Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Tokens210]

i think many of us here actually agree were just all on different pages of the same book

do our characters need a bit of a nerf yes, but personally i think not so crazy of one as us being powerful space soilders was always the whole idea of the game, but as it stand atleast a few outshine the other by a mile

Rivens should have never been added to the game, we already had weapons able to do so much damage theyd break the visable numbers you see, while at the same time we had weapons that you could spend every single bullet on 1 enemy and still not hurt their shields, rivens were not the answer and made the problem even worse while adding crazy new pricing to the player trade system for these so called godly rivens, i see ppl asking for over 4000p for some rivens and it makes me think what ever happened to DE sometimes stepping in when things got like that, like ember prime before double unvaulting, ember prime set were selling for almost 800p which is ridiculous, but the market is ours to mess up so DE let it slide a bit then when it was like 1000p a set DE unvaulted ember like within 3 days, effectively slashing that crazy pricing

if rivens were the only way de found to easily fix the weapons that were trash then rivens should have only been able to be gotten for those weapons only

do we need smarter enemies - yes

do we need more enemies that can null or disable our abilities - yes, were supposed to be powerful but we have weapons and companions so all the power doesnt need to be just the character, but that being said out of weapons, companions and characters the characters should still be the stronger of those 3 things

i also think enemy base areas and enemy transports need defenses against us - they know we exist and were coming for them so your gonna tell me they got no defense against us except locking a door on me, and they just wander around waiting to be killed

dropships for instance should be killable in open worlds but on tilesets where its just dropping reinforcements, the ship itself should be unkillable and have a power disabler on board so we cant nuke the enemies its dropping off, atleast until the ship leaves but if we had other enemies that could disable us by time the ship left theyd be setup to keep us disabled

add some ospreys or something similar that instead of overshield give AOE immunity to whoever they affect, again slowing or stopping insta nuke

id also love to see AI warframes dropping in to fight us, like im able to create a specter of 1 of my characters and throw it out and it uses its abilities and guns, why cant the enemies make an Amalgam warframe specter that literally copies one of the players loadouts and then fights us with it, of course this would be a rarer enemy

 

also number of enemies is trash in general, im attacking their base and they only come out in waves of like 50, nah i wanna see another 100 on top of that with it increasing atleast 10 every single wave on something like defense so while the mission remains an endless one, after a certain point its gonna be hella hard lol

[Brynslustafir]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Then let's take a more practical approach to your statement: How?

What does "creating more difficult tiers" work when, as Pablo said, we stack overextended and stretch together? As Pablo said, we can shut down the AI completely with one button, so what does "more difficult tiers" include or entail in the context of that? 

More nullifiers? More enemies that are immune to abilities? Buller sponges? New enemies that can disable your arcanes? New enemies that target objectives, as proposed? Such enemies would need to be immune to abilities like Arbitration drones considering players can overlap their range to cover the entire map and all spawn points.

So in practical terms, what is it that you are proposing that hasn't been badly received before?

It's pretty obvious, I think. DE already went over hard mode versions of existing mission nodes. That's enough for a first pass. Collect player feedback for this before implementing any significant changes. 

Unless you actually think changing the power-fantasy identity that this game has been building for the last 7 years is a good idea.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Brynslustafir

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 minute ago, Brynslustafir said:

It won't matter whether or not it's done in steps. Warframe has been building an identity as a power-fantasy third person action game for the last 7 years. Changing this, even incrementally will cause more problems than it solves. 

The only way to answer the challenge question without pissing off one sizable group or the other is to add content instead of altering content. 

I agree. They already added all this stuff, just add a harder node for us to use it on, essentially.

 

[Midas]

16 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

This community doesn't respond well to nerfs, especially blanket nerfs. This is a terrible idea. This won't go ever well at all. 

Sometimes things just need to happen, people will leave, but people rejoin every year. The thing we forget is people are constantly coming and going from warframe. As old people leave new flowers will grow regardless of what happens. Again, this is an opinion there are many for an experimental game like Warframe.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Midas

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

It's pretty obvious, I think. DE already went over hard mode versions of existing mission nodes. That's enough for a first pass. Collect player feedback for this before implementing any significant changes. 

I'm sorry, but that's a non-answer. Beyond enemies taking a bit more time to die, the difference with normal mode will be minimal if higher enemy levels is all there is even on the 10th pass. You said DE need to collect player feedback. What is the feedback in practical terms? How is "harder enemies" any clear? What does "harder enemies" mean? Better AI? Bullet sponges? Immune enemies? That's what I mean. 

That's something Scott touched on when he was interviewd: Players don't know how to provide feedback, because they don't know how to translate concepts to practicality beyond saying "that should improve" while never answering "improve how?".

7 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

Unless you actually think changing the power-fantasy identity that this game has been building for the last 7 years is a good idea.

If it's done on hard mode, yes. I mean, why even have a hard mode to begin with if it's not to challenge the power fantasy concept?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Brynslustafir]

1 minute ago, Midas said:

Sometimes things just need to happen, people will leave, but people rejoin every year. The thing we forget is people are constantly coming and going from warframe. As old people leave new flowers will grow regardless of what happens. Again, this is an opinion there are many for an experimental game like Warframe.

This is not one of those things that needs to happen. It's something that a small vocal minority wants even though it would be to the detriment of the majority. 

[Felsagger]

24 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

Look, this conversation isn't going anywhere.

You've made your decision, I've made mine.

 

Sir  Loza the third, (your name with a three), I have fun reading how people think their fun. That is interesting because it gives me an idea of different perceptions. I'm not here to disperse negativity. We have to distance ourselves from our hobbies, look at them again in an exhaustive way, and then get back. 

What we get, a different perspective where we evaluate our psychology of dependence/independence, attachments/disengagements, expectations/disdains. We place our mind in a more flexible frame of reference allowing us understand, enjoy and comprehend what we do. 

I am not convincing you of anything. It's that with all the trouble DE have now we are pressing WAY TOO HARD on their backs expecting insane fixes. Let better times comes for them. I'm strictly sure that the game will improve like it has before despite all the hurdles.  

 

Then we can be here demanding and 'playing our ultimate endgame' forum post game, the MOTHAH PHUC'ng farm of likes or agreements, lol. :3

Edited May 18, 2020 by Felsagger

[Tokens210]

1 minute ago, Midas said:

Sometimes things just need to happen, people will leave, but people rejoin every year. The thing we forget is people are constantly coming and going from warframe. As old people leave new flowers will grow regardless of what happens. Again, this is an opinion there are many for an experimental game like Warframe.

theres still a large number of old or original players still here, i myself have been in the game since late year 1, wasnt on the forums till maybe year 3

atleast for me im still here cause i absolutely loved the whole idea of the game, the gameplay, the power etc etc.

watching whats been done to it has been very upsetting, i used to wish i was a founder but not anymore, they were actually supposed to be part of the games development but that didnt seem to pan out as most of what they suggested got ignored

currently my gameplay of warframe has regressed to 3 months of play, 1 - 2 years of not playing, 3 month of play etc etc

[Brynslustafir]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm sorry, but that's a non-answer. Beyond enemies taking a bit more time to die, the difference with normal mode will be minimal if higher enemy levels is all there is even on the 10th pass.

You said DE need to collect player feedback. What is the feedback in practical terms? How is "harder enemies" any clear? What does "harder enemies" mean? Better AI? Bullet sponges? Immune enemies? That's what I mean.

I really shouldn't need to explain to you what feedback is. 

Harder enemies doesn't just mean higher levels, higher armor values or more nullies. In many situations you could add chalenge by making sure enemies are placed a bit more intelligently. Got a frost eximus? bundle the mooks around them. Got a fire eximus? place them near the entrance so players get staggered if they don't pay attention.

Hell, even just making nullies more physically aggressive would alter the flow of gameplay by putting the players active abilities more at risk.

 

 

[LSG501]

44 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Would disallowing AoE stuff to go through walls and obstacles take anything away from this power fantasy? I don't think so. It would greatly benefit the gameplay though.

In all honesty, DE's line of sight is pretty shoddy with obstacles that basically shouldn't affect anything blocking stuff... and to be fair this also affects melee hence why we don't always connect with visible targets, so linking it to abilities would need improvements. 

So if they were to remove abilities going through walls etc then they also need to improve the system that is basically going to replace it and until that is done there would be no benefit in removing AoE through walls for me personally...

Having said all that there is no reason why abilities that magically appear out of the sky from nowhere shouldn't be hitting on the other side of a wall, same thing goes for 'sonic' abilities (which would naturally go through walls in the real world) and even to a point temperature based abilities could go through walls too. 

[Brynslustafir]

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

If it's done on hard mode, yes. I mean, why even have a hard mode to begin with if it's not to challenge the power fantasy concept?

See, as long as these changes are contained within their own mode I'm fine with it. 

I only take issue with overzealous fools that think the entire game needs to be made harder. 

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

I really shouldn't need to explain to you what feedback is. 

Harder enemies doesn't just mean higher levels, higher armor values or more nullies. In many situations you could add chalenge by making sure enemies are placed a bit more intelligently. Got a frost eximus? bundle the mooks around them. Got a fire eximus? place them near the entrance so players get staggered if they don't pay attention.

Hell, even just making nullies more physically aggressive would alter the flow of gameplay by putting the players active abilities more at risk.

Spawned within Mesa's range. All dead in 2 seconds.

Spawned within Equino'x range even if above or behind her. All dead at once.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Brynslustafir]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Spawned within Mesa's range. All dead in 2 seconds.

Spawned within Equino'x range even if above or behind her. All dead at once.

You can't take away the sensation of power without robbing the game of it's identity. 

This might result in a more balanced experience, but not a more enjoyable one. Balance doesn't always equal fun. 

The game is a power fantasy, and that doesn't need to change. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Brynslustafir

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

You can't take away the sensation of power without robbing the game of it's identity. 

This might result in a more balanced experience, but not a more enjoyable one. 

Why even have a hard mode to begin with if it's not to challenge the power fantasy concept? Are you expecting for hard mode to intentionally be made a breeze so it can keep the power fantasy feel by you not being challenged in hard mode? Do you also expect to stay hydrated without drinking water as well?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Brynslustafir]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Why even have a hard mode to begin with if it's not to challenge the power fantasy concept? Are you expecting for hard mode to intentionally made to be a breeze so it can keep the power fantasy feel by you not being challenged in hard mode? Do you also expect to stay hydrated without drinking water as well?

There's been a miscommunication here, I'm OK with balance changes being made within hard mode. Just don't disrupt the flow of the base game. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Brynslustafir

[Jarriaga]

Just now, Brynslustafir said:

There's been a miscommunication here, I'm OK with balance changed being made within hard mode. Just don't disrupt the flow of the base game. 

That's fair. That's a middle ground we can hold at peace.

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Spawned within Mesa's range. All dead in 2 seconds.

Spawned within Equino'x range even if above or behind her. All dead at once.

I think some of us are overstating how powerful the "op" Warframe are. Mesa doesn't kill everything in 2 seconds and equinox takes time to build her nuke if you aren't on the star chart. Even Wukong can die in difficult content if you aren't careful

Honestly, this game has had spikes of difficulty, even with "OP" frames. The problem always comes from people saying "no, we don't want to be challenged!" From armor to damage. 

The devs have done a lot to not make frames fire and forget. It's the enemies that have been weakened too much. 

. 

[Jarriaga]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I think some of us are overstating how powerful the "op" Warframe are. Mesa doesn't kill everything in 2 seconds and equinox takes time to build her nuke if you aren't on the star chart. Even Wukong can die in difficult content if you aren't careful

Honestly, this game has had spikes of difficulty, even with "OP" frames. The problem always comes from people saying "no, we don't want to be challenged!" From armor to damage. 

The devs have done a lot to not make frames fire and forget. It's the enemies that have been weakened too much. 

. 

Ever heard of Equinox tennis?

[Tokens210]

14 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I am not convincing you of anything. It's that with all the trouble DE have now we are pressing WAY TOO HARD on their backs expecting insane fixes. Let better times comes for them. I'm strictly sure that the game will improve like it has before despite all the hurdles.

the trouble DE may be in is their own doing, they havent listened nor have they followed thru with things they themselves promised, early year 2 in a stream Steve announced the DE dropped the ball hard on a tutorial or explaining the game mechanics in general and Swore a team was going back to create an actual full tutorial for new player, wheres that at? was like 5 or 6 years not enough time for that?

 

DE released POE and the player base said, you cant just allow fresh players access, most don't even have archwings yet let alone weapons that can fight plains enemies, but we were able to share archwings back then and give someone who hadnt unlocked it, one to travel the open world, what did DE do, made the charges unlimited but also made it so you couldnt share them, exactly what did that fix, and i understand why they did it, the open worrd brought soo soo many new players and de didnt want them to get mad they couldnt access it right away, but they still just made things worse

 

as far as explaining things, they still didnt learn, im coming back from awhile away and i know railjack and lichs are a thing but thats all i know as the game itself told me nothing, and mentioning POE earlier, where does it tell a new player they MUST use their amp to remove the ediolon shields before it takes damage? dude repeatably tells you how lures work kinda over and over again but a crucial piece of info for newer ppl nowhere to be found

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Spawned within Mesa's range. All dead in 2 seconds.

Spawned within Equino'x range even if above or behind her. All dead at once.

At what level? You left that out......

[Lost_Cartographer]

18 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

Problem is that basically ONE PERSON has the capability to strip the enemy of any and all capacity to be even a marginal threat to us and thus IS taking all the fun out of the process.  We've gone the full opposite from ultra frustratingly hard: Mind numbingly easy.  Unless of course, if you run solo and intentionally sub-optimally build (but then the people calling for a challenge BSOD when you recommend them this avenue as an option...)  Warframe is a solo game with the option of having a semi-captive audience.  There's always that one guy that basically plays the game for everyone else in the squad with a single button press.  And people flip their $#!% whenever this level of power over other players' experiences is addressed.  THIS is why Warframe can't ever offer a challenge.

Nerfing CC and and area wide nukes isn't going to turn the game into Dark Souls.  It will require people to watch each other's backs with some retuning of stats, and people will simply have to realize endless scaling is meant to beat you.  Doubtful though that most players will ever realize these truths however.  Lotus forbid they actually have to play.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Lost_Cartographer

[(XBOX)LZonut]

This could be added as a new mode, people who want relaxing gameplay play on normal mode with normal enemies, people who want challenge can go play a new mode with these new enemies. We already kinda see this with arbitrations.

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

At what level? You left that out......

I mean, sure. Not at level 9999 of course.

But certainly up to level 500.  I don't see how that's relevant unless you wish to present the argument that 4 hours into the game you may hit a power scaling wall.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I mean, sure. Not at level 9999 of course.

But certainly up to level 500. 

Wow I havent reached 500 yet.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Wow I havent reached 500 yet.

This is inevitable if you're doing a John Prodman run in the index.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga