instead of sprint though levels nuking everything without resistance. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted May 18, 2020 Author Share Posted May 18, 2020 1 hour ago, LascarCapable said: Gonna react to that one quote I saw in the OP as a suggestion to increase the difficulty of the game : All of this is basically countered by massive nuking. You don't care about targeting a specific enemy when everything is already dead, unless you give it a nullifier bubble. Back to the drawing board I'm afraid. 😞 Aside from that, what can I say ? I've been saying forever that uncontrolled nuking is a massive problem if people want balance and challenge. Looks like mass CC is a problem as well, which is not surprising. In the end, I guess what will matter is the biggest demographic. Agreed. Those enemies would need some protection. I was thinking of them as mini-bosses immune to abilities like arbitration drones, but that would still fall in the category of "forced nullifier", sadly. Functional? Yes, but may not be well-received for the same reasons even if they are exclusive to hard mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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