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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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Just now, kwlingo said:

This would be the fix. If even the Bramma cannot one shot them any longer most players would extract.

The problem it would cause is that LONG before the Bramma stopped being effective everything below it on the power scale would be as well.

This was a problem before the recent armor adjustments as well, weapons were lumped into MR fodder because they couldn't even keep up with 100-150 Grineer, hek, until recently Grineer were the only thing that could survive long enough against most things to even test the power of weapons.

Exponential scaling didn't make things harder, it made things useless.

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24 minutes ago, ChaoticEdge said:

I only find that just twiddle thinking about it why would you put a cap on warframe when warframe was pose to be most powerful machine and being that actually can destroy whole army of fleets and the children could of go atomic bomb level if they actually gain enough power from the void for untold to be and unsaid to be in stories to think by.

Because lore follows gameplay, not the other way around.

In God of War, Kratos can be killed by simple mortals. In Mortal Kombat, Raiden, Kronika, Jason, and Shinnok can be killed by Sonya. In Dragon Ball games, Yamcha can defeat Ultra Instinct Goku. In Pokémon, you can somehow capture Arceus, which is God. In Halo, Master Chief experiences recoil from firing a puny pistol. In Bioshock, plasmids and vigor are available like candy and caused the falls or their civilization due to overuse, yet no enemy is seen using them against you (Other than bosses).

The game's lore is second to the gameplay in any game. Not the other way around. This is why the "videogame logic" meme exists, and it is a terrible argument. 

And in WF's case, the power machine lore actually gets in the way of engaging gameplay, as acknowledged by the actual makers of the game.

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29 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

Power Fantasy can still easily exist in combination with balance and challenge.

In fact, challenge is one of the most significant components of power fantasy. It all comes down to psychology, and in particular, the fact that humans psychologically SUCK at estimates for abstract ideas.

Let me ask you a question: How strong are the Grineer? As in, how capable are they as fighters? They're dumb, weak and useless right? Well wrong. Judging by their in-game feats and tech, a single base's worth of Grineer would probably be able to quite effortlessly dunk on any modern army at the same level i.e. their infantry massively outperforms ours. They wear several centimeters worth of armour in places and barely flinch, they can carry half a ton of equipment as a result, survive in damn near any hostile environment with no reduction in capabilities, and wield weapons with several times the kick any modern small arms weapon has. The regular Grineer Lancer could probably take on Master Chief in Halo, and win without much of a hitch. The Grineer are, without any fraction of a doubt, super soldiers.

That doesn't sound right does it? It doesn't line up with your lived experience playing the game, where they're barely able to scratch you. The Grineer are weaklings, right? At least, compared to you they are.

 

This is what is known in psychology as an 'Anchoring Heuristic', or in Wrestling terms, putting them 'over'. Simply put, if the brain doesn't have a hard evidence (i.e. lived experience) of something, it at most can work it out in a tier system. This is also why you see things compared to football fields or oil tankers, because it's a lived experience that puts a physical measure to abstract numbers. The same applies to fictional measures of strength. Even though the average Stormtrooper actually is most likely a full-on elite soldier that could kill any one of us easily as was the backbone to a literal galactic empire, we think of them as incompetent, bumbling fools because they are in comparison to the heroes. The same applies to the enemies we fight in video games, with the added element of there being a lived experience in the difficulty of those enemies.

Here's the kicker - if the enemies are too easy, too mindless to overcome, too far down on the Anchoring Heuristic pecking order, then that also calls into question our own abilities. Because just as their strength is established by comparing it to the player, the players is established by comparing them to the enemies. Because, well, how strong is a Tenno? We can't clock one in the face to find out, so we have to run off what we see in game. And if all they can do is beat up useless, weak enemies, than they aren't all that strong, are they? The power fantasy is anchored to how strong the enemies are, so in order to maintain that same level of fantasy that we're incredibly powerful, the enemies must also be powerful.

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3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That doesn't sound right does it? It doesn't line up with your lived experience playing the game, where they're barely able to scratch you. The Grineer are weaklings, right? At least, compared to you they are.

...Actually, the Grineer are the faction I hate the most, cause they have a tendency to give me trouble thanks to not dying instantly.

To give you an example of MY power fantasy, I've been playing ESO the most this week, and most of the zones alternate between Grineer and Corrupted. I think Zones 5 and 7 are Infested, and Zone 8 is Corpus. My favorite zone, and the one where I felt the most satisfied playing was Zone 5, the Derelict level with Invested all around. Mirage's Explosive Legerdemain clears the room. That's my power fantasy. Everything dies as soon as they spawn. Everything else makes me feel week, and that just annoys me. Cause I see all those numbers flying around the screen yet they have zero effect, as enemies are still moving, still attacking, still being a nuisance. That's not power fantasy, that's just being weak. So I want more power until the Grineer and the Corrupted fall like the Infested. That's my ultimate power fantasy. That's the most relaxing thing for me to do and accomplish in this game. Everything else is an abject failure.

I know not many people see it that way. But that's the way I've been playing this game for the past 6 years. That's WHY I've been playing this game for the past 6 years. Everything that takes power away from me annoys me and makes me feel like a failure for not being able to reach that power fantasy. So, you know, I'm fine with hard and ultra hard modes being dark souls or whatever, but I am completely against nerfing me in the normal mode for the sake of those two.

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15 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The problem it would cause is that LONG before the Bramma stopped being effective everything below it on the power scale would be as well.

This was a problem before the recent armor adjustments as well, weapons were lumped into MR fodder because they couldn't even keep up with 100-150 Grineer, hek, until recently Grineer were the only thing that could survive long enough against most things to even test the power of weapons.

Exponential scaling didn't make things harder, it made things useless.

This is perfect, its what DE wants. They never intended for players to camp in missions. If players want to camp and not be able to kill anything let them have their fun. 🙂

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The tip to make enemies OP, just put a class that remove abilities or revive enemies, on TD2 we have a dude that, revive enemies, warframe need more elite unique enemies, not nerfing our stuff, ur guys also need stop ask for nerfing enemies. U want a good example how the enemies make S#&$, Leech energy eximus guy.   

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)SaturnDaniel:

The tip to make enemies OP, just put a class that remove abilities or revive enemies, on TD2 we have a dude that, revive enemies, warframe need more elite unique enemies, not nerfing our stuff, ur guys also need stop ask for nerfing enemies. U want a good example how the enemies make S#&$, Leech energy eximus guy.   

Ironicly we have a unit that revives itself if you not destory his cocoon object, sadly those enemies only appear in the Arlo Nighwave new bossnode and not anywhere else.

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15 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Mirage's Explosive Legerdemain clears the room. That's my power fantasy. Everything dies as soon as they spawn. Everything else makes me feel week, and that just annoys me.

This is just... creepy... That you're talking about Elite Sanctuary Onslaught makes it even more so...

Why don't you just go kill stuff on Mars or something?

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1 minute ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Why don't you just go kill stuff on Mars or something?

Cause there aren't enough spawns on Mars. That's kinda why I'm playing ESO even though I get annoyed at most zones, the spawn numbers are amazing and when I run into a room zone where Mirage can just obliterate everything as soon as they spawn, that feeling of success is incredible. I really would be playing on Mars or anywhere on the starchart if they had the spawn numbers of ESO, but sadly, 1-2 enemies a room or something low like that as it is in the early levels just isn't satisfying enough.

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Ok. Smarter AI isn't enough for high difficulty. Why are we even talking about that, though? Smarter AI not being sufficient for high difficulty isn't a reason to not have smarter AI. The game would be better if the AI were smarter, whether we can freeze them or not. I don't disagree that abilities need to be nerfed, but the game also needs smarter AI. And, no, smarter AI doesn't automatically mean hivemind AI. I don't care about high difficulty in Warframe. What I do care about is that the core gameplay is boring, imo, because the AI is terrible, the animations are terrible (making the gameplay pretty meh), and the map design is mostly bad as well (from texture work to the lighting to the layout of the tilesets).

And smarter AI doesn't mean AI that can react to your every move. It means AI that behaves more aggressively, moves faster (actually sprints to cover), pushes up on the the player instead of randomly meandering around, reacts to some actions you take (like have special behaviors when they're stunned or blinded or whatever), and has a lot more tools to use (grenades, special abilities, unique weapons they occasionally switch to, etc.).

I play Battlefront 2 a lot (the EA version), particularly its Instant Action mode, and the AI in that game isn't necessarily "smarter" than the AI in Warframe. However, they are designed to behave aggressively and they are designed to use different tools/abilities as part of the game's class system. Each class (the same classes players use in multiplayer) have its own set of abilities (some are grenades, some are buffs to teammates, some are unique weapons like miniguns, rocket launchers, and high firerate submachine guns, some are defensive items like shields). The AI use these abilities aggressively. There aren't long pauses where they just sit there waiting to be killed. They do as much damage to players as players can do to them. In objective based modes, they actually play the objective. The point is, the AI has a lot more diverse tools to use than those in Warframe and it is faster paced and more aggressive than the AI in Warframe, and it makes a difference.

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What I see as the real truth, is that players that want difficulty are lying to themselves. If you really want to play against smarter enemies that can kill you just as easily as you kill them, play pvp. I'm not saying conclave is in any kind of good place right now, but that doesn't change the fact that the "difficulty" is as realistically hard as you're probably ever  going to find in this game without it negatively affecting a large portion of the rest of the game. I could be wrong though, just my 2 cents.

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6 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

If you really want to play against smarter enemies that can kill you just as easily as you kill them, play pvp.

Aaand you missed what was actually being said.

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15 minutes ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

This is just... creepy... That you're talking about Elite Sanctuary Onslaught makes it even more so...

Why don't you just go kill stuff on Mars or something?

The guy you quoted to is a “meta addict”. These type of Warframe players only cares about killing as much enemy as possible and as fast as possible. Everytime DE nerfs something you know that these players will show their angry faces.

I am fine if DE wants to add anti cheese tactics. But please don’t make it completely nullify the tactic, because it kills variety. Here is a few example of cheap anti cheese tactic

1. Bullet Sponges

2. Warframe ability immunity (DE is considering to remove them)

3. Status immunity (they are taking that away)

4. AI Aimbot (used to be a problem before Warframe Revised).

 

 

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1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Aaand you missed what was actually being said.

No, I offered what I feel is the only realistic solution. Not one single thing that has been proposed will solve the overall problem of difficulty in this game. Chasing balance between power fantasy and proper difficulty in a game like Warframe is a fools' errand, and the sooner the band-aid is ripped off and everyone comes to terms with this fact, the better. I'm not against either or, but for the survival of an ongoing game a choice must be made between one or the other, and unapologetically so. Design by committee (in this case, community input) in cases like this, never ends well.

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1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

1. Bullet Sponges

2. Warframe ability immunity (DE is considering to remove them)

3. Status immunity (they are taking that away)

-thousand yard stare-

The unholy trinity...that which gave birth to the Wolf of Saturn Six.

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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

It seems that at least Pablo finds it interesting to have enemies make you fail the mission if they can't get to you instead. For example, by having enemies attack life support capsules in survival so you can't just camp in one place, as he mentions just a few minutes later.

It's probably been said plenty before by others but I've said it as well: probably the best form of difficulty for a power fantasy is to target the mission, not the player.

In Disruption, for example, the regular fodder enemies are still quite underlevelled for the average point at which objectives aren't feasibly defensible. There's always a huge gap between the objective threat, in the Demolyst, and everything else that goes after the Tenno. And, IMO, that works, especially with the conduit modifiers that tweak how that objective defence goes.

Of course, that does probably mean that some nerfs may be required. Some abilities may shut down enemy offense, even against the objective, so wholly that the only counter is "drop a nullifier on their head". I'm pretty sure almost everybody would find that kind of counter cheap. But the amount things would have to be reined in for that versus how far things would have to be reined in for players themselves to be threatened is the difference between a puddle and the Mariana's Trench.

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i feel like even DE doesnt know what they want lol

our characters are supposed to be powerful, that was part of the draw of the game, 4 space ninjas can take on the world, like hell yeah

yet back in the day as ill call it we had weapons that were basically required to do higher level stuff easier, like soma prime, tigris prime etc etc

we had ppl complain about only having a fist full of weapon being viable at higher level content while we simultaneously had ppl complain about ppl running those "meta" weapons on lower level content melting everything

so what did DE do, they nerfed the "meta" weapons which made things worse, now instead of 1 or 2 players running them in higher level endless types everyone need to run them while they still melt lower level stuff and the issue with other weapons not being strong enough would be addressed later

how was that issue addressed, Rivens, they literally gave the ability to add mods that would have required 3 or 4 slots into 1 single slot like how was that going to fix anything and even if it did, giving the old meta weapons lower chance to get them while also giving them a stat nerf meant we just have new meta weapons now that require rivens

 

how bout garas glass shield nerf, she was proposed as a defense based warframe, S#&$ home girl held back and killed an old ediolon herself in cetus, according to their own lore

but players were complaining that her shield made defense/mobile defense/vip missions unfun as you were no longer tethered to staying at the objective anymore, since lower level enemies couldnt break the shield, but higher level enemies could, nulls could, heavy gunner could, eximus could, kuva could and ospreys would actually stack on eachother to go over it or glitch thru it, the issue was she was built based on later game content so starter level enemies couldnt break it until you stayed long enough for higher ones to show

first of all thats fantastic, who wants to keep following a vip that keeps running towards danger, or be trapped to only really be in this small area on a big map tileset

secondly thats an easy fix which they actually did later but not for the same reason, the fix, add more enemies that can break it, which they did with Amalgam enemies which can show up on lower levels as well now

but no the actual official fix was tie garas glass shield directly to her health so now almost every enemy can break it, and unless they changed it since lasttime i played, leaving her shard shield uncapped so you can just keep whiping small glass shields and stacking damage till gara has an area of effect around her dealing like 80 to 100k damage

 

were stuck in a state of perpetual up and down lol

 

none of what i said above was me totally disagreeing, i actually do agree just not with the our characters should be nerfed to the ground part, i believe were supposed to be strong, especially 4 together, or 1 alone if set to solo mode, and thats one of my main enjoyment of the game 4 vs the world for the win, we might also die but were gonna win lol

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2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

The guy you quoted to is a “meta addict”.

If I were a meta addict, I would be using Saryn and Bramma or something like that. I use Mirage and Cassowar, cause I like having fun. Enjoying killing things as fast as possible doesn't mean I'm numbers driven. I'm just a sadistic mofo who expresses that sadism in the game rather than in real life.

Plus, as I said above, if the number of spawns on Mars were equal to the number of spawns on ESO, I'd be playing Mars, no hesitation. I don't care about the meta or whatever, I just enjoy seeing a crapton of fools being turned to ribbons as fast and as fun as possible.

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6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

-thousand yard stare-

The unholy trinity...that which gave birth to the Wolf of Saturn Six.

Funny enough, Pablo said in the interview that the Wolf was his doing.

5 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

.... Grineer develop nullifier grenades. Check mate Pablo!

Which they'll need to be able to throw over 50 meters away considering Pablo acknowledged overextended and reach are used. If it spawns within Saryn's, Mesa's or Equinox's range, the Grineer Grenadier is doomed on the spot.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Funny enough, Pablo said in the interview that the Wolf was his doing.

I haven't had time to watch it, but...does it seem like he learned that was a mistake?

...Even if he hasn't please lie to me and tell me he has, I really need it.

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7 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Some abilities may shut down enemy offense, even against the objective, so wholly that the only counter is "drop a nullifier on their head".

Instead of complete nullification. How about ability resistance instead? Say a special unit that is meant to be a difficult to stop spawns in the room and you cast limbo stasis on it. Instead of complete stop, the enemy is extremely slowed that gains speed overtime until the ability ends. You can throw in diminishing returns on subsequent cast to the mix
 

There you just made CC an alternative option instead of the usual overkill damage buff stacking to take them down.

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5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

If I were a meta addict, I would be using Saryn and Bramma or something like that. I use Mirage and Cassowar, cause I like having fun. Enjoying killing things as fast as possible doesn't mean I'm numbers driven. I'm just a sadistic mofo who expresses that sadism in the game rather than in real life.

Plus, as I said above, if the number of spawns on Mars were equal to the number of spawns on ESO, I'd be playing Mars, no hesitation. I don't care about the meta or whatever, I just enjoy seeing a crapton of fools being turned to ribbons as fast and as fun as possible.

Focuing on BIG numbers and dmg. take the term.  its ok mate. You and I are different types of players. 

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6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I haven't had time to watch it, but...does it seem like he learned that was a mistake?

...Even if he hasn't please lie to me and tell me he has, I really need it.

He said it happened by mistake. He was tuning the Wolf for 30 seconds solo using some weapons (Not clarified, but I'd presume top weapons) with 5 mods. So it seems the problem was multiplayer scaling. He hopes this won't happen again now that test clusters are a thing.

For reference, he mentions this exactly at the 1 hour mark.

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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

He was tuning the Wolf for 30 seconds solo using some weapons (Not clarified, but I'd presume top weapons)

...Thank god they made test clusters.

Because GOOD GOOGLY MOOGLY WHAT KIND OF TESTING LOGIC IS THAT?

But I'm relieved that sponge wasn't the intention.

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