Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

I was more leaning towards the smart AI surprise attacking Mesa from above

Yeah, because that's something they can do in just any map, right?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yeah, because that's something they can do in just any map, right?

Are their cielings?

If no, manics could use mimic tech to disguise themselves as a chest wait till you run by, flash bang and down you. Come on this is easy. 

Especially with making CC LoS, like it should be. And getting rid of all hit scan, period. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Are their cielings? If no, manics could use mimic tech to disguise themselves as a chest wait till you run by, flash bang and down you. Come on this is easy. 

Dude, you're making stuff up as you go. I'm going to drop it here since it is clear to me you are not interested in a serious conversation.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

Dude, you're making stuff up as you go. I'm doing to drop it here since it is clear to me you are not interested in a serious conversation.

Dude, it's an example. 

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Are their cielings?

If no, manics could use mimic tech to disguise themselves as a chest wait till you run by, flash bang and down you. Come on this is easy. 

So, basically, make an enemy that's a mimic, can teleport and stunlock you in order to counter CC that you already have to nerf to be line of sight.

Yeah, sounds like fun. /s

Edited May 19, 2020 by Loza03

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So, basically, make an enemy that's a mimic, can teleport and stunlock you in order to counter CC that you already have to nerf to be line of sight.

Yeah, sounds like fun. /s

Lol yup. Keeps you moving eh? Or stealthy. But alas WF has a huge stealth problem too.  Amongst many many others. 

Nah it's easier to nerf everything into the ground to fighting lemmings that don't even know when they are literally running past a Warframe, they are to busy playing lemming.. Lol

Edited May 19, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So, basically, make an enemy that's a mimic, can teleport and stunlock you in order to counter CC that you already have to nerf to be line of sight.

Yeah, sounds like fun. /s

This is what I imagine with that description, except, you're the demon:

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Jarriaga

[MagPrime]

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yes. 

Controllers were insane...But I wouldn't necessarily have called them OP either.

Excellent Control, mitigation, and sustained dmg but typically short on burst dps (except fire type trollers iirc)

But the enemies had DR to many forms of CC over time and natural hp regen.

Which patch though?  Storm was pretty OP for a bit there a well but that got patched in, erg, year...3...?

[Loza03]

Just now, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Lol yup. Keeps you moving eh? Or stealthy. But alas WF has a huge stealth problem too.  Amongst many many others. 

At that point, you've killed the power fantasy anyway. Because that's not an enemy - that's a horror monster. Horror is the antithesis of power fantasy.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

At that point, you've killed the power fantasy anyway.

Nah I think it can be done right while keeping the power fantasy. The problem is WF is horribly dated while running on a decade old spaghetti code with a decade old engine. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Loza03]

Just now, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Nah I think it can be done right while keeping the power fantasy. The problem is WF is horribly dated while running on a decade old spaghetti code. 

Not with what you've suggested, I'm afraid.

Now, I do believe harder content and power fantasy are not only compatible, but indeed, harder content would enhance that power fantasy. But alas, the amount of buffs that enemies would need to be even able to faintly contend with the power we currently possess makes it mutually exclusive. We must be brought down.

[L4D3M]

If you want a challenge, turn off Warframe. If you want a power fantasy, draw a stick figure beating up another stick figure.

But seriously, this problem started setting long ago when power creep did. Warframe was a smart enough game to start before gradually becoming a no-brainer over the years with giant AoEs cutting workloads and rousing suspicion, then coptering exploits that push the move past its intended use being more discovered, then bullet-jumping deleting the only parkour gameplay left (which is the only gameplay Warframe has ever had to begin with). Game's maxed out on everything and requires no effort now. It is literally infeasible to come up with a remotely sense-making thing to step above and challenge players now without also making it nerf what you can do, and you can still come up with nerf excuses specifically for Hard Mode. It is an absolute requirement.

A personal favorite of mine other than parkour is Stamina bars and timed counters. We don't have a block button anymore, but we have an attack button we could time for better effect vs certain enemy animations instead of spam all the time. Smaller dash-dodges would also make melee fights look good.

Beginning and middle of Hard Mode mission: Nerf Warframes.

Very end of mission: Turn Warframe powers back on and have them battle against time-space warping demi-god enemies.

Edited May 19, 2020 by L4D3M

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

19 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Not with what you've suggested, I'm afraid.

Now, I do believe harder content and power fantasy are not only compatible, but indeed, harder content would enhance that power fantasy. But alas, the amount of buffs that enemies would need to be even able to faintly contend with the power we currently possess makes it mutually exclusive. We must be brought down.

CC being LoS is a nerf, ok. That said not doing anything to enemy AI makes any nerf to WF powers meaningless. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

Smaller dash-dodges would also make melee fights look good.

Strafing? Yes please

[844448]

8 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

As everyone says “ the forum and reddit are a small vocal community of the playerbase”

But when they spend their time making a forum account to complain instead of communicating over something with people in game they play with, I don't think they're the type who can communicate so when things are at stake, I can see the toxicity rising fast

[Loza03]

Just now, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

CC being LoS is a nerf ok. That said not doing anything to enemy AI makes any nerf to WF powers meaningless. 

Not nerfing WF powers makes any buffs to enemy AI meaningless.

Either way, this is a multiple-step process. But, since enemies have to be designed around players and there are at least some well designed enemies around that just aren't getting noticed under all the power creep, starting with the nerfs makes the most sense. Bring the player level down to a point where dynamic enemies can work, then make those enemies.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

But when they spend their time making a forum account to complain instead of communicating over something with people in game they play with, I don't think they're the type who can communicate so when things are at stake, I can see the toxicity rising fast

A majority of accounts on here don’t just complain it’s actually a vocal minority of a vocal minority that’s is just complaints. When you have both sides dismissing each other and refusing to see a compromise or being outride dismissive on ones opinions on both sides of the spectrum toxicity breeds. Your statement assumes that people who are not satisfied with the currrent state of the game and have complains are just complaining and that’s it. Further fueling the toxcitity 

[844448]

Just now, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

A majority of accounts on here don’t just complain it’s actually a vocal minority of a vocal minority that’s is just complaints. When you have both sides dismissing each other and refusing to see a compromise or being outride dismissive on ones opinions on both sides of the spectrum toxicity breeds. Your statement assumes that people who are not satisfied with the currrent state of the game and have complains are just complaining and that’s it. Further fueling the toxcitity 

When I see some accounts made just to complain like railjack navigation system where anyone can start, I see it as a problem. Sure, it's a problem that anyone can do it without other player's consent but when they spend their time and energy to complain here instead of trying to communicate in game, I see that account as a potential toxic player

[GreyDeath789]

56 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

They can't use what the AI hasn't been given unlimited access to. A Manic doesn't move anywhere close 50 meters at once. Nor are there many maps (With Manics) that allow that. And even if it could move 20 meters per second and move 40 over 2 seconds, they have cooldowns, so any cooldown would need to be removed in order for that to happen.

With that limit removed, you now you have a teleporting enemy doing this to you:

That's also a topic Pablo touched in the interview: Why enemies have hard limits on how they can use their abilities.

So it is just nerf the players abilities instead of working to make the enemies more difficult/complex as a solution? Sounds about right for the direction DE has been going for a while now...having the DE developer in the video confirm it doesn't make this a welcome decision but should at least let the player community manage expectations when it comes to the 'difficulty' of the game moving forward.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

12 minutes ago, 844448 said:

When I see some accounts made just to complain like railjack navigation system where anyone can start, I see it as a problem. Sure, it's a problem that anyone can do it without other player's consent but when they spend their time and energy to complain here instead of trying to communicate in game, I see that account as a potential toxic player

But do you know that players thought process or issues. You seeing something as a simple get around like everyone else does not dismiss the fact that something could not be enjoyable to others marking them off as toxic leads to no progressive discussion and furthermore provides no beneficial conversation. 

[GreyDeath789]

11 minutes ago, 844448 said:

When I see some accounts made just to complain like railjack navigation system where anyone can start, I see it as a problem. Sure, it's a problem that anyone can do it without other player's consent but when they spend their time and energy to complain here instead of trying to communicate in game, I see that account as a potential toxic player

I am here just because I bought a ton of popcorn for the quarantine efforts...and these forums give me another place to enjoy that popcorn since I have watched the 400 movies from my Netflix list already!!!!

For me I usually wait for the player to post words before I decide to evaluate if they are toxic or not...plus it gives me time to get more butter for my popcorn!

*just trying to have some fun while reading these threads...not trying to stir up trouble (yet :)*

 

[Felsagger]

26 minutes ago, 844448 said:

When I see some accounts made just to complain like railjack navigation system where anyone can start, I see it as a problem. Sure, it's a problem that anyone can do it without other player's consent but when they spend their time and energy to complain here instead of trying to communicate in game, I see that account as a potential toxic player

 

Sometimes many of you deserve a tasty good old long insult for few minutes. .  

 

 

 

/s  :3

Obviously I'm not going for that, not my policy. 

 

This society pretends to be civilized when it isn't. This society pretends to behave when all of the sudden the whole thing becomes a Colosseum of arguments. The irony of all this is that we are simply talking about a VIDEO GAME. Imagine if we talk about politics, religion or any other delicate subject. We can't escape judgment huh? 

 

  

Edited May 19, 2020 by Felsagger

[844448]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

But do you know that players thought process or issues. You seeing something as a simple get around like everyone else does not dismiss the fact that something could not be enjoyable to others marking them off as toxic leads to no progressive discussion and furthermore provides no beneficial conversation. 

Look, I understand if you have a problem with someone or something and you don't find it enjoyable but coming all the way to the forums just to complain? I don't know what to say

For railjack, I understand when people don't like seeing other players using their artillery or ordnance, but is it that hard to spend a minute or two typing in chat that you're wasting supplies or tell them through voice chat and tell them how to do it properly compared to writing paragraphs on how people wasting your supplies and there should be a lock function?

And in case you don't know, the non vocal players in warframe can be pretty toxic, especially when you do sortie public spy (I'm not recommending you to do it)

[Aldain]

8 minutes ago, 844448 said:

For railjack, I understand when people don't like seeing other players using their artillery or ordnance, but is it that hard to spend a minute or two typing in chat that you're wasting supplies or tell them through voice chat and tell them how to do it properly compared to writing paragraphs on how people wasting your supplies and there should be a lock function?

You assume that they will listen.

And I'm saying this as a guy who is strictly opposed to locking systems. If somebody doesn't want to or care to listen then no amount of trying to explain things will help.

This thread is actually pretty good proof of that on both sides of the issue when you think about it.

[L4D3M]

These aren't nerfs, but here are some active rather than passive example of gameplay that can be included to up your skill, and you could have enemies gradually become more resistant to these moves the more they see them performed:

-Grabbing someone and using them as a temporary body-shield. Their gun is buffed and you can fire it at others. If they have a melee weapon, you can deflect with it or throw it into another enemy for high damage.

-Grabbing and throwing an enemy into another for a stun starting with a vault or countering the incoming momentum of the grabbed enemy.

-Using a Scorpion's grappling hook to stun and reel in a stronger enemy type to then use successive melee attacks or a finisher on.

-Grab a sticky grenade and throw it back, with higher damage to enemies when you do.