Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, STUVash said:

Nah you're missing out if you're just looking at one thing only.
A player isn't just one warframe, that would actually be kinda fair for the enemies. It would mean we only have movement and a set of abilities. We'd be pretty weak most of the time and only a smart limited use of our powers could lead to victory.

The issue is the entire arsenal we got going. A Tenno carries so much weaponry and utilty, it's basically impossible to lose if you're giving free access to everything.
I said this in another thread regarding challenge and difficulty.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Having so many tools and freedom is fun, but it's ultra powerful too, no way enemies can counter ALL that under normal circumstances.
And it's fine, those are all power-ups you've prepared and setup. Since you have no limitations, it makes sense your preparation will help you a great deal. If it didn't, then why have it in the first place but it still make the job easier and thus discard most challenges you would have faced without all of it.

That's why mechanic driven enemies tend to be funnier. You keep the powers and you still have to use your head for some specific parts of the fight, balancing around timing, puzzle, aiming, and parkour. When I saw Profit Taker released, it became clear that DE was looking into it.

Im not denying that we are powerful. IU just dont think that we are soooo powerful that nothing can challenge us unless they completely nerf us. If enemies do enough damage and have enough defense, its been proven to be a challenge to all except the most maximized meta groups. Thats ok IMO.

[phoenix1992]

There is a way to retain the frames as they are, but also add a complexity to the game.

The "hard mode" should not take notes from endurance runs, but from arbis, Sorties and to some extend Nightmare missions.

A hard mode with no operators will already cut down severely the amount of memery people pull out considering self sustain.
No specters (or they turn hostile), will nullify cheese some "top players" use.
No max mod capacity (use 60 only, with no polarities), would also mean that you need to focus.
Blowing an alarm filling your backside with field bosses would ask of players to be less american.


However, none of those changes are considering the AI or enemy design.

[rodzzila]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I didn't say you did.

and I din't say that you did say that I did say that....so?

17 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I clearly said your post is pointless because the game is going to change anyway. It was a completely different game 6 years ago. It'll be completely different in 6 years time. Warframe is going to be a different game regardless of what you or any of us say.

So after I explain I din't say the game can't or won't change. You tell me how a post whit a point I didn't make is pointless and the game is going to change anyway , ok....

 

24 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Probably because the sentence you just typed conveying your actual point is vastly different to what you actually typed.

My OP was pointing this idea that DE can make this super engaging and good AI is delusional. How is that vastly different to what I typed?

You only reading the second part and thinking I'm against change for the game is not my problem.

[Tokens210]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

True enough, though I think most of the problem stems from the huge range on top of being able to ignore terrain that makes it a problem.

A good way to address this without breaking the ability completely would be to require line-of-sight or cap how much a single hit can add to the damage (prevents massive jumps from high power weapons without making the lower power ones worse).

yes i would say maybe put a max damage cap but if were gonna keep getting harder and harder enemies then youd want no max damage cap but you still want to make the player work to get the damage high enough to then be able to wipe a level, or atleast all the little fodder soilders

maybe test out different rates, maybe see how it is if he can only absorb 50% of allies single hit, maybe 25%, maybe get crazy and have it start at 25% and be able to climb to 50% if he falls below 50% health

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[Loza03]

5 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

But that's another thing, not tied to CC which was what OP was discussing, yet it went nowhere with "how much of the output is native to the frame" and how much is "player developed". The player in the clip you showed was already pushing a min max build.

Rift walk has barely any user input, and almost no mod scaling it is just a direct "tab shift" (mod scaling would be parkour velocity, i guess). The two ways to deal with that is either change the ability, or change how the environment reacts to it. There are already units that negate limbo's rift and I guess this is why the player picked grineer that have almost no counter play.

In terms of Limbo, I'd argue that the output isn't that player developed - Limbo has the capacity to negate his interactions with enemies innately, and that scales infinitely as it affects all levels identically. Mod scaling just makes that result easier to achieve or increases the margins for error.

Rift Walk does have user input if you plan on being any more than an invulnerable ghost, however. Granted, that can still be particularly useful in some cases, but a lot of those are also older game modes that honestly aren't too interactive to begin with (y'know, ones where doing things between point A and point B isn't beneficial to you). If you want to interact with enemy units, then they have to be able to interact with you. Minimal input and large power, but with a very large downside.

Stasis is where the problem arises, because Limbo gains the potential to also negate interactions within the rift, whereupon his interaction with enemies at all becomes minimal - turn on stasis, open cataclysm, kill everything, rinse and repeat - the enemies will be stunned due to cataclysms activation causing a stagger during the reset. Minimal input, large power, and minimal downside. Rolling guard, more ability efficiency, more energy, that's all quality of life, ultimately.

[STUVash]

il y a 13 minutes, Hypernaut1 a dit :

Im not denying that we are powerful. IU just dont think that we are soooo powerful that nothing can challenge us unless they completely nerf us. If enemies do enough damage and have enough defense, its been proven to be a challenge to all except the most maximized meta groups. Thats ok IMO.

Of course it's a challenge to all. Growing players are focusing their resources on key elements of their build, they can't afford maxing. Most of them are not even bothering with maxing pets or crafting gear items. Some of them don't even have the operator form to fix the screw ups. But those people are not complaining about difficulty yet.

They will when they get access to the whole shabam though. Like I said in my quoted post.
 

Citation

One grinner has Armor. Health. A lesser intelligence compare to the player's, a gun, and a melee weapon if you disarm him. That's it. Get on its level and you'll find enemies are rather ok.

Enemies are fine for limited plays from players, not for the Tenno that finished all quests. Just having the operator form changes so much. Since an operator gets invulnerability frames on Transference and gets invulnerable in Void Mode. On itself it gives you tons of time to save your warframe, but it also introduce new crowd control mechanics. It's even worse now with shield gate.

Say you have 1 Shield, 1 Health. You could still survive with operator form. Just hop in here when the screen glitches blue, and reposition yourself, you won't die against enemies that don't use Toxic status. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that's how powerful the operator form in itself really is. And that's just one part of your arsenal. All players can have it, it's tied to the main quests.

Players that look for a challenge are the ones that are at the top, not the ones still climbing.

Edited May 18, 2020 by STUVash

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

5 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

No max mod capacity (use 60 only, with no polarities), would also mean that you need to focus.

I’m against restricting the fact that we grinded to forma and do x y and z to our aresonal. If you’re going to limit things like mod capaticty in missions don’t allow us to expand such with forma etc from the start. Look at the Grendel missions. As they weren’t a challenge they were rather teidous 

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If enemies do enough damage

How much damage does it take to challenge Inaros?

Now inflict that damage to non-Inaros Warframes.

That's the design issue, if you make it so Inaros can't facetank things everyone else suffers because they are made of glass by comparison for the most part (though shield gating has helped with this I will admit).

So which should be designed for with enemy damage? Should they shred everything that isn't Inaros or should Inaros be able to ignore the damage other frames need to avoid?

[phoenix1992]

Just now, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’m against restricting the fact that we grinded to forma and do x y and z to our aresonal. If you’re going to limit things like mod capaticty in missions don’t allow us to expand such with forma etc from the start. Look at the Grendel missions. As they weren’t a challenge they were rather teidous 

I did not say to add it to all missions did I? And the extensive modding + additional sustain turn a CC ability into something you keybind to your mouse scroll. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I did not say to add it to all missions did I? And the extensive modding + additional sustain turn a CC ability into something you keybind to your mouse scroll. 

But that would turn warframe into a more caster heavy game that while I don’t mind. Personally dosent fit the flavor of warframe imo. I play bdo for that and while I do believe if implented correctly dosent really work on paper with the high action high.mobility of wf

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

There's two main things they need to consider

What people play for - the power fantasy/challenge.

What people find challenging - tanks/ enemy numbers/ enemies that disable or are immune to abilities/ enemies that destroy objectives.

 

For me, I play for the power and enjoy mowing down enemies with other players. I don't mind a challenge but as MHW proves with me I don't find tanky enemies challenging, I just find them boring. On the other hand strength in numbers is usually the challenge for me, combine that with the odd somewhat tanky commander/player spawning more enemies and that's my challenge.

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

But that would turn warframe into a more caster heavy game that while I don’t mind. Personally dosent fit the flavor of warframe imo. I play bdo for that and while I do believe if implented correctly dosent really work on paper with the high action high.mobility of wf

If you have limited energy sources and don't run 75% efficiency you are less likely to be a "Caster".

I am not sure what is the flavor of Warframe, outside of RNG grind fiesta, and I don't think that the topic is "What is warframe in a nutshell".

Considering the high action mobility.... with the fact that majority of the players don't run parkour mods, they would not be effected of not being able to slide them in anyway. High action - nothing is stopping you from shooting, especially weapons that are meant to be sprayed around.

[ranks21]

when will you all comprehend that warframe (a power fantasy game) can never be "balanced". I have said it time and time again, balancing warframe will cost revenue. DE can only introduce more power to RETAIN the masses. they have seen drops on a massive scale when they changed anything too drastically that ultimately burned their profits. the game is all about making money never about balance.

2: it was never about a pvp-esque type of game nor DMC, or DS or R6 or COD, it has always meant to be what it said it was "A POWER FANTASY" where a warframe is so powerfull (void energy) when used can destroy a planet or stop time. eg: Nova/ limbo. that is a base description of the warframes identity.

3: nerfing only detracts from what the game is and has always been about, POWER. lore or whatever you wanna call it, is just a cut scene to introduce another semblance of how that void POWER was or can be used.

4: weak players always whining and will always whine when their ego gets crushed, it has always been so in any type of shooting or competitive game when the other player/s are more astute than they are.

5: so here we are, 5 yrs later since DE crumbled to the whiners and went on a nerfing rampage, without end, and still it hasn't solved anything. the whiners are still advocating for nerfs (envy)  when it has always been said whiners incapability.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, Corvid said:

Aaand we're right back to the start. How does a dynamic AI make any difference if it's switched off or killed before it ever gets the chance to see the player?

The original manic was the start of something.  Kept you on your toes.  Challenged you.  Still felt like Warframe.  Fast.  Fun.  Deadly.  Could perform finishers...was the OG Lich but not slow or plodding.

 

You have to think outside the box a bit.

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

2: it was never about a pvp-esque type of game nor DMC, or DS or R6 or COD, it has always meant to be what it said it was "A POWER FANTASY" where a warframe is so powerfull (void energy) when used can destroy a planet or stop time. eg: Nova/ limbo. that is a base description of the warframes identity.

 

I am pretty sure that I was getting my backside handed to me in t4 keys solo before operators came out. Even more with the old stamina system. But sure, game was always about power creep.
 

2 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

3: nerfing only detracts from what the game is and has always been about, POWER. lore or whatever you wanna call it, is just a cut scene to introduce another semblance of how that void POWER was or can be used.

 

I do not agree with the reasoning behind refusing a nerf due to point 2.
 

4 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

4: weak players always whining and will always whine when their ego gets crushed, it has always been so in any type of shooting or competitive game when the other player/s are more astute than they are.

 

Where are you seeing people "whine" about their egos in this specific thread?  Warframe is also not competitive game in any capacity in the current format either, and I would not put it down as pure shooter either.

 

[GreyDeath789]

So there is a super smart AI....sweet...challenging content...

On 2020-05-17 at 4:26 PM, Jarriaga said:

Imagine a world in which every single enemy is controlled by a deepmind AI (The StarCraft AI designed to beat pro-players), so the smartest AI you can have or imagine in every single enemy.

But instead we get "well DE designed warframes to be so powerful no AI can defeat the all powerful 'press 4' ability"

On 2020-05-17 at 4:26 PM, Jarriaga said:

You'll be able to just press 4 and just freeze them in place and shoot them in the face. There's absolutely nothing the smartest AI can do if you can crowd-control them forever. So how do you counter that? You have to nerf those things.

LOL...ROFLMAO....yea...this is telling...DE thinks the "deepmind AI" can't defeat 'press 4' so just nerf it. But if it is a 'deepmind AI' couldn't the enemy develop tactics to counter 'press 4'?

Turn the tables...give the enemies this 'press 4' ability to "freeze them in place" (them being Tenno)...do you think Tenno would not learn to adapt to the 'press 4' ability?

Oh no...it is a 'press 4' enemy....*starts wall running to avoid being frozen in place*...need to  kill from range *pulls out sniper rifle*...or sneak up undetected *invis or approach quietly from behind*, etc.

Yep, the only solution is to nerf things...since we don't really have a "deepmind AI"...

Too bad we can't have better AI in Warframe...instead all we are going to get is better nerf bats.

 

[DeMonkey]

46 minutes ago, rodzzila said:

and I din't say that you did say that I did say that....so?

So you've lost the plot, entirely.

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

LOL...ROFLMAO....yea...this is telling...DE thinks the "deepmind AI" can't defeat 'press 4' so just nerf it. But if it is a 'deepmind AI' couldn't the enemy develop tactics to counter 'press 4'?

The thing is, that enemy will only be alive for around 2 seconds or the moment it steps in the range of Limbo, Mesa or Equinox. One thing is the enemy's behavior/tactics, and another vastly different thing is the enemy's reaction time and abilities. Is the enemy allowed to move 50 meters in a second to get out of their range? And is the map even big enough to allow it? Is this enemy allowed to go invisible, and if so, is it immune to nuking while invisible? 

So yes, more abilities can help. But only if they can stay alive long enough to cast them, and people already hate ability-immune enemies such as Arbitration drones because of this. They are called cheese difficulty or "inorganic"/fake difficulty.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The thing is, that enemy will only be alive for around 2 seconds or the moment it steps in the range of Limbo, Mesa or Equinox. One thing is the enemy's behavior, and another vastly different thing is the enemy's reaction time and abilities. Is the enemy allowed to move 50 meters in a second to get out of their range? Is it allowed to go invisible, and if so, is it immune to nuking while invisible? 

So yes, more abilities can help. But only if they can stay alive long enough to cast them.

That's when tactics and ELITE Space Marine's toys come in. But that is a AI tactics and a gaming engine capabilities problem. There are ways Elite Space marine can make a WF hurt and bleed. DE just isn't using thier imagination about what a Elite Space Marine is.

DE would rather dumb down, nerf frames into the ground to balance us with the stupid bewildered lemming tactics the AI currently has. They don't want to rise to occasion and make combat engaging. Because I believe they don't know how or thier dated ancient gaming engine won't let them. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

That's when tactics and ELITE Space Marine's toys come in. But that is a AI tactics and a gaming engine capabilities problem. There are ways Elite Space marine can make a WF hurt and bleed. DE just isn't using thier imagination about what a Elite Space Marine is.

DE would rather dumb down, nerf frames into the ground to balance is with the stupid bewildered lemming tactics the AI currently is. They don't want to rise to occasion and make combat engaging. Because I believe they don't know how. 

And when the abilities cover the entire map, so they're affected as soon as they spawn?

[GreyDeath789]

19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The thing is, that enemy will only be alive for around 2 seconds or the moment it steps in the range of Limbo, Mesa or Equinox. One thing is the enemy's behavior/tactics, and another vastly different thing is the enemy's reaction time and abilities. Is the enemy allowed to move 50 meters in a second to get out of their range? And is the map even big enough to allow it? Is this enemy allowed to go invisible, and if so, is it immune to nuking while invisible? 

So yes, more abilities can help. But only if they can stay alive long enough to cast them, and people already hate ability-immune enemies such as Arbitration drones because of this. They are called cheese difficulty or "inorganic"/fake difficulty.

50 meters in a second? Manics? Those abilities listed were of course warframe abilities...yet some enemies have some of them...it isn't about the ability as much as the use of them by an "AI"...

Is Ivara immune to nuking while invisible?

Is Rhino allowed to dash forward in a second? Excal? All operators?

People "hating" enemies isn't the discussion...the discussion is nerfing weapons/warframes instead of giving enemies "deepmind AI"...it is easier to nerf than it is to develop the AI...so path of least resistance wins. Not for the better in the eyes of many tho...

Edited May 18, 2020 by GreyDeath789

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And when the abilities cover the entire map, so they're affected as soon as they spawn?

That's a spawn and a ancient map design problem. Also a gaming engine problem. 

Space Marine's should pop smoke, throw flash bangs, drop in on top of you without you knowing they were there, set booby traps. The booby traps in this game are a joke. So is the environment we fight in. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 minute ago, GreyDeath789 said:

People "hating" enemies isn't the discussion...the discussion is nerfing weapons/warframes instead of giving enemies "deepmind AI"...it is easier to nerf than it is to develop the AI...so path of least resistance wins. Not for the better in the eyes of many tho...

This✓

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

That's when tactics and ELITE Space Marine's toys come in. But that is a AI tactics and a gaming engine capabilities problem. There are ways Elite Space marine can make a WF hurt and bleed. DE just isn't using thier imagination about what a Elite Space Marine is.

You've been saying that since yesterday with no clarification or context as to what an Elite Space Marine even is in practical terms. Is it a Grineer that is invulnerable to abilities? Because if it is, say so. We understand nothing with the generic "Elite Space Marine" term. 

6 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

DE would rather dumb down, nerf frames into the ground to balance is with the stupid bewildered lemming tactics the AI currently is. They don't want to rise to occasion and make combat engaging. Because I believe they don't know how. 

It's possible that they don't know how. But it's also possible that you are envisioning something that is not realistic within the design of the game. I mean, you can't even define your own "Elite Space Marine" concept, likely because you won't be able to answer what will happen if they run into Limbo when Cataclysm is active:

- Enemy bullets won't go through it.

- If the enemy gets inside or even touches the edge, it gets frozen by stasis.

Answer: Frozen and unable to move unless it's immune to abilities, like an Arbitration drone.

And at that point, you don't even need better AI or tactics because it's a passive ability taking effect even at level 1. That's not better enemy behavior.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Loza03]

Just now, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

That's a spawn and a ancient map design problem. Also a gaming engine problem. 

Space Marine's should pop smoke, throw flash bangs, set booby traps. The booby traps in this game are a joke. So is the environment we fight in. 

We already HAVE flash banging enemies. Bursa units.

Last time I checked, they're not too tough, getting affected by CC just the same.