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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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Just now, phoenix1992 said:


Quicksilver doesn't (DMC), neither does bullet time. I think for Bayonetta you need to parry for witch time, but I don't have enough info for extended usages.

And what limiting factors were in place? The way you're describing it makes it sound like a consumable.

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1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

DMC 3-5 have stop watch timers, so does bayonetta, you could also slot bullet time if it slows down enemies more than you.

This is one I have plenty of experience with.

The operative point here is 'cheap enough in terms of resources' - the time stop mechanics of DMC 3 and 5 both are highly intensive on resources when used mapwide. Quicksilver style from DMC3 drains Devil Trigger gauge very quickly, giving you at most a few seconds of crowd control that you have to juggle with the benefit of healing and increased damage that Devil Trigger gets you. Meanwhile, Ragtime either only affects one enemy and their immediate surroundings, or consumes the arm on use. Plus, it has a hefty charge up. Bayonetta, meanwhile, requires either good timing to get the crowd control (you need to master dodging) or, just like DMC, consumes your magic gauge on use which you need to get those all-important torture kills or Umbral Climax in Bayo 2 (Which makes it the same as Quicksilver, honestly)

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1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

Controller archetype, had the ability to land AoE CC through walls (depending on the ability), was pretty cheap to cast and players had the ability to specialize lockdown duration, efficiency etc. 

I played it years ago, I can't speak to if it was unbalanced or not.

Cities of heroes is MMORPG, difficulties are mostly in coop massive content (raids) or specific challenge mods. 

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What are the frames that supposedly need to be nerfed? I think the OPness of the frames are being overstated. 

Equinox is powerful, but she's not deleting high end enemies easily. 

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9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is one I have plenty of experience with.

The operative point here is 'cheap enough in terms of resources' - the time stop mechanics of DMC 3 and 5 both are highly intensive on resources when used mapwide. Quicksilver style from DMC3 drains Devil Trigger gauge very quickly, giving you at most a few seconds of crowd control that you have to juggle with the benefit of healing and increased damage that Devil Trigger gets you. Meanwhile, Ragtime either only affects one enemy and their immediate surroundings, or consumes the arm on use. Plus, it has a hefty charge up. Bayonetta, meanwhile, requires either good timing to get the crowd control (you need to master dodging) or, just like DMC, consumes your magic gauge on use which you need to get those all-important torture kills or Umbral Climax in Bayo 2 (Which makes it the same as Quicksilver, honestly)


Can't say much for Bayo, but DMC is another type of fish to begin with. I am not going to mention new game + (as it's purpose is vastly different), but the managing the DT is not hard unless you go for a specifically hard run. 

This also happens in Warframe, CC falls off really quickly in endurance runs, unlike of other Memery like invisibility (ha), busted status combinations (haha), or flat out invulnerability (operator mode).  However, let me get back to the point - much of the mechanics that "make warframe trivial" are things that are not handed on a silver platter as of right now. You need to invest a lot of time, resources and formas in order to attain a frame loadout that can dish and take hits in solo post 100 content. 

Edit : Right now, as there were moments in which De totally did do that. Shadowstep, old Tonkor, Old memerax are the 3 that come on top of my head and braked the game in a bad way.

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1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Can't say much for Bayo, but DMC is another type of fish to begin with. I am not going to mention new game + (as it's purpose is vastly different), but the managing the DT is not hard unless you go for a specifically hard run. 

This is true - DT is still a relatively abundant resource. Nevertheless, it's also incredibly important, and is still scarce enough that using it frivolously is

3 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

This also happens in Warframe, CC falls off really quickly in endurance runs, unlike of other Memery like invisibility (ha), busted status combinations (haha), or flat out invulnerability (operator mode).  However, let me get back to the point - much of the mechanics that "make warframe trivial" are things that are not handed on a silver platter as of right now. You need to invest a lot of time, resources and formas in order to attain a frame loadout that can dish and take hits in solo post 100 content. 

A 2-hour survival run might not be quite as insane as some, but it's still well and truly above and beyond 'conventional' levels. Plus, whilst we don't know if this person had died at any previous points, they do not seem to be struggling, rather that they reached the end of a set time limit that they wanted to achieve.

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Just now, Loza03 said:

A 2-hour survival run might not be quite as insane as some, but it's still well and truly above and beyond 'conventional' levels. Plus, whilst we don't know if this person had died at any previous points, they do not seem to be struggling, rather that they reached the end of a set time limit that they wanted to achieve.

This is with the old combo system. Pointing it out just in order to clarify that it is in previous iteration of Warframe. It is also a build that utilizes, multiple formas, arcanes, a riven (seems irrelevant), maximized focus as well. I also assumed enough mechanical knowledge to know how to deal with the endurance LS issues, god knows how many on use gear items (he also seems to be from my old Clan - Clem Cult Clan).

So... a person in his prime in Warframe. Should he not be able to do that, and can it be replicated by anyone?

 

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11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Trying to stop that is utterly futile.

I'm not trying to stop that or even against it by that matter, the game should change and evolve, otherwise it would die.

When I say to stop pretending or asking Warframe to be a different game I didn't mean stop asking for changes. But to understand what the direction DE wants and the limitation they have too when you ask for say change. But clearly my point didn't come across.

 

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1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Well, right now you're opposing a change that would still be within the category of "Things Warframe has been over the years". I also find it interesting that you seem to be ignoring DeMonkey's response.

I'm not opposing anything, but keep reaching. Yes, let me hop in my time machine to answer a reply that came after your message first.

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1 minute ago, rodzzila said:

I didn't mean stop asking for changes.

I didn't say you did.

I clearly said your post is pointless because the game is going to change anyway. It was a completely different game 6 years ago. It'll be completely different in 6 years time. Warframe is going to be a different game regardless of what you or any of us say.

2 minutes ago, rodzzila said:

But clearly my point didn't come across.

Probably because the sentence you just typed conveying your actual point is vastly different to what you actually typed.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I didn't say you did.

I clearly said your post is pointless because the game is going to change anyway. It was a completely different game 6 years ago. It'll be completely different in 6 years time. Warframe is going to be a different game regardless of what you or any of us say.

Probably because the sentence you just typed conveying your actual point is vastly different to what you actually typed.

Unless you want to do the broken telephone game, please clear up what both of you actually mean.

 

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2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Unless you want to do the broken telephone game, please clear up what both of you actually mean.

 

Seems pretty simple to me, shrug.

1 hour ago, rodzzila said:

Can we stop pretending or asking for Warframe to be a completely different game than it actually is? 

 

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

post is pointless because the game is going to change anyway. It was a completely different game 6 years ago. It'll be completely different in 6 years time. Warframe is going to be a different game regardless of what you or any of us say.

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15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

A 2-hour survival run might not be quite as insane as some, but it's still well and truly above and beyond 'conventional' levels. Plus, whilst we don't know if this person had died at any previous points, they do not seem to be struggling, rather that they reached the end of a set time limit that they wanted to achieve.

I apologize for the second post, but don't want to caught you post edit.

Limbo's power is not only his CC. 
His rift dashing is arguably a lot more important for solo content.

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34 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What are the frames that supposedly need to be nerfed? I think the OPness of the frames are being overstated.

Well...

Equinox has a damage ability that scales endlessly and goes through walls on top of a pile of utility.

Mesa can melt anything she can get in her sights in seconds while also having a powerful defensive ability.

Saryn deals comical amounts of passive damage and applies the two most useful non-slash status effects currently in the game.

Limbo's Stasis literally turns the A.I. off for minutes at a time and due to the current energy economy can do this until the heat death of the universe.

Inaros is outrageously durable even compared to other Warframes that fall in the "tank" category.

Most other Warframes run the gamut of "Powerful but not All-powerful" to "LOL Zephyr", overall these 5 are the problem children that currently are most guilty of being tough to design around.

That's not to say other frames in the same category aren't strong, but they don't quite have the same level of impact as these 5, the defensive difference between Frost and Limbo for example (bubble comparison) is a no-contest towards Limbo despite Frost's being a solid defensive ability for example.

That's my take on the top 5 biggest issues, other frames still do have nuke power, but these have the highest "ignore the game entirely" level imo.

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22 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Let's test player awareness again.

I'm not sure if we are ready for that yet considering how hard it is to pay attention when stabbing a Kuva Larvling for many players.

(btw I liked your comment 🙂 )

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Everyone who knows the game and can put 2 and 2 together been saying this since 2014. I cant understand why DE never considered this, abilities that outright delete gameplay should never be added and especially to coop game, its one thing when you play alone but in WF it potentially ruins the game for the other 3 people -  and we had discussed it 100 times back then when Nova was a problem. But then DE only added more gameplay- ruining abilities.

And now the game is too much of a mess to fix.

 

And as for "power fantasy" argument - there is no power fantasy when you just mash 1 button to delete all the mobs or afk wait while the game plays itself, there is simply no gameplay to enjoy.

 

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1 hour ago, Aldain said:
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Trust me, you do, I have to do these disclaimers so often that it has become second nature

 

Welcome to the club. I’d make more fun threads if the mods wouldn’t  ban me 😂

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39 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What are the frames that supposedly need to be nerfed? I think the OPness of the frames are being overstated. 

It depends on who you ask, but there are quite a few ways to delete any relevant level enemy. Look at how some people approach Arbitration Defense for example, ESO, or the fact Bramma is just the old Synoid Simulor with a pleasing firing sound. It's a mixture of weapons and Warframes that create this problem. Magus Lockdown was one of the worst offenders for a long time.

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7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Well...

Equinox has a damage ability that scales endlessly and goes through walls on top of a pile of utility.

Mesa can melt anything she can get in her sights in seconds while also having a powerful defensive ability.

Saryn deals comical amounts of passive damage and applies the two most useful non-slash status effects currently in the game.

Limbo's Stasis literally turns the A.I. off for minutes at a time and due to the current energy economy can do this until the heat death of the universe.

Inaros is outrageously durable even compared to other Warframes that fall in the "tank" category.

Most other Warframes run the gamut of "Powerful but not All-powerful" to "LOL Zephyr", overall these 5 are the problem children that currently are most guilty of being tough to design around.

That's not to say other frames in the same category aren't strong, but they don't quite have the same level of impact as these 5, the defensive difference between Frost and Limbo for example (bubble comparison) is a no-contest towards Limbo despite Frost's being a solid defensive ability for example.

That's my take on the top 5 biggest issues, other frames still do have nuke power, but these have the highest "ignore the game entirely" level imo.

Everyone forgets the dj of doom. Octavia. 

She litterally does team wide buffs and turn invisible scailing infinite damage good cc and much more 

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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

It depends on who you ask, but there are quite a few ways to delete any relevant level enemy. Look at how some people approach Arbitration Defense for example or ESO. Bramma is just the Synoid Simulor with a pleasing firing sound.

But then you are starting to ask some more specific questions.

What makes something busted, actually busted and how does it tie with AI and other changes that can be done to the game.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Everyone forgets the dj of doom. Octavia. 

She litterally does team wide buffs and turn invisible scailing infinite damage good cc and much more 

True, but she's not as common (in my experience) as these others.

I didn't list her because I don't quite have enough experience of her literally turning the game off for 3 other players, though invisibility cheese can surely turn it off for 1 at least.

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15 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I apologize for the second post, but don't want to caught you post edit.

Limbo's power is not only his CC. 
His rift dashing is arguably a lot more important for solo content.

Oh, undoubtedly, and that's absolutely what I love him for. It's a much more interesting way to play him.

But the fact remains that it's an option open to him. We should try to aim to encourage the more active, interesting playstyles, rather than, well, that.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

True, but she's not as common (in my experience) as these others.

I didn't list her because I don't quite have enough experience of her literally turning the game off for 4 other players, though invisibility cheese can surely turn it off for 1 at least.

Her mallet plus stealth multiplier on her near infinite Invis is one of the worst offender 

but 

octiva takes startup. 

Something players don’t like 

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