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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


Jarriaga
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5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Actually outside of the imo unwarranted complaints over the old ember wof it's pretty rare that AoE attacks are brought up in the grand scheme of things.

I always see "nerf Saryn", "nerf Bramma" posts.

5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Also as mentioned numerous times on the same forum, is a very small number of the overall player base and in all honesty probably the least listened to, compared with reddit and twitter for example, when it comes to the game.

And people complaining about nerfs are also a minority. Most players go with the flow.

5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

You keep saying gameplay while totally ignoring that using the current AoE IS gameplay as well...

I'm talking about overall gameplay. Unrestricted AoE is a part of it, and this part in its current state harms the other parts of gameplay.

5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

and may well be the reason that that particular player is even playing the game

Was it the reason for you personally? I've yet to see anyone who started playing this game because at some point he or she would be able to stay in one place and occasionally press "delete enemies" button. Warframe is advertised as fast-paced action game, not as semi-afk clicker.

5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Generally speaking... yes, most players don't want to spend any longer on a mission than necessary when the primary purpose of the mission is to grind as much of whatever as needed as quickly as possible.... and things like defence take far longer than necessary due to the speed at which the enemies travel to the target so speeding them up (along with the small damage buff) with a speed nova to allow for faster access to the rewards, such as the relics we want/need, is a common thing in my experience.

So, no real problems.

5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Apart from the ancient toxic scream/aura being a bit overpowered I don't have any real issue with the enemy aura's as they are if I'm being honest so saying they'll be included doesn't really change much imo. 

It's only fair.

Edited by Xaero
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1 hour ago, 844448 said:

Look, I understand if you have a problem with someone or something and you don't find it enjoyable but coming all the way to the forums just to complain? I don't know what to say

For railjack, I understand when people don't like seeing other players using their artillery or ordnance, but is it that hard to spend a minute or two typing in chat that you're wasting supplies or tell them through voice chat and tell them how to do it properly compared to writing paragraphs on how people wasting your supplies and there should be a lock function?

And in case you don't know, the non vocal players in warframe can be pretty toxic, especially when you do sortie public spy (I'm not recommending you to do it)

If people are disappointed or not satisfied with a product they have a right to express such. You’d rather them go rally outside of DE offices and heir homes with pitchforks? Mind you also you don’t have to entertain such threads you disagree with if they annoy you or don’t align with your interest. Again a complain can be valid excusing it and dismissing it is part of the issue. Creating toxicity on both ends. 

 you assume people have one bad game and just come to the forums to whine about it regularly which isn’t the Case in many of these situations. More often then not It’s frustration that has amassed among multiple play sessions. Which again can be a valid reason to be upset and voice such. It appears you don’t care for such however and I recommend that you don’t engage in these threads or discussions. It dosent seem healthy for you bro

also it’s pubs..... it’s not really toxic if people are just trying to complete a sortie you fail and they leave. A remake may be faster for them. If you don’t like pubs premades are always there

Edited by (PS4)sweatshawp
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54 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You assume that they will listen.

And I'm saying this as a guy who is strictly opposed to locking systems. If somebody doesn't want to or care to listen then no amount of trying to explain things will help.

This thread is actually pretty good proof of that on both sides of the issue when you think about it.

Bingo. There is no want for compromise here so there will be no productivty

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Bingo. There is no want for compromise here so there will be no productivty

I’ve already expressed a really nice compromise solution a few pages back. Tbh lack of compromise is common in the 21st century. Checkout the United States for example.

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11 hours ago, Aseraan said:

I still dont see btw how is the brama got into the game tonkor got nerfed simulor got nerfed DE just  going round round whit this make  a realy annoying weapon  nerf it than make another one just like the previus one.

Lack of proper testing.

Edited by Xaero
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3 hours ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

That said not doing anything to enemy AI makes any nerf to WF powers meaningless.

Doing anything to enemy AI without any nerf to WF powers is meaningless.

Nerfing our power (in form of restricting all AoE stuff from going through walls and obstacles, for example) would make us play more actively regardless of changes to enemy AI.

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10 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

if the enemy ai were a bit more tactical and defensive it could in theory countermand our cc or protect groups behind ehavy shields so its less effective

You're basically saying that enemies should be able to take cover to avoid our AoE spam. There is a simple fix for this. Restricting AoE stuff from affecting enemies behind walls and obstacles.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

If people are disappointed or not satisfied with a product they have a right to express such. You’d rather them go rally outside of DE offices and heir homes with pitchforks? Mind you also you don’t have to entertain such threads you disagree with if they annoy you or don’t align with your interest. Again a complain can be valid excusing it and dismissing it is part of the issue. Creating toxicity on both ends. 

 you assume people have one bad game and just come to the forums to whine about it regularly which isn’t the Case in many of these situations. More often then not It’s frustration that has amassed among multiple play sessions. Which again can be a valid reason to be upset and voice such. It appears you don’t care for such however and I recommend that you don’t engage in these threads or discussions. It dosent seem healthy for you bro

also it’s pubs..... it’s not really toxic if people are just trying to complete a sortie you fail and they leave. A remake may be faster for them. If you don’t like pubs premades are always there

And from what I see they never said they try to tell them something, just seeing people do things and complain later instead of trying to communicate. I understand if they try and other players didn't try to hear but from these threads I see? They didn't try at all to communicate or I may be wrong

And for that sortie? The one who made mistake is the one insulting the rest of the team and leave and it's just hilarious to me so I run pub just to look at the toxicity

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3 hours ago, Aldain said:

You assume that they will listen.

And I'm saying this as a guy who is strictly opposed to locking systems. If somebody doesn't want to or care to listen then no amount of trying to explain things will help.

This thread is actually pretty good proof of that on both sides of the issue when you think about it.

And as someone who also opposed to locking systems, if someone is not listening, I head back to dry dock or leave squad on mission success. Let them do their way while I find new squad

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1 minute ago, 844448 said:

And from what I see they never said they try to tell them something, just seeing people do things and complain later instead of trying to communicate. I understand if they try and other players didn't try to hear but from these threads I see? They didn't try at all to communicate or I may be wrong

And for that sortie? The one who made mistake is the one insulting the rest of the team and leave and it's just hilarious to me so I run pub just to look at the toxicity

This issue is you don’t know them so you don’t know that. Again. Assuming ones complaints are invalid and dismissing them. Which is counter productive towards what you all seem to want to achieve and is just as toxic as people “whining”. You’re not understanding that however 

I don’t feel like repeating myself anymore though 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

This issue is you don’t know them so you don’t know that. Again. Assuming ones complaints are invalid and dismissing them. Which is counter productive towards what you all seem to want to achieve and is just as toxic as people “whining”. You’re not understanding that however 

And you don't know me so you don't know that. What I'm saying is they complain about it and that's it, if they said they tried to communicate I would understand but here, we only see people complaining over public matches about how people doing things and I give them solution, and you only see me assuming people's complaint is invalid and dismissing it

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You can give enemies more tools for dealing with CC without nerfing the CC itself - they could throw special void grenades that could pick up the properties of areas under the effects of an ability so if one is thrown through a stasis field at 155 range and 155 duration the grenade gets boosted range on it's explosion which disables the CC and it's effect lasts longer which is to block all abilities cast in that area and silence Warframes who were caught in the explosion. Grineer could toss Parasitic Drones that attach onto Warframes and lower Duration/Range to 10 percent and need to shot off by teammates (or an operator), Sentient could create portals that bypass CC entirely, Infested could produce special Eximus units who resist CC and gain more damage for every active ability in your Warframe squad giving a tradeoff of CC for enemy lethality, Corpus could cleanse CC on their allies, Orokin could steal a CC ability off your Warframe casting it on you while for you it is disabled until you take care of the thief, There are so many options that don't involve putting CC back in the orphanage.

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51 minutes ago, (XB1)SirMilkfiend said:

You can give enemies more tools for dealing with CC without nerfing the CC itself - they could throw special void grenades that could pick up the properties of areas under the effects of an ability so if one is thrown through a stasis field at 155 range and 155 duration the grenade gets boosted range on it's explosion which disables the CC and it's effect lasts longer which is to block all abilities cast in that area and silence Warframes who were caught in the explosion. Grineer could toss Parasitic Drones that attach onto Warframes and lower Duration/Range to 10 percent and need to shot off by teammates (or an operator), Sentient could create portals that bypass CC entirely, Infested could produce special Eximus units who resist CC and gain more damage for every active ability in your Warframe squad giving a tradeoff of CC for enemy lethality, Corpus could cleanse CC on their allies, Orokin could steal a CC ability off your Warframe casting it on you while for you it is disabled until you take care of the thief, There are so many options that don't involve putting CC back in the orphanage.

Everything you proposed indirectly nerfs CC though. It's going to meet as much resistance from a certain part of community because CC abilities won't be 100% reliable anymore.

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22 pages holy skoom

Warframe should stay in this way by default. More complex gameplay snd new mexhsnics should be on ultra hard mode to avoid pissing off people. Dunno why it should be just one way, plsyer looking for a challenge would have it and players who enjoy warframe level of difficulty wiill stay on easy mode. 

Unless you guys aren't talking anymore about the topic

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36 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

STOP HAVING FUN! SO MANY PEOPLE, CLEARLY NOBODY WANTS TO HAVE FUN! NERF IT ALL!

This is just willingly avoiding to read. Most people here just want to nerf outliers that are undoubtably gamebreaking (Saryn, Limbo, Mesa, Equinox...) in order to make the game less of a "press a button and everything dies or stops in place", with maybe a rework to how AoE damage works to at least require LoS. The proposals are meant to give the devs a platform to build meaningful encounters, not the usual stompfest in which nothing can harm you except grind requirements and burnout. No one is asking to remove fun or introduce souls-like levels of difficulty, just the bare minimum to give people a sense of accomplishment in combat, which is what constitutes fun for a lot of players. 

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7 hours ago, Xaero said:

I always see "nerf Saryn", "nerf Bramma" posts.

So pretty rare then... considering that is just 2 things out of what 350....

7 hours ago, Xaero said:

I'm talking about overall gameplay. Unrestricted AoE is a part of it, and this part in its current state harms the other parts of gameplay.

Again this is only in YOUR opinion.... other's won't agree with that viewpoint.

7 hours ago, Xaero said:

Was it the reason for you personally? I've yet to see anyone who started playing this game because at some point he or she would be able to stay in one place and occasionally press "delete enemies" button. Warframe is advertised as fast-paced action game, not as semi-afk clicker.

Actually the abilities were a big draw for me personally, it is one of the main things that makes warframe unique in the 'fast paced action game' genre (it's not really an action game imo but still) as it was for many others that I know in game, as I've said warframe is incredibly weak as a game when you remove the abilities.... also the irony there with you bringing up that warframe is fast paced when you were earlier saying 'what's the rush'....

Also I remember these AoE effects being one of the first positive memories I have in this game as a newbie who didn't have access to them... it gave me something to aim for as it was impressive to see at that stage of my time in warframe... now as a long term player I know about clans, in game friends and recruit chat so if I want a group of like minded players I can get them, I know that I can build frames in multiple ways which don't all rely on AoE aspect of the frames... but I also know that AoE effects can greatly speed up the unnecessary grind that is imposed on us at times so I would never want them nerfed because there is literally no way DE is going to reduce the grind needed for things, it would hit their plat sales.

 

So far I've seen nothing other than it being your opinion (or more accurately your dislike for it) as a reason to nerf AoE... so there is literally no reason to carry on going any further with this back and forth.

 

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4 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

other's won't agree with that viewpoint.

You'd be surprised at how many people would agree with that viewpoint, though. Almost anyone who has played other horde shooters or tactical shooters knows pretty well how damaging unrestricted and plentiful AoEs can be to game design. And the sheer amount of concern for difficulty that floods the forums, which DE themselves acknowledge, seems a pretty good indicator that people enjoy challenge.

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually the abilities were a big draw for me personally, it is one of the main things that makes warframe unique in the 'fast paced action game' genre (it's not really an action game imo but still) as it was for many others that I know in game, as I've said warframe is incredibly weak as a game when you remove the abilities.... also the irony there with you bringing up that warframe is fast paced when you were earlier saying 'what's the rush'....

And nobody is saying to remove abilities and the uniqueness they provide, just to keep them in line so that this game doesn't reduce itself to simple grinding because all the fun is sapped out by brainless skills that play the game for you. Warframe is indeed weak as a game when you remove abilities, but it is equally weak if combat provides no sense of accomplishment and the whole gameplay loop boils down to "grind for the next shiny thing". Because then you are having fun chasing an illusion and hating the process, which is necessarily riddled with RNG and poor reward structure just for the staggering speed at which we can complete encounters. AoE is fine as a concept and an integral part of every shooter, however it should be something you work for if it's paired with high damage. Good examples of this in warframe do exist: Gauss's 3 combo with redline shreds enemies, but requires preparation (Redline up and running, and a double cast); Garuda has great AoE potential, which requires set up (Her talons ability + a decently charged dread mirror). AoE is fun, but that fun is watered down if it's given out like candy and not treated as a reward for mindful ability usage and coordination. Let's get back to grinding for a moment. If some of the outliers are toned down, and missions take a while longer to complete, DE can then put meaningful rewards for our time investment, instead of the usual fodder that pads the RNG of good drops. And on top of that you'd get a better combat experience, since you'd have to think and would feel the thrill of risking loss if you are not careful. It's a win for everyone.

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39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

So pretty rare then... considering that is just 2 things out of what 350....

Pretty often. They stand out the most so brought up frequently.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Again this is only in YOUR opinion.... other's won't agree with that viewpoint.

Do you remember what this whole thread is about? DE stated it's a problem. And it's pretty obvious, you just refuse to admit it.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually the abilities were a big draw for me personally, it is one of the main things that makes warframe unique in the 'fast paced action game' genre (it's not really an action game imo but still) as it was for many others that I know in game, as I've said warframe is incredibly weak as a game when you remove the abilities....

Yeah, but I don't see anyone demanding to remove the abilities. Stop making stuff up, it doesn't magically become an argument.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

also the irony there with you bringing up that warframe is fast paced when you were earlier saying 'what's the rush'....

Imagine a game where you need to press one button on your keyboard to instantly complete the mission. Would anyone call it fast-paced? Being fast-paced doesn't mean having short missions.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Also I remember these AoE effects being one of the first positive memories I have in this game as a newbie who didn't have access to them... it gave me something to aim for as it was impressive to see at that stage of my time in warframe...

You did see enemies dying around you, but you didn't see them dying couple walls away from you. If there was LoS restriction, your impression wouldn't have suffered anyways.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

but I also know that AoE effects can greatly speed up the unnecessary grind that is imposed on us at times

So, in your opinion it's good to have a crutch for the sake of keeping another crutch. Right? By the way, what do you mean by unnecessary grind? I can only think of Hema clan research, why DE are so reluctant to change the requirements is beyond me. But it's just a single gun.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

because there is literally no way DE is going to reduce the grind needed for things, it would hit their plat sales.

Yeah, they totally haven't doubled Intrinsics gain. And they haven't tripled Titanium and Asterite drops. And they haven't made operator arcanes non-craftable. And so on.

39 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

So far I've seen nothing other than it being your opinion (or more accurately your dislike for it) as a reason to nerf AoE... so there is literally no reason to carry on going any further with this back and forth.

You should re-read OP's post, specifically Pablo's quotes.

Edited by Xaero
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I'd rather have DE break the rules by releasing content that strictly diverge from current game, with new sets of rules. I was hyped by duviri trailer because it's operator + weapons for example. Eidolons, orbs are content that break rules and are fine but it is not enough. The game has never played itself as much as now. We should look toward whole part of content that are like plain of eidolons for example with a ton of operator stuff. The operator system is pretty neat, as it exists since a very long time and is still very underused by most of the community.

Just release content that use different things than your regular warframes. Branch content in different paths and commit to it.

Edited by Galuf
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41 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

DE can then put meaningful rewards for our time investment, instead of the usual fodder that pads the RNG of good drops. And on top of that you'd get a better combat experience, since you'd have to think and would feel the thrill of risking loss if you are not careful. It's a win for everyone.

Inb4 "it's only your opinion, other players, including me, won't like that".

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