Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Rakosta_Kai]

This is merely my personal opinion:

When you paint yourself into a corner, you have to paint yourself out of it too.

 

The simplest answer is the hardest in this case in that the simplest answer, imo, is a sequel game where your operator frames, and weapons carry over and continues the story of the game in an entirely new direction while presenting you with mostly brand new enemies.

• No Grinneer, Corpus, or even the same star chart. 
• Existing mods don't work.
• Tell a coherent story of the infested, an orokin off-shoot, Sentient, Void Sent, Void Entities or even make enemies out of other operators entirely. 
• No levels or cap them through gameplay as opposed to item acquisition.
• Powers, defenses, and everything else should be hard capped with DR for anything over the cap and subsequent rewards should be stuff that simply isn't available in the existing game at all.
• Market it as a Warframe with fangs. State that solo may be possible but co-op is highly suggested.
• Add repair costs and even charge for rounds used in the missions as expenses against the bottom line as you are no longer in known space.

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, Felsagger said:

 

I'm going rude:

Scrubs and nubs need to 'git gud'. I'm not going to have a Carebear luggage for those crybabies. Enough of their toddling and hand holding. Everybody wants to be rewarded like a child all the time? I mean c'mon. 

I'm tired of players like these. We try to do something and they come in doing another pullback. 

You can't please everybody. You plug in a decision and stick with it. Those rewards can be available elsewhere with the wall of RNG. Simple. 

 

The care bear thread ... @MagPrime

[(XBOX)x ARTaco x]

all i know is if they make the game harder, yet leave the super inflated plat costs in the market, the stupid expensive rush costs on EVERYTHING, and all their stupid standing caps and time gates, i'm gonna get the fork out of here and never look back purely out of spite

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

This is inevitable if you're doing a John Prodman run in the index.

I did Prodman recently and it was only 200 something? Maybe high 200 I cant remember I'd have to take a look at the video I made....but then again...it was on ps4 and I probably wont be able to see the level number.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

The care bear thread ... @MagPrime

LMAO, that's a discussion for another time. 

And Mag Prime is one of those frames that RUINS LITERALLY everything. So don't get me started. 

[HexOmega111x]

Il y a 1 heure, Jarriaga a dit :

How? Jizo asked about AI improvements for a more challenging experience, Pablo explained why that alone won't cut it because we can shut down the best AI in the world (That can even beat Starcraft pro players) by means of a single button press, and then said that such actions would need to be nerfed so better AI can make a difference.

How is the thread titled not reflecting this? How is "Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first" not reflective of that? Mods have seen this thread and commented in this thread and don't find the title to be misleading.

Because Pablo did not explain that it is a possibility they are exploring. He simply explained why this is a path that DE will not follow. This is not an option. He's not telling us that this is what we have to expect for the futur if the game. DE want this game to be a power fantasy game. 

The part when he say that to have a balanced game, the game must be developed around this concept, is important. DE knows that warframe is not a balanced game because they never had the intention to make such a game. 

The AI path is not an option. 

[kwlingo]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

That’s not why people camp in endurance runs. Too much moving around will mess up the spawn points of the enemies which effects how quickly the enemies can get to you, and if they can’t get to you as quickly then your kills per second go down, and then you have less life support. Staying in one spot or one room is the best strategy to go far in an endurance run. 

You can get more kills charging into enemies killing and rushing in the direction of spawns instead of waiting and camping. Players only camp because they don't want to get tapped by enemy bullets and powers so they hide where they cannot get capped and have frame abilities do the trick of boring game play. Have you seen the 18-36 hour mission runs, that like of game play is brain dead. They enemies are literally just doing nothing but running into the waves of scaling abilities or Bramma as they camp like sitting ducks.

[(PSN)thegarada]

I agree with Pablo. The direction of adding difficulty through arbitration drones and nullifiers only impacts some frames that rely on skills for damage or CC for survivability. However, these issues pop-up occasionally. Bosses are immune to it. Some mobs are. The more we add in that direction, the more the game will become playing Inaros type frames, where all other frames eat the dust. 

I think that adding more AOE effects, more frontal attacks that are slower and require dodging, could spice the game play a bit. And we could have these things done by mobs that take are not subject to CC, but also do not deal direct damage. This way they cannot one shot you at higher levels, and you cannot permanently CC them to avoid the mechanics. I think this could be a middle ground that perseveres the game play design while adding some diversity.

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Because Pablo did not explain that it is a possibility they are exploring. 

And where did I say it was? Care to quote that? Last edit time is way older than your post.

9 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

 He simply explained why this is a path that DE will not follow. This is not an option. He's not telling us that this is what we have to expect for the futur if the game. 

And who here is saying that it is? Did you read the entire OP or did you jump in to post while skipping this part:

19 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

As Pablo pointed out, most players here would not accept massive changes and nerfs to area nuking and CC

So what are you even arguing? A person asked him about AI improvements and he gave his answer as to why that wouldn't work on its own. The answer is reflected in the OP, so what is your point?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Xaero said:

I've been playing Excalibur all these years and I don't recall having any issues with LoS-dependant Radial Blind.

Clearly you haven't been taking that much notice... but then excalibur is the poster child for warframe so...

Quote

Why should there be a system that is basically going to replace it? The change doesn't benefit you personally, but it benefits the gameplay overall, because it tones down the most efficient/efortless way of dealing with enemies and makes active playstyle preferable.

There is also no reason why abilities that magically appear from nowhere should ignore everything. Anyone who has some experience playing action games would expect cover having at least some meaning. When a boss in some game launches a map-wide AoE attack, you naturally take cover behind walls or obstacles.

Yet I disagree with all that...

Ultimately I don't want a game that is little better than any other point and shoot game (which in most cases are far better than warframe at that aspect of the game).  Toning abilities down to suit YOUR preferences would ruin the essence of what brought many of us into the game, the abilities are basically the only unique part of warframe.

Edited May 18, 2020 by LSG501

[Tokens210]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)x ARTaco x said:

all i know is if they make the game harder, yet leave the super inflated plat costs in the market, the stupid expensive rush costs on EVERYTHING, and all their stupid standing caps and time gates, i'm gonna get the fork out of here and never look back purely out of spite

DE doesnt control play costs in trading and plat is tradable so you can get it without money, plat costs in the market are controlled by DE and is how they actually make money, that and prime access

you shouldnt be rushing things almost ever

caps and time gates will never go away its a free to play game where you can get everything without spending money if you worked hard enough

 

[(XBOX)x ARTaco x]

2 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

DE doesnt control play costs in trading

never said anything about trading.

 

timegates and caps will get magnified if the difficulty goes up.

 

and yes i rush a lot of stuff now because i've played for years and have 1000's of plat now. i don't want one forma per day. when a new prime pack comes out i need like 20 formas over the course of a couple days. rush costs and time gates are the bane of my existence rn tbh

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)x ARTaco x

[Tokens210]

1 minute ago, (XB1)x ARTaco x said:

never said anything about trading.

never said you did, i said it

you said their market prices are to high and my response was they don't control trading and you can trade for platinum

[MagPrime]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

The care bear thread ... @MagPrime

Nah, it was nuked.  This is something else entirely. 

[RamonLLLL]

20 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

LMAO, that's a discussion for another time. 

And Mag Prime is one of those frames that RUINS LITERALLY everything. So don't get me started. 

@MagPrime please obliterate this person.

[(XBOX)x ARTaco x]

9 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

caps and time gates will never go away its a free to play game where you can get everything without spending money if you worked hard enough

or if you pay to skip it. why is that even a freaking option then for some stuff yet not for others? is it because they want people to hit them up daily for their fix? maybe idk feels that way. you can't even queue things in the forge. nope gotta log in daily to build them formas, reactors, kubrows, etc. 

 

also

11 minutes ago, (XB1)x ARTaco x said:

and yes i rush a lot of stuff now because i've played for years and have 1000's of plat now. i don't want one forma per day. when a new prime pack comes out i need like 20 formas over the course of a couple days. rush costs and time gates are the bane of my existence rn tbh

 

[fatpig84]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I think that adding more AOE effects, more frontal attacks that are slower and require dodging, could spice the game play a bit. And we could have these things done by mobs that take are not subject to CC, but also do not deal direct damage. This way they cannot one shot you at higher levels, and you cannot permanently CC them to avoid the mechanics. I think this could be a middle ground that perseveres the game play design while adding some diversity.

And when is the last time people use a real CC frame ?
Last check Scarlet spear was Limbo and he got nerfed in a few days. 

Bottom line pure CC frames are already extremely unpopular frames to use.
They have the same frail tendencies of  some "DPS / nuke" frames (plenty of nukers like Gara are not fragile at all), but CC frames also don't deal a lot of damage.

Heck Gara, Khora and Octavia overlap so hard that they outright replace most CC frames in their role (nyx / vauban / Limbo etc) while retaining very high TTK.
So if Khora can't use her 2 or 4 due to some arbitrary restrictions like yours, she will use her 1 and instant delete the mobs for over a million damage.

Then people say then extend it to all abilities. Hey but we have nullifiers already for that. 
So this solution is nothing new.

As for adding more AOE effects, do we want to propose more AOEs with possible knock downs ?
Warframe is a horde shooter, an enemy that deals AOE even if in a cone is going to cause huge problems for many players.
Add on CC immunity and endgame difficulty levels, you have a recipe for huge complaints.

Or the hardcore simply calmly one shot it with their min max builds while the other 90% complain.

Edited May 18, 2020 by fatpig84

[MysticDragonMage]

 

19 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

 

19 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Fully agree, people should just accept the direction of the game instead of trying to turn it into dark souls 4, while basically pissing off the majority of players.

Warframe won't survive if the majority is gone. 

agreed.

the only reason i do not like the handful a warframes representing the power fantasy is because my own favorite warframes are unfortunately  not among those classified as such. warframe is not fun when i play as my favorite warframe Excalibur while paired with a warframe like Saryn or Mesa, but if i as Excalibur can eliminate enemies as quickly and as efficiently as any Mesa or Saryn, then i'd have literally no problems.

with that said, it is sad that only a handful of warframes represent the power fantasy. the concept of a power fantasy should be the player's ability to optimize their playstyles rather than choosing specific meta builds.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

So we're back to square one: The community not liking the solution does not negate that he expressed that it was the solution.

Since I acknowledged that he said that this is not viable because of community backlash in the opening post, I am not sure what you are trying to argue here. If you are arguing that "I dont think the community will like that." needs to be added, the opposite is true: You are in fact making his point by highlighting that the hindrance is the community, not that he thinks that such a change would be bad on its own.

We're going in circles, and you're even arguing for the same thing and amplifying what he said without even noticing because of your rejection to the concept of nerfs in principle. Otherwise, the implication there is that nothing is a solution if the community doesn't like it, which I find to be an extremely entitled mindset that holds the game hostage against what the devs would like to do.

I'm not arguing that it is a possible solution I'm arguing that the developer has already highlighted a glaring issue with the solution, I'm also arguing that he was simply answering a direct question rather than advocating the proposed solution.

[Tokens210]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)x ARTaco x said:

or if you pay to skip it. why is that even a freaking option then for some stuff yet not for others? is it because they want people to hit them up daily for their fix? maybe idk feels that way. you can't even queue things in the forge. nope gotta log in daily to build them formas, reactors, kubrows, etc. 

 

also

 

yes, DE is and Indie game company that only got a backer a like 3 or 4 years ago, prime access and platinum are the only ways they make money, and now with a backer they owe a portion of that money to them for keeping the lights on

 

standing caps and such raise with your mastery rank, im currently up to 22,000 daily standing cap and i forget the focus one now maybe 250k 300k

 

and yea daily stuff has always been a thing, you used to have only 4 revives every 24hrs and if you used them you needed to buy more with plat, many ppl are glad that system is gone along with the stamina system that was around back then as well

your experience with formas is your own, some people have 1000s already made and nothing to do with them, ppl like myself try and keep a bunch on deck for leveling but we run out and need to wait to craft more or buy them, which i bought a bunch during this double affinity weekend but i also traded alot of parts for plat so i spent no money to get them

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[phoenix1992]

11 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

@MagPrime please obliterate this person.

A troll Mag build is indeed a disaster. Max range, Max dura, *let's cover half of the map*

[(XBOX)x ARTaco x]

3 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

platinum are the only ways they make money

then lower the market costs to obliterate a portion of it from the economy and force the player base to buy more. just letting it sit in free player's hands is so dumb. 

 

i know i'm over simplifying but it's been on my nerves for 3 years now

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)x ARTaco x

[Tokens210]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)x ARTaco x said:

then lower the market costs to obliterate a portion of it from the economy and force the player base to buy more. just letting it sit in free player's hands is so dumb. 

 

i know i'm over simplifying but it's been on my nerves for 3 years now

forcing the players to buy more would 100 percent be bad, warframe for many years has been known as one of the best models for free to play setup where the only things you actually may need to buy are slots, everything else is obtainable with time, and now with nightwave they even give out slots

also forcing player to buy more platinum would just increase trade prices like crazy cause everyone would have more, then the people who have stack like 50k to 100k plat will be gods among us all, potentionally buying everything sold cheap to keep the prices higher which then effectively cuts free players out of trading all together, and youll end up with even more ridiculous prices on rivens then the 4500-5000plat ones i see recently

 

also its 35plat for 3 formas pre made, you said you have 1,000s from playing for years, i dont see the issue there, its like 107plat or something for 9 formas premade from the market, thats not expensive at all, the 150 for the 3 aura formas which actually werent a thing lasttime i played seems a tad high, you could just use a regular forma on aura spots back then

 

rushing things isnt required at all, you chose to do it or not, while i do believe they need to add another are you sure verification, so ppl can stop accidentally rushing things would be great, your never forced to rush it, thats you being impatient

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

A troll Mag build is indeed a disaster. Max range, Max dura, *let's cover half of the map*

That's one of the problem with that dumb frame. 

 

Rarely good frames are very scarce. I'm talking about frames that requires skill instead of nuking or doing cheap cc all over the map. I rarely use abilities. My old school is more like Doom Eternal. 

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

That's one of the problem with that dumb frame. 

 

Rarely good frames are very scarce. I'm talking about frames that requires skill instead of nuking or doing cheap cc all over the map. I rarely use abilities. My old school is more like Doom Eternal. 

I mean... it depends on your build and what you are doing.

I can't expect an Axi relic to challenge me so I don't go in expect that. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by phoenix1992