Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Felsagger]

20 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Many of us still remember when Warframe was an actual game though, it's only arrived at this point due to... improper time and project management. This is a flaw not just with the game, but with the development of the game overall, and it's worth discussing. The game could be better, should be better, if things were done differently.

If we didn't discuss it, DE wouldn't be attempting all these revisions of late to rectify. Admittedly these revisions are a ripple in an ocean of problems, but they're a sign that they're at least trying.

 

Then the architecture of this discussion should be on the tactics of working a situational game. 

 

If we base on balancing, increasing or decreasing, downgrading or upgrading we head back to the same saddle point. Of course this begs for a conversation but the way is heading doesn't provide productive dividends. It just repeat the old chain of consequences again. 

How we get out of the loop? War Frame mission architecture where unexpected things happens should be the road, IMO. Keep the same enemies, the same assets but provoke unexpected changes and hence challenge emerges because the game asks the player greater awareness of the changing situation. 

Variables or parameters to work with ( Increase awareness of the player, performance of certain tasks instead of the repetition of one task, increase in multi tasking and happenings in the level like actuators or triggers like doors, gates or any device that changes the level structure) 

 

[Jarriaga]

19 minutes ago, Xaero said:

I thought showing his childhood photo was a legit move to keep players from being mad about nerfs.

At this stage, I'm starting to think he meant it.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

6 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Would disallowing AoE stuff to go through walls and obstacles take anything away from this power fantasy? I don't think so. It would greatly benefit the gameplay though.

I played another game where we had "hallway races". This is essentially where all the try hard dps rush ahead of the group to be the first person to hit that fresh enemy spawn, therefore seeing the first big numbers from their abilities and being the first to kill the adds.

People do this on warframe too, and will only be exacerbated by no LOS issues. 

Speed runs would increase because people would just rush down the hallway to spam 1 and 4 instead of doing it from where they are. Just my opinion though. It wouldn't bother me if implemented.

[Midas]

12 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Would disallowing AoE stuff to go through walls and obstacles take anything away from this power fantasy? I don't think so. It would greatly benefit the gameplay though.

Before we can change enemies, we must first change how we function. We are farming monsters right now. Lets develop a more interdependent approach (We depend on each other's abilities in synergy for success! Also missions are reformed to not be grind oriented but teamwork oriented + dynamic!).

Edited May 18, 2020 by Midas

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

People do this on warframe too, and will only be exacerbated by no LOS issues. 

Wait, I don't get it. Do you disagree with me or what 😄

No LoS is how it is currently.

[Thorham]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Why, on this good green earth, should I ever bother jumping around, dodging, generally playing an action game, when it is objectively better (rewarding more loot in less time) to stand perfectly still, repetitively activating the same ability that kills everything for me? Or slowly walking around heashotting enemies that can't move to prevent me from doing so? Why on earth should I ever play Warframe?

Because it's fun and you play games for fun and not as a second job that has to be performed as efficiently as possible perhaps?

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

7 minutes ago, Midas said:

Before we can change enemies, we must first change how we function. We are farming monsters right now. Lets develop a more interdependent approach (We depend on each other's abilities in synergy for success! Also missions are reformed to not be grind oriented but teamwork oriented + dynamic!).

How specifically? And fyi some people dont want to or actually cant depend on a group in all settings. Some people are really slow and hold groups back in some cases as well.

It sounds nice without any actually detail behind it just sayin.

 

3 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Wait, I don't get it. Do you disagree with me or what 😄

No LoS is how it is currently.

I meant if LoS was implemented, people would use enemy radar and sprint from red blob to red blob as fast as possible.

[Felsagger]

38 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Cool, you do you.

But either way, I'm still going to do what I want to do.

Bruh, no one stops ya. 

 

Words on a box doesn't stop anyone. Is your free will after all. 

The state of affairs on the current situation made me halt my money on this game for almost two years and wait what happens. I don't get burned out of War Frame and at the same time I get busy with TLoU2, Cyber Punk 77, Ghost of Tsushima and the PS5. This doesn't rules out War Frame at all. I get more patient waiting without having griefs. I get fun out of every game. That is the whole idea. 

Yes the discussion should be carried on but I don't waste my energies expecting changes. I don't place faith in this game either. If favorable updates happens, I'll see what's up. 

[LascarCapable]

4 minutes ago, Thorham said:

Because it's fun and you play games for fun and not as a second job that has to be performed as efficiently as possible perhaps?

Yet there is no incentive to do that when you're playing a warframe that has constantly 90% DR constantly, even when running sortie level content. Better facetank and focus on aiming.

That's very likely what the person you quoted meant. Of course this likely does not apply when you run a warframe that isn't blessed with high DR.

[Xaero]

Just now, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

I meant if LoS was implemented, people would use enemy radar and sprint from red blob to red blob as fast as possible.

Well yeah, that's already better. They will at least have to move around instead of standing in one spot.

[Midas]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

How specifically?

statistical changes to buffs and debuffs really, that should solve a lot. Adjustments of AoE frame range as well for a more radical approach. I understand many cannot depend on others. Hmmm, there are frames in the game that actually preform A LOT better alone, they could be used to make solo content more bearable, in fact they do.

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, 844448 said:

I understand, and the question is, how do you make it so the visual design to be far clearer to those who are not used to it? I don't have any idea so far so perhaps you have an idea or two?

Ok, since we're on the topic of TF2, lets use that as the basis:

 

Spoiler

These are the silhouettes of the nine mercenaries, holding their primary weapons. You have the ability to identify which class is without any colours or details. Medic has the long coat giving him the shortest 'legs', Engie has the long looping cable, Scout is visibly the shortest because he's hunched over, and all that. That's one way Warframe fails.

Spoiler

 

The Regular Lancer, meanwhile, has the same model as the Bombard - the only difference in these pictures is the slightly different angle of view and the weapon, which is held in the same way. In game, the only visual distinction is size (which, when you're leaping about and constantly changing angle of view, can get very muddy) and colour, which is helpful, but very much isn't enough on its own.

Speaking of colour and weapons, lets also consider how we identify weapons (and thus, capabilities) - you can identify what weapon a character in TF2 is using with just a little more visual effort since your eye is always drawn to it. Consider this:

Spoiler

Notice how the Pyro's lower body is all mucky, dirty and brown, but the chest area is much brighter. And where does he hold his weapon? The chest. Your eye is drawn to his upper body and that's where the important info is. Pyro's weapon is also to the side, and is visibly large, making it very easy to identify.

Warframe kinda does this? The Lancer is darker near the bottom, and his weapon is a different colour to his armour. However, not only does it have the same gradiant, the weapon's silhouette is obscured by the lancer's model, as discussed before.

 

There are some cases of good enemy design - Hyekka/Drahk Masters, the Mortar Bombards, and Scorpions vs Butchers. But it's still absolutely something Warframe needs to work on

[Brynslustafir]

This community doesn't respond well to nerfs, especially blanket nerfs. This is a terrible idea. This won't go ever well at all. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Brynslustafir

[phoenix1992]

DMC 3, 4 and 5 have both.

It is not about pure power fantasy, it is about how you decide to map the challenge itself. 

[HexOmega111x]

il y a une heure, Jarriaga a dit :

Yet you seem to be the only one here who thinks that the context provided is wrong. People here are debating why they agree or don't agree with Pablo. You are the only one saying I misquoted him or misrepresented him.

Your title is misleading. A lot of people in this thread did not watch the video, obviously, and some others did not read your OP till the end, obviously. And this is where your point is clearly made. 

This thread is no different than all the others we have already. Once again people simply put their ideas one after the other without taking DE's point of view and vision into account and do not consider warframe and it's identity but they just align a bunch of comparison with totaly different games. 

Again, players are asking to change warframe into what DE don't want it to be. They are asking for changes that are simply not possible or ask to implement what we already have in many other games to make warframe another generic game. 

This prove at least one thing. The players are the one who don't listen to DE and are out of touch with the game and DE, not the other way around. 

[Loza03]

11 minutes ago, Thorham said:

Because it's fun and you play games for fun and not as a second job that has to be performed as efficiently as possible perhaps?

Sadly, there's this famous quote - "Players will optimise the fun out of your game".

The game itself needs to encourage playstyles which are more fun. The Extrinsic reward should serve as the breadcrumbs which lead to intrinsically rewarding gameplay. If the Extrinsic rewards lead to optimised, unfun gameplay? Then there's a problem.

10 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Bruh, no one stops ya. 

 

Words on a box doesn't stop anyone. Is your free will after all. 

The state of affairs on the current situation made me halt my money on this game for almost two years and wait what happens. I don't get burned out of War Frame and at the same time I get busy with TLoU2, Cyber Punk 77, Ghost of Tsushima and the PS5. This doesn't rules out War Frame at all. I get more patient waiting without having griefs. I get fun out of every game. That is the whole idea. 

Yes the discussion should be carried on but I don't waste my energies expecting changes. I don't place faith in this game either. If favorable updates happens, I'll see what's up. 

Look, this conversation isn't going anywhere.

You've made your decision, I've made mine.

[Hypernaut1]

Give us challenge in hard mode. Let everyone else keep their "power fantasy" in the regular game. That's all I ask.

 

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Your title is misleading.

How? Jizo asked about AI improvements for a more challenging experience, Pablo explained why that alone won't cut it because we can shut down the best AI in the world (That can even beat Starcraft pro players) by means of a single button press, and then said that such actions would need to be nerfed so better AI can make a difference.

How is the thread titled not reflecting this? How is "Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first" not reflective of that? Mods have seen this thread and commented in this thread and don't find the title to be misleading.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Brynslustafir]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

Give us challenge in hard mode. Let everyone else keep their "power fantasy" in the regular game. That's all I ask.

 

That's the logical approach. Yet some seem to overlook it. 

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Give us challenge in hard mode. Let everyone else keep their "power fantasy" in the regular game. That's all I ask.

 

A basic solution that is viable and attainable. 

 

The simplest solution is always the right one. 

[Brynslustafir]

Nerfing the players base level of power is a truly terrible idea, and anyone who thinks it would go over well is woefully shortsighted. Disrupting the base game won't achieve anything, it'll only piss people off. 

Creating more difficult tiers of endgame content is the only way to add new challenge options for those who want it without ruining the game for those who don't. It's really not hard to figure out. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Brynslustafir

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 minute ago, Brynslustafir said:

That's the logical approach. Yet some seem to overlook it. 

I think the debates are more for people to talk things out.

In reality they're probably gonna just continue to make small changes here and there and see what happens. The first stage will be observing how this hard mode effects the game and making tweaks here and there.

I dont think making any major change is a good idea and most know that. In any situation ripping the rug out as opposed to asking the person to move to the side so you can lift the rug is a better situation lol.

[Thorham]

9 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Yet there is no incentive to do that when you're playing a warframe that has constantly 90% DR constantly, even when running sortie level content. Better facetank and concentrate on aiming at stuff.

That's very likely what the person you quoted meant.

Yes, but that's the whole point: The incentive is fun. Most content doesn't need an almost immortal frame or one that can nuke the map in three milliseconds. Why not play any of the plethora of builds that are perfectly effective for normal content like sorties? Sure, I could have one of those completely op frame builds and not enjoy the game, or I can play my Exalted Blade build and have fun while still destroying everything. In fact, I enjoy playing Exalted Blade so much that I don't even bother with anything else (except Loki for Grineer Spy cheesing).

[Brynslustafir]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

I think the debates are more for people to talk things out.

In reality they're probably gonna just continue to make small changes here and there and see what happens. The first stage will be observing how this hard mode effects the game and making tweaks here and there.

I dont think making any major change is a good idea and most know that. In any situation ripping the rug out as opposed to asking the person to move to the side so you can lift the rug is a better situation lol.

It won't matter whether or not it's done in steps. Warframe has been building an identity as a power-fantasy third person action game for the last 7 years. Changing this, even incrementally will cause more problems than it solves. 

The only way to answer the challenge question without pissing off one sizable group or the other is to add content instead of altering content. 

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

Creating more difficult tiers of endgame content is the only way to add new challenge options for those who want it without ruining the game for those who don't. It's really not hard to figure out. 

Then let's take a more practical approach to your statement: How?

What does "creating more difficult tiers" mean when, as Pablo said, we stack overextended and stretch together? As Pablo said, we can shut down the AI completely with one button, so what does "more difficult tiers" include or entail in the context of that? 

More nullifiers? More enemies that are immune to abilities? Bullet sponges? New enemies that can disable your arcanes? New enemies that target objectives, as proposed? Such enemies would need to be immune to abilities like Arbitration drones considering players can overlap their range to cover the entire map and all spawn points.

So in practical terms, what is it that you are proposing that hasn't been badly received before?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga