Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think some of us are overstating how powerful the "op" Warframe are. Mesa doesn't kill everything in 2 seconds and equinox takes time to build her nuke if you aren't on the star chart. Even Wukong can die in difficult content if you aren't careful

Honestly, this game has had spikes of difficulty, even with "OP" frames. The problem always comes from people saying "no, we don't want to be challenged!" From armor to damage. 

The devs have done a lot to not make frames fire and forget. It's the enemies that have been weakened too much. 

. 

Equinox's Nuke is still hypothetically infinite damage though, and Mesa might not kill everything in 2 seconds, but it's still pretty fast and still requires very little of the player. Plus this doesn't go into some of the other OP things - CC and invisibility/invincibility.

CC is flat, basically. It affects everything irrespective of level. Even though there might be some holes, those holes are either really small or very easy to patch. Limbo's Stasis for example. Invisibility is the same way. Right now, there isn't a winning play AI can make when the player can choose to be exempt from the AI.

Immortal Tank frames are a bit different - that's in large part due to the damage system failing. The EHP of an end-game 'squishy', and an end-game viable tank is ludicrous, often having a difference of hundreds of thousands of effective hit points. This is a case where abilities aren't really the problem, more the tying of some elements of progression to optional mods. Since the lower bounds of EHP are functionally identical to the start of the game, the ability to increase damage at end-game is much more limited.

[Tokens210]

equinox also just highlights that our powers arnt the only thing broken, ive been in games with my equinox and i wont run maim the whole time, ill save it for if things get crazy

i usually have 2 different responses

1. ppl that say thank god an equinox that isnt just nuking everything all day

2. ppl that say if you dont know how to play equinox dont play em (clearly ppl that wanted me to nuke everything lol)

 

but the other day i was in a defense with low level players who were ranking things and i didnt check what weapons they have but i put up maim when things got crazy, heard a single blast like a shotgun or sniper and my maim had 290k damage ready, i didnt shoot anything and my maim only increases like 90 or 100 damage per pulse and i just put it up so that newer, lower level players weapon just did almost 300k, most likely due to a riven but then ppl will say oh snap he so OP,  and yes he is a little OP but the issues gets compounded with weapons and rivens able to hit as hard as they can

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

Nerfing the players base level of power is a truly terrible idea, and anyone who thinks it would go over well is woefully shortsighted. Disrupting the base game won't achieve anything, it'll only piss people off. 

Creating more difficult tiers of endgame content is the only way to add new challenge options for those who want it without ruining the game for those who don't. It's really not hard to figure out. 

Regrettably, it kinda is...

Even if they instituted an isolated gameplay difficulty mode it would still wind up offering different/better rewards than the main game because that is what DE has done consistently for years now. Even if they broke the mold and opted against that this time around they would still eventually cave and do it anyway to encourage people to play it.

Put simply, any new mode will be used as a gate for some form of content (whether it's story or items) and we know this because every new mode has been handled the same way.

When you consider that we can't actually align on what will reasonably make difficulty tiers acceptable and that people want that subjective challenge threshold to present itself to the full range of their (the player) current loadout's capacity even when that is literally impossible?... It begins to look like a catch-22.    

Couple that with the fact that everyone's definition of balance is subjective and we wind up with threads just like this one... over and over again.

 

I agree with the concept of "separate but equal" being ideal in this scenario but don't see it being implemented in such a way at all because it never really has been, and players wouldn't let it remain so regardless.

 

For my part, I feel bad for DE in this case as they have really only implemented what they thought players wanted, were told by players they wanted, or what they thought would be cool and have painted themselves into a tricky corner in the process. 

[Xaero]

14 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

In all honesty, DE's line of sight is pretty shoddy with obstacles that basically shouldn't affect anything blocking stuff... and to be fair this also affects melee hence why we don't always connect with visible targets, so linking it to abilities would need improvements. 

I've been playing Excalibur all these years and I don't recall having any issues with LoS-dependant Radial Blind.

22 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

So if they were to remove abilities going through walls etc then they also need to improve the system that is basically going to replace it and until that is done there would be no benefit in removing AoE through walls for me personally...

Why should there be a system that is basically going to replace it? The change doesn't benefit you personally, but it benefits the gameplay overall, because it tones down the most efficient/efortless way of dealing with enemies and makes active playstyle preferable.

25 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Having said all that there is no reason why abilities that magically appear out of the sky from nowhere shouldn't be hitting on the other side of a wall, same thing goes for 'sonic' abilities (which would naturally go through walls in the real world) and even to a point temperature based abilities could go through walls too.

There is also no reason why abilities that magically appear from nowhere should ignore everything. Anyone who has some experience playing action games would expect cover having at least some meaning. When a boss in some game launches a map-wide AoE attack, you naturally take cover behind walls or obstacles.

[Felsagger]

This thread will happen constantly because there is some sort of resistance of doing the simplest solution. 

 

Leave the power fantasy game as it is and focus on a harder mission mode where people can select in the star chart map. 

 

I don't get into the nerdy and geeky conversations of what war frame does what, or weapon or gadget because such redundant discussion is the same lapping around the problem. 

[phoenix1992]

I mean, when we draw the line we need to pull a list off what is difficult and what should be.

A load out with more than 14 formas between it, multiple arcanes and such should never struggle with current content (unless the driver has Id10t issues).
Lith relics should never be a benchmark, neither should Meso or Neo (even Axi to an extend).
Adding invulnerability phases? - Something De has been guilty of more than once and it always leads to poor experience.
Immunity to Warframe abilities - same deal.

So let us propose a "hard" mode then....

A mode in which you have a cap for your mod capacity, regardless of formas (for example 30/60) would push people to pick what they need, not what they want.
No operators means less sustain.
No gear mode, means no pads.
No arcanes is self explanatory.

You can make a horde mode without nerfs, but it means actually thinking about budgets.

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Leave the power fantasy game as it is and focus on a harder mission mode where people can select in the star chart map.

Isn't that the purpose of the hard mode?

The problem there will be those who don't want their power fantasy "ruined" getting angry once they find out that hard mode has better/exclusive rewards as is hard mode in any other loot game.

They won't allow for hard mode to be hard at that point.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Aldain]

37 minutes ago, Brynslustafir said:

Balance doesn't always equal fun.

Imbalance doesn't always equal fun either.

Otherwise the most fun thing DE could do would be to make a gun that kills every enemy in the tileset with a single trigger pull no matter how far away they are through walls, doors and any defensive abilities the enemies have.

Or better yet a gun that when fired instantly goes to the mission success screen.

[Gabbynaru]

26 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Lotus forbid they actually have to play.

Also Lotus forbid people wanting to play this game differently than you, eh?

Sorry, but I see this game as something to play when I just want to turn my mind off and relax. It should keep on being that, as it's been for the past 6 years. If I wanted pointless challenge, I have other games in my library for that, but very few, especially action games, that allow me to relax while playing them (I can only think of the Yakuza series atm). This is a massive strength for Warframe and something that makes it stand out from the crowd. Why take it away and make it generci sci-fi shooter #74025?

[Tokens210]

2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Also Lotus forbid people wanting to play this game differently than you, eh?

Sorry, but I see this game as something to play when I just want to turn my mind off and relax. It should keep on being that, as it's been for the past 6 years. If I wanted pointless challenge, I have other games in my library for that, but very few, especially action games, that allow me to relax while playing them (I can only think of the Yakuza series atm). This is a massive strength for Warframe and something that makes it stand out from the crowd. Why take it away and make it generci sci-fi shooter #74025?

many of us want it to stay that way as well, were talking about the proposed or talked about hard mode, being able to redo the star chart or specific areas and choose difficulty, the base game and first go around the star chart might need tweaks but the changes were proposing atleast from what i was assuming are for a difficulty setting like most other games have

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Isn't that the purpose of the hard mode?

The problem there will be those who don't want their power fantasy "ruined" getting angry once they find out that hard mode has better/exclusive rewards as is hard mode in any other loot game.

They won't allow for hard mode to be hard at that point.

Personally, I don't need to be rewarded greatly for playing hard mode. A simple cosmetic and small bonus in resources would be enough for me.

I still think people will complain though. What is a power fantasy if you don't feel like your the best in ALL content? I think some people will have their egos hurt, try hard mode and start the cycle of "nerf these enemies. It's cheese" again

Hard mode needs to exist without making others feel like thats the only real way to play Warframe. I don't know how DE is going to manage that. 

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

What about creating a second version of hard mode that would basically be a more engaging and challenging version of warframe? That way players who want to turn their brains off and relax play the version we currently have while players that are bored and want to challenge themselves switch to that mode. I mean, its easier said than done but it could work. The game itself would need tweaking but it might be worth a shot. 

[Hypernaut1]

11 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

many of us want it to stay that way as well, were talking about the proposed or talked about hard mode, being able to redo the star chart or specific areas and choose difficulty, the base game and first go around the star chart might need tweaks but the changes were proposing atleast from what i was assuming are for a difficulty setting like most other games have

 Why the pushback? Are they afraid of an elitist class of Warframe players developing?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[Jarriaga]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

Personally, I don't need to be rewarded greatly for playing hard mode. A simple cosmetic and small bonus in resources would be enough for me.

I still think people will complain though. What is a power fantasy if you don't feel like your the best in ALL content? I think some people will have their egos hurt, try hard mode and start the cycle of "nerf these enemies. It's cheese" again

Hard mode needs to exist without making others feel like thats the only real way to play Warframe. I don't know how DE is going to manage that. 

DE can't manage that, and I hope they make their peace with that.

We are talking about an opt in hard mode that you must unlock and then choose to join. Why would you willingly join a hard mode while not wanting to be challenged? Do those people also expect to remain hydrated without drinking water? There's no possible way to reason with those people if they want for hard mode to be easy, so I think it will be best for DE to not listen to them.

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Isn't that the purpose of the hard mode?

The problem there will be those who don't want their power fantasy "ruined" getting angry once they find out that hard mode has better/exclusive rewards as is hard mode in any other loot game.

They won't allow for hard mode to be hard at that point.

And the snake just ate it's own tail...

If DE lets Hard Modes challenge be it's own reward then many players will be livid.

If DE adds commensurate rewards to Hard Mode then many other players will be livid.

If DE just nerfs everything to force higher difficulty game-wide there will be a complete melt-down.

If DE adds cheap tactics to increase the chance of mission fail, even incrementally, Tenno will either complain or outright stop playing in droves. A 30 minute run with nothing to show for it is a waste of time...Easier to just not log in as you wind up with the same result regardless.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

And the snake just ate it's own tail...

If DE lets Hard Modes challenge be it's own reward then many players will be livid.

If DE adds commensurate rewards to Hard Mode then many other players will be livid.

If DE just nerfs everything to force higher difficulty game-wide there will be a complete melt-down.

If DE adds cheap tactics to increase the chance of mission fail, even incrementally, Tenno will either complain or outright stop playing in droves. A 30 minute run with nothing to show for it is a waste of time...Easier to just not log in as you wind up with the same result regardless.

Indeed. There will be pushback by some people no matter what DE do. I mean, just look at what the first response to this thread is. Players are diametrically opposed in views and what they are willing to accept. 

[Midas]

I think a compromise needs to happen with every update. Content for older players (4+ years) and content for younger players (2-3 year old accounts). This way everyone has something to do. This would allow both perspectives here to meet half way.

[Tokens210]

13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Indeed. There will be pushback by some people no matter what DE do. I mean, just look at what the first response to this thread is. Players are diametrically opposed in views and what they are willing to accept. 

but how this threads been going is actually one of the reasons i like this community

there may be a few bad apples here and there but it hasnt devolved to name calling and flat out your wrongs, no your wrongs

its a 14 page thread started not even 24hrs ago full of ppl that all love the game and would like to see changes but cant actually agree on what form of changes, this is literally most likely the same thing that happens at DE with proposed changes

in some cases some proves points you forgot and your stance changes, in other your points change their stance, this is an actual adult disscusion or debate whatever youd like to call it

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[fatpig84]

I can see where Pablo is going though.
But I doubt he can get through with anything major, because any major changes / nerf will break the power fantasy so many are hooked on.

Because WF is in 2 very separate and polarizing camps. And often irreconcilable positions. The casual and the veterans.

For example casuals (by no means I am using this in a negative tone) were complaining about how hard or grindy RJ was for months.
Meanwhile the hardcore were nuking veil spamming void hole and were either 9/9/9/9 or 10/10/10/10. BEFORE Scarlet Spear.
In fact I dare say the easiest games were in Veil, because kit out ships decimate Gian point in 5 minutes.
You don't even need to repair due to how fast enemy dies (best offense is a great defense).

Now the difficulty in RJ was reduced and grind reduced. That even certain youtubers are calling out on DE and say it is so easy that RJ will not hold attention.

Previously endgame Trials were the only source of arcanes. But only 2% to 5% of the population played 8 men trials.
But this gave the hardcore vets (It was almost exclusively Clan run, good luck in pub) a real endgame activity where voice mic coordination mattered.

It also gave hardcore Clans a full monopoly for the arcane market. Which again caused some ire among certain group.
So DE removed raids "due to bugs" which was honestly garbage in my opinion (barring Jordas raid, Vay Hek was ok, they could have retain LOR).
Even then people still did not do much Eidolons and complain... Again. In fact, the 5x3 or 6x3 runners are probably the same few faces.

I can cite more like remember when sorties are first introduced, casuals complaint that riven was locked behind sorties ?
Or how people complaint lich killed them during a failed attempt (it is only 1 life out of 5 c'mon) ?

So in my opinion DE hands are tied, either appease the masses that may appear once a while when there is a large content drop.
Or pander to the veterans more. 

In the end though, I am sure hard mode will be adjusted so even casuals can compete. Because if hard mode drops great rewards, everyone will want a piece of the pie.
And it has to drop good rewards for the time taken, otherwise it would be ignored.

And make no mistake, DE has being trying their damn hardest to do endgame content. But DE has the numbers on Eidolons, ESO and Arbitration which are endgame. 
They know where the majority of the crowd plays at.

Edited May 18, 2020 by fatpig84

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

but how this threads been going is actually one of the reasons i like this community

there may be a few bad apples here and there but it hasnt devolved to name calling and flat out your wrongs, no your wrongs

its a 14 page thread started not even 24hrs ago full of ppl that all love the game and would like to see changes but cant actually agree on what form of changes, this is literally most likely the same thing that happens at DE with proposed changes

in some cases some proves points you forgot and your stance changes, in other your points change their stance, this is an actual adult disscusion or debate whatever youd like to call it

Sorry, can't like your post twice.

[Aseraan]

Than lets nerf us start whit doing something whit removing the mandatory  damage mods.

I still dont see btw how is the brama got into the game tonkor got nerfed simulor got nerfed DE just  going round round whit this make  a realy annoying weapon  nerf it than make another one just like the previus one.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Indeed. There will be pushback by some people no matter what DE do. I mean, just look at what the first response to this thread is. Players are diametrically opposed in views and what they are willing to accept. 

That's obvious and expected. I'm in the camp that just says add another tab to the existing tabs in that world alert state thingy on the star chart. This tab will be for people that want something a bit harder. Make tweaks here and there and just test it out. 

I really cant handle waiting 2 hours for hard enemies. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 hours ago, 844448 said:

With our community that choose to complain in forum over telling people dos and don'ts in chat and toxicity over something trivial? This is why I sort of think that it will make people go solo or being really toxic and blaming others (well, sortie spy public is a thing) because the risk is a bit too great to lose. When you lose that condition overload, you don't know how many drekar butcher you will butcher down to find another one so imagine losing that because of one mistake if people won't scream on the mic and throwing insults and tantrum

As everyone says “ the forum and reddit are a small vocal community of the playerbase”

[kwlingo]

4 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Gonna react to that one quote I saw in the OP as a suggestion to increase the difficulty of the game :

All of this is basically countered by massive nuking. You don't care about targeting a specific enemy when everything is already dead, unless you give it a nullifier bubble.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid. 😞

 

 

Aside from that, what can I say ? I've been saying forever that uncontrolled nuking is a massive problem if people want balance and challenge. Looks like mass CC is a problem as well, which is not surprising. In the end, I guess what will matter is the biggest demographic.

 I agree 10000%! Why is it so hard for players to understand this is a problem not a solution to game play. But all the nukers and tankers will always have an issue with this possible nerf or fix.

[Felsagger]

38 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Isn't that the purpose of the hard mode?

The problem there will be those who don't want their power fantasy "ruined" getting angry once they find out that hard mode has better/exclusive rewards as is hard mode in any other loot game.

They won't allow for hard mode to be hard at that point.

 

I'm going rude:

Scrubs and nubs need to 'git gud'. I'm not going to have a Carebear luggage for those crybabies. Enough of their toddling and hand holding. Everybody wants to be rewarded like a child all the time? I mean c'mon. 

I'm tired of players like these. We try to do something and they come in doing another pullback. 

You can't please everybody. You plug in a decision and stick with it. Those rewards can be available elsewhere with the wall of RNG. Simple.