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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I don't even know what Warframe currently is supposed to be right now to be honest.

Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but it is a thing.

We all know what it is. It's the first foray into space ninja themed cookie clicker dress up games.

For such a niche market though, DE have done really well for themselves. I guess that's why Anthem failed, Bioware actually 'tried' to make it into a game, and nobody wants that.

Shots fired. 

Spoiler

I wonder, do I need to tell people I'm not entirely serious?

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:
Spoiler

I wonder, do I need to tell people I'm not entirely serious?

 

Spoiler

Trust me, you do, I have to do these disclaimers so often that it has become second nature

 

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Making enemies more dynamic is the REAL next step that needs to be taken, and NOT simply nerfing us or adding “x” levels to the same old enemies, or gating/giving immunity.

Aaand we're right back to the start. How does a dynamic AI make any difference if it's switched off or killed before it ever gets the chance to see the player?

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1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Aaand we're right back to the start. How does a dynamic AI make any difference if it's switched off or killed before it ever gets the chance to see the player?

And the cicle continues...

Btw, how many times has this thread been cleaned? I think this is the 2 time I've been in page 17.

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7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

War Frame is not the place for a challenge. War Frames are designed in a way that even the smarter A.I. gets hampered due to War Frame abilities. Do I seek challenge here? No. 

This is a 3D fashion beauty pageant captura scene digital Pokemon toy collection where I play with the intention of having fun socializing about anything in a conversation. Is nothing more than that. 

War Frame is not oriented towards high end difficulty. Asking that is the same as begging for downgrades on the war frame abilities, weapons and tenno. I don't ask for hard difficulty in here. 

 

Warframe at one time was challenging, thought not overly so, and was enjoyable. It certainly wasn't a game where the sole reason for playing was to collect the "stuff" though it unfortunately evolved into that. 

I don't think there is anyone that is asking for high end difficulty...just something that is challenging. 

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23 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Yes this , AND...Pablo is looking at the wrong side of the equation.

Nerfing the power fantasy is the EASY way out, and brand suicide.

Making enemies more dynamic is the REAL next step that needs to be taken, and NOT simply nerfing us or adding “x” levels to the same old enemies, or gating/giving immunity.

If you are going to tell me the Game’s Engine or code or...etc, etc can’t do this, then it’s time to look to the Next Gen version of Warframe.

Ok, how do you want to make them more dynamic?

Bear in mind that they're up against AoE, wall-clipping, hypothetically infinite damage + a killaura; Area-of-effect crowd control that disables enemy AI as soon as they spawn; and players who can permanently render themselves exempt from being targeted by the AI in the first place, all of which with no stopgap.

Make no mistake, there absolutely should be more dynamic enemies, and powerful abilities. But right now, the latter is so powerful that dynamic enemies simply cannot exist, because no amount of dynamism can stand up to the sheer level of uncontrolled power.

 

Nerfs to these wouldn't even necessarily require bringing things down to Destiny's level either. I don't think anybody is arguing that Warframe should be Dark Souls. The power, however, needs to be controlled so there's room for those dynamic enemies to shine. Whilst some nukes probably need to get their damage reduced or capped, others just need more meaningful build up or other stop-gaps. Others need to have it integrated into gameplay better. Saryn, for example, somebody pointed out could be made a lot better with a simple (and seemingly paradoxical) change - a damage buff. A significant one that limits her effectiveness via plague dynamics - if enemies die before they can spread her spores, then Saryn's ability to nuke entire maps is significantly reduced since her spores don't spread as far, whilst not touching her Power Fantasy since she can still kill enemies really, really fast. Since this functionally reduces her range, better Sniper enemies would then be able to more naturally counter Saryn, since they (theoretically) would be staying far away, out of reach of her DPS capabilities.

Honestly, Saryn is probably among the closest to where I think Warframe damage frames should be. She doesn't ignore gameplay, she alters it. She's at most overtuned. The problem with our current abilities is that they give power fantasy at the expense of gameplay, when the gameplay should be buying the power fantasy. 

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I have to choose between two, being obsessive compulsive or compulsive obsessive. Maybe I should prescribe my schizophrenia to better tasks such as Architecture but that's another can of worms. 

 

This Roblox game should be taken for what it is. I had fun with it and I still have fun seeing how people meme it. DE will continue doing fair for few more years and the community is quite nice in comparison to almost the 90 percent out there. 

Challenging? Well not quite. maybe a situational game where there are some sort of more interesting missions could add that pasta that the game needs. 

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37 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Nerfing the power fantasy is the EASY way out, and brand suicide.

When the power fantasy outgrows its purpose and undermines itself by trivializing the game at the point that you can literally watch Netflix while playing, then it should be addressed. And it's not the whole game, it's the outliers: Mesa, Saryn, Equinox, Limbo. Just to name the worst offenders. This should definitely be accompanied by a healthy addition of unique, varied, and powerful enemies, but those would be just as powerless, or would require senseless immunities, if the outliers are still allowed to reign supreme with no restrictions.

Power fantasy requires some sort of challenge to exist. The current feeling Warframe conveys is the same as winning in a brawl against toddlers. Who are restrained and blindfolded. I think no-one is asking for souls-level of difficulty, but at least the minimum amount that does not make you go wandering off in imaginary arguments inside your head or outright drop catatonic. 

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Hol up, I want to clarify something as someone that has past in the industry (and i loved it in spite of the crunch, low pay and so on).

Why are people forgetting the human factor? With all due my respect to Pablo, it is a lot less matter of "AI can't" and "DE can't" and much more of a case of "too much work". Nerfs on the other side usually spin around re adjusting what exists or flat out removing it.

And before I hear more of the "well DE are right, it is not possible" - Have you guys, legit not played any other games than Warframe?

Doom Eternal is extremely hard (even more so than the reboot), yet I never stopped feeling like the Doom slayer (with a bit of haphazard ammunition snatching syndrome). 
I never consider my Wow Character weak, and neither are the raid/single player encounters I do.
Final Fantasy - same deal.
Mount and Blade - don't walk into stupid, stupid.
Oni -nail biting, while still kick ass.
Witcher 2/3?
Hell, you can even say something about The Darkness 2.

 

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19 minutes ago, Mos-Eisley said:

Warframe at one time was challenging, thought not overly so, and was enjoyable. It certainly wasn't a game where the sole reason for playing was to collect the "stuff" though it unfortunately evolved into that. 

I don't think there is anyone that is asking for high end difficulty...just something that is challenging. 

 

Make design mission parameters be a bit more demanding. 

1. Rescue mission where there are more than one person to be rescued. Each of these will help you find pieces for certain key or actuator in the stage for extra reward. 

2. Interception missions could be intervened by Hek boss for a while adding a bit more stress to the battle. 

3. Teach manners to War Frames and tennos introducing two Radioactive Liches with Brammas for a certain amount of time. So they get tactical helping each other. 

4. Combine three mission types such as rescue, defection and interception in various part of the levels. 

5. Escort missions with more satisfying arenas or tile sets where two objectives are simultaneous. 

 

Just an example... DE should not be afraid to get real snarky and trolley with some of these things without being annoying. It's more fun to the mix. 

 

This capture the spirit of what many people are asking. Another user contributed these in another thread.  

Edit: 

"Higher-level Capture missions could have players Capture more than one VIP from across the map. You know how in Spy missions that if you lose all 3 data terminals, you lose the mission? Something like that.
Higher-level Exterminate missions will have a lot more mini boss-type enemies thrown around when a certain percentage of enemies is killed (like a Lynx or Hyena(s) in a Corpus mission)
Higher-level Defense missions could have you defend several objectives at the same time (imagine a game mode where there's a platoon of civilians that the Tenno are going to try and defend)
Higher-level Mobile Defense missions could act like Disruption where during time thresholds (3 minute defense, every 1 minute, for example), there's a Demolisher or Demolyst (i forget the name) that takes huge chunks out of the terminal's health "
 

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20 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Have you guys, legit not played any other games than Warframe?

Been gaming since around 2007. Pablo's assessment is accurate. Better AI won't make a difference if we can just switch it off.

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1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Been gaming since around 2007. Pablo's assessment is accurate. Better AI won't make a difference if we can just switch it off.

And in your 10+ years of gaming you have never seen games in which you have Crowd Control Abilities, yet they are challenging?

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Just now, phoenix1992 said:

And in your 10+ years of gaming you have never seen games in which you have Crowd Control Abilities, yet they are challenging?

None in which said crowd control powers could cover an entire map, ignoring terrain and line of sight, while being cheap enough in terms of resources that they can easily be kept up 100% of the time.

If you have some examples of that in a game that isn't an unbalanced mess, I would love to see them.

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Point being, games change, this game changed and will continue to change.

And where exactly did I say the game didn't or can't change? 

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1 minute ago, rodzzila said:

And where exactly did I say the game didn't or can't change? 

 

1 hour ago, rodzzila said:

Can we stop pretending or asking for Warframe to be a completely different game than it actually is? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

None in which said crowd control powers could cover an entire map, ignoring terrain and line of sight, while being cheap enough in terms of resources that they can easily be kept up 100% of the time.

If you have some examples of that in a game that isn't an unbalanced mess, I would love to see them.

Does City of Heroes count?

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5 minutes ago, rodzzila said:

And where exactly did I say the game didn't or can't change? 

Careful now, you know that's not exactly what I said.

I questioned the point of a post requesting people to stop asking for the game to be a "different" game, when a few years down the line it will be a different game anyway. It has and will continue to change. 

Trying to stop that is utterly futile.

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7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

None in which said crowd control powers could cover an entire map, ignoring terrain and line of sight, while being cheap enough in terms of resources that they can easily be kept up 100% of the time.

If you have some examples of that in a game that isn't an unbalanced mess, I would love to see them.

DMC 3-5 have stop watch timers, so does bayonetta, you could also slot bullet time if it slows down enemies more than you.

PS:  While there are abilities in Warframe that "provide cheap CC", if you are going to point out at 6+ forma builds, arcane energizes, energy pads and so on in order to provide the effect, or look at pre 80 content, this is not a very strong argument. 

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6 hours ago, Xaero said:

Would disallowing AoE stuff to go through walls and obstacles take anything away from this power fantasy? I don't think so. It would greatly benefit the gameplay though.

I just wanna say that I support this idea. One can easily pop into the game and test this and see how much more fun it is when LoS and walls break AoE.

There is a reason why I've dropped Volt, Saryn and Enox nearly completely and dont use Bramma more than in very rare scenarios. That is because I can have more fun with LoS restricted frames like Ember or Hildryn and still AoE in an acceptable and effective way. As someone that loves avalanche Frost I can say I wouldnt mind if that skill stops going through walls.

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1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

DMC 3-5 have stop watch timers, so does bayonetta, you could also slot bullet time if it slows down enemies more than you.

Those, IIRC, at least required timing on the part of the player.

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2 minutes ago, Corvid said:
3 minutes ago, rodzzila said:

And where exactly did I say the game didn't or can't change? 

 

1 hour ago, rodzzila said:

Can we stop pretending or asking for Warframe to be a completely different game than it actually is? 

 

oh, ok. So if a guy is saying he want the next FIFA or MADDEN to be a turne base game and I say be reasonable it means I'm against change? Gotcha!

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Just now, rodzzila said:

oh, ok. So if a guy is saying he want the next FIFA or MADDEN to be a turne base game and I say be reasonable it means I'm against change? Gotcha!

Well, right now you're opposing a change that would still be within the category of "Things Warframe has been over the years". I also find it interesting that you seem to be ignoring DeMonkey's response.

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Just now, Corvid said:

Those, IIRC, at least required timing on the part of the player.


Quicksilver doesn't (DMC), neither does bullet time. I think for Bayonetta you need to parry for witch time, but I don't have enough info for extended usages.

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5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Never played that one. Got any more details?

Controller archetype, had the ability to land AoE CC through walls (depending on the ability), was pretty cheap to cast and players had the ability to specialize lockdown duration, efficiency etc. 

I played it years ago, I can't speak to if it was unbalanced or not.

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