Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, LSG501 said:

Can you honestly say that you could see DE going to this extreme of a change to the enemy mechanics, I can't because with literally every other thing they've 'changed' after we've complained they've done the bare minimum to make it look as though they've listened while ultimately not actually changing much. 

IO on Jupiter basically had the changes you've mentioned done to the map in the rework, you could argue that Earth has them as well and can you honestly say you enjoy those maps... at the very least you ideally want a speed nova to speed up the rate the enemies get to you.  I literally haven't done IO since about a week after the rework and well earth isn't really high enough level in the first place.

And they'd also need to fix the issues with LoS too, it is not 100% reliable.

I don't mind the idea of grineer getting a 'nullifier' of sorts, as long as it's easy to see/kill etc like corpus/ancient, maybe even make them immune to our abilities so they can get in closer to throw said grenade and cancel out our abilities etc... Maybe even go down the corpus comba/scrambus route or to make even more simple, just have the enemies from demolysts from disruption turn up in normal missions (prioritising AoE frames), with their explosion cancelling out abilities for say 30 seconds.

Neither Io or earth solves the issues, they are still barebones since the enemy needs to get into a campable enclosed area. Defense should be switched to something that is less predictable, where the tenno somehow doesnt defend the optimal spot on the map. We should defend the most exposed spot since the encampment belongs to the enemy and not the otherway around. It is fine that the defense target is in the middle, but those maps should have vantage points looking over the center, vantage point where the enemies can attack us from safety, where we cannot just AoE instagib them. Places we need to get to, where need to organize a bit to keep the objective safe at the same time.

Heck, defense should change to an "escort" mission similar to hijack, where we need to get it off planet. Maps made up of both small tight corridors aswell as rooms, walkways, gaps, trams and whatever. The endless part could be kept by simply loading up a new defense objective when the first has reached extraction. Lets say during rota 1 you escort something from the ship that is needed in order to make the defense target movable, during rota 2 you move the defense target to the ship, rota 3 you bring back another thing for the next defense target and so on. And in those with living defense targets they could just make it so we escort spies or something.

And yeah, LoS still needs work to be more accurate. Currently it can be very forgiving while also being stopped by a grain of sand.

Yeah, making them ability immune would be a good option to let them get their special skills off. Anything for a more active combat experience would be great. I mean, dont get me wrong, I love my Revenant currently, it is just that it gets a bit boring only having one single thing to keep your eyes on, which is his mesmer stack, well that and possible nullibubbles that arent hard to spot. Having smaller things that may screw up your buffs would be very welcomed.

[Felsagger]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Touha9 said:

So well and concisely put....  This is exactly how I feel as well.  In general, we are talking about some modest adjustments to just a few Frames abilities and/or how AoE works.  If you combine a little of this with a little added complexity of mission types and enemy behavior/ability, I think you would have a winning balance that would NOT require huge, wholesale major changes to the game and NOT involve major nerfs or enemy buffs.  The game will never be balanced nor should it be as we all want the power fantasy. 

 

This opens the discussion to GRADIENTS. 

The concept we are addressing here is linear dependence where such terms are regulated as gradients of intensity. This belongs to a formal discussion. First we have to identify these variables. 

a. A list of War Frames marked or identified as the outliers. 

b. Complexity in mission types where more than one objective is required for the completion. Missions can incorporate more than two simultaneous objectives. 

c. Level increase on enemy shields, health, armor and hit point damage. 

d. Increase performance in enemy behavior, load out and use of abilities. 

 

This is how you make a linear combination between balance and difficulty. This marriage can't be broken even if we want to. These two parameters are linked. 

 

Quote

But, as Steve at DE has talked about---the key for Warframe's future health is more "intrinsic" rewards in playing.....the gameplay itself is just a joy to play and satisfying with a sense of accomplishment.  Grind, which there will always be, is less of an issue if the game is just continually enjoyable and rewarding to simply play.  

 

This is exactly where STEVE SINCLAIR is WRONG. We have to prove him why he is wrong with counterexamples. This is where all of us comes in. However that critique needs to be PURELY SCIENTIFIC, extremely strict, precise and concise. 

I am not going to challenge his intelligence or his programming skills. That man is there for a reason. However we can influence his mindset with precise examples where a BALANCE of intrinsic and extrinsic is needed. 

Why? Because a balance between acquisition of new players and retention of seasoned players are needed against churn. While DE buys time selling their expansion packs, these measures tries to diminish churn. 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Felsagger

[LSG501]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Neither Io or earth solves the issues, they are still barebones since the enemy needs to get into a campable enclosed area. Defense should be switched to something that is less predictable, where the tenno somehow doesnt defend the optimal spot on the map. We should defend the most exposed spot since the encampment belongs to the enemy and not the otherway around. It is fine that the defense target is in the middle, but those maps should have vantage points looking over the center, vantage point where the enemies can attack us from safety, where we cannot just AoE instagib them. Places we need to get to, where need to organize a bit to keep the objective safe at the same time.

Heck, defense should change to an "escort" mission similar to hijack, where we need to get it off planet. Maps made up of both small tight corridors aswell as rooms, walkways, gaps, trams and whatever. The endless part could be kept by simply loading up a new defense objective when the first has reached extraction. Lets say during rota 1 you escort something from the ship that is needed in order to make the defense target movable, during rota 2 you move the defense target to the ship, rota 3 you bring back another thing for the next defense target and so on. And in those with living defense targets they could just make it so we escort spies or something.

 

I don't mind the 'person defence' we sometimes get as an option either, do wish they had slightly better AI though as it's really annoying seeing them walk into enemy fire...instead of finding cover like any normal person would do.

Your 'escort' mission sounds very much like defection but with just one enemy instead of a group... not sure I like that one if I'm honest, defection routing issues aside it's pretty boring due to players just locking down the route.

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah, making them ability immune would be a good option to let them get their special skills off. Anything for a more active combat experience would be great. I mean, dont get me wrong, I love my Revenant currently, it is just that it gets a bit boring only having one single thing to keep your eyes on, which is his mesmer stack, well that and possible nullibubbles that arent hard to spot. Having smaller things that may screw up your buffs would be very welcomed.

As long as there is some sort of 'notifier' of a grenade then grenades are fine imo too.  It's also not like grineer don't have the ability to be immune to our abilities either, they have the kuva guard (although I wouldn't want to go down the operator to unlock route) and they now have access to amalgam tech so no reason DE couldn't give them their own 'nullifiers'. 

 

[Loza03]

38 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

Now this is highly accurate. 

 

The fundamental problem is the interaction of two military mindsets due to a difference in technology. The set of rules on engagements will be different. We should not be the ones pulling counter measureless on them, they are. The set of rules for War Frames paints a completely different battlefield than those with lower technologies or tool set kits. 

War Frames are juggernauts that move fast, has an increased area of effect and sometimes they get invulnerability for long spans of times with regeneration. No enemy A.I.wil be able to counter War Frames with only military accuracy. It needs much more. Grineer behaves like units instead of squad teams. Squad teams focus dps or damage per second more accurate. However that requires 'target painting'. Grineer should mark targets so a vast majority of squads focus their attention on them. 

The distance of engagement is the other problem. War Frames are vulnerable at long distance while at short distances they go melee. The A.I, in this case Grineer, should get weapons that helps them safeguard distance such as energy shields, armor shield, typical shields and weapons that punish War Frames that goes near like powerful shot guns. 

Enemies needs more than one weapon. They need two or three depending on the unit. The enemy needs load outs such as grenades, smoke grenades, sticky bombs, and the normal weapon types. Grineer needs a military organization that defines enemy types. This does not affect the War Frame, Mods, Weapons or Tenno. 

Limbo is a War Frame that requires enemy coordination. He is way ahead of any form of military weaponry and accuracy. His technology makes him a foe impossible to take down unless the enemy finds way to shut down temporary his powers or abilities. This is why target painting is important. "We have a Limbo in the field" "requesting void null devices".

 

 

Target painting - AKA, drawing aggro - would be a mechanic I could see implemented, and it'd certainly be an avenue to promote co-operative play. It'd certainly give tank frames a purpose beyond 'just passively being immortal, lul'. However, I don't believe that'd be all that helpful against Limbo, since Limbo can chill in his rift all day long. As-is, that makes him untouchable, since effectively he has dominance in almost scenario. If he's in the rift, and the enemy is outside, he's untouchable. If he's out the rift and the enemy is, he's untouchable. If he's in the rift and the enemy is in the rift, he's untouchable, because how stasis works. And Limbo can quite easily spend all his time in the rift, meaning that the one time that he would be vulnerable doesn't come up.

All these are some ideas which could easily be placed into a fun way, and some already exist (like enemies holding up shields to protect others from damage, or having a number of different weapon types in a group) even if in a simplistic manner. Problem is, player abilities would supress many of them. Radial abilities treat flanking enemies the same as enemies coming directly at them. Not every environment can be a wide open space for a sniper or long-ranged option to flourish. Smoke grenades wouldn't be useful.

As for those 'void null devices', I've already had to discuss with another person - nullification just isn't the answer. You can go back and read those if you want, but let's not lead the conversation in circles if we can avoid it.

 

Addressing the Limbo point I made - about how he's untouchable - changing how stasis works would, on its own, be enough to enable enemies like this. My suggested change is limit its area of effect to a bubble the size of a full shrunk cataclysm (i.e. the size just before it pops), and have projectiles (not hitscan) be destroyed when they contact. This means that, since Limbo's abilities don't cleanly affect only the area stasis effects anymore, that there'd be a region of Limbo's operation where he is in the rift, and the enemy is in the rift, and he can be touched. A chink in the armour to be exploited.

 

That's basically the core of this discussion. Many suggestions for better enemies involve making enemies better at exploiting weak spots, but right now, most Warframes simply don't have weak spots to exploit.

[Autongnosis]

Le 18/05/2020 à 00:00, nslay a dit :

I can think of things AI can do in Index to beat us... like baiting us to go near the edge and then bumping us off the edge to our deaths. Or, how about guarding the energy/ammo restore points and ambushing us? The Auditor could also hide and wait for us to be near one of those laser bar areas before deploying the laser bars that instantly kill Tenno.

In Defense missions, AI can throw a bunch of grenades at the defense target and there isn't much we can do if the grenades land near it (well, Limbo can bypass this). AI can also divide and conquer where some AI is distracting us while the others are shooting the defense target at a distance.

AI in Rescue missions can be more attentive to the rescue target... like an Ancient can grab the rescue target and pull him into an awaiting crowd of runners (these explode on death). The Tar Mutalist Moa and Mutalist Ospreys can also prime the area where an Ancient pulls the escaping rescue target. The AI in defection missions seem to be more adept at killing these kinds of targets!

In Capture missions, the AI can try to do more to protect the capture target. This already exists in Index where Tenno specters try to protect Tenno with lots of index points. The capture target can even orchestrate an ambush by using him/herself as bait.

Other general AI things I think can help a little:

• AI tries to push Tenno into respawn volumes (basically to disable their powers so they can kill them at respawn).
• Nullifiers and Scrambus/Comba can be a little sneakier and clever about when and where they nullify Warframe powers. Maybe give Comba/Scrambus a more intentional nullification ability (they seem to nullify random types of abilities on each cast). For example, a Nullifier might sneak up on you with Crewmen and then deploy the Nullifier bubble.
• Elite Shield Lancers can hide their presence in a crowd of Grineer before doing considerable damage to Tenno with their Tonkors (bravo for adding these units!).
• AI can be more attentive and aware of Operator... target Operator instead of Helios for example.
• I think specialized units like Grineer Commander can setup fancy ambushes by sneaking up and switching places with Tenno into an awaiting crowd of Grineer (hopefully including an Elite Shield Lancer or two to blow the Tenno up).

That doesn't matter one wee bit if I can tank the dmg output of level cap enemies or turn off any action they could do from 50+m away now does it? And since DE is astoundingly bad at doing proper telegraphs, nerfing everything to accommodate what you said would only result in the incredibly farcical and frustrating S#&$ show that commanders and rollers/knockdown spam is. 10/10 game design hot damn. 

[SneakyErvin]

10 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I don't mind the 'person defence' we sometimes get as an option either, do wish they had slightly better AI though as it's really annoying seeing them walk into enemy fire...instead of finding cover like any normal person would do.

Your 'escort' mission sounds very much like defection but with just one enemy instead of a group... not sure I like that one if I'm honest, defection routing issues aside it's pretty boring due to players just locking down the route.

As long as there is some sort of 'notifier' of a grenade then grenades are fine imo too.  It's also not like grineer don't have the ability to be immune to our abilities either, they have the kuva guard (although I wouldn't want to go down the operator to unlock route) and they now have access to amalgam tech so no reason DE couldn't give them their own 'nullifiers'. 

 

Best part ever is when a Hyekka lady(?) is near, covering the ground in fire and the operative just stands there "everything is fine" then dies.

Yeah they'd need to fix it in some way. Got the idea from Battlefront escort and Overwatch payload missions. The more players near it, the faster it would move. It would be very similar to hijack, but in far tighter areas and the option to be endless. They could make actual high security bunkers, where the enemies are safe behind walls and firing holes. So in order to kill or CC we either need to surround their position by leaving the objective, or rely on well aimed shots through the holes the enemy is firing on us.

It could be tied to the grenade, that could be what is making them immune since it can disrupt our power usage aswell. That would even open up the option for us to maybe shoot it in their hand (AoE would not work). And yeah, indicators and detonation delay should be things so we can avoid them.

[Felsagger]

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Target painting - AKA, drawing aggro - would be a mechanic I could see implemented, and it'd certainly be an avenue to promote co-operative play. It'd certainly give tank frames a purpose beyond 'just passively being immortal, lul'. However, I don't believe that'd be all that helpful against Limbo, since Limbo can chill in his rift all day long. As-is, that makes him untouchable, since effectively he has dominance in almost scenario. If he's in the rift, and the enemy is outside, he's untouchable. If he's out the rift and the enemy is, he's untouchable. If he's in the rift and the enemy is in the rift, he's untouchable, because how stasis works. And Limbo can quite easily spend all his time in the rift, meaning that the one time that he would be vulnerable doesn't come up.

All these are some ideas which could easily be placed into a fun way, and some already exist (like enemies holding up shields to protect others from damage, or having a number of different weapon types in a group) even if in a simplistic manner. Problem is, player abilities would suppress many of them. Radial abilities treat flanking enemies the same as enemies coming directly at them. Not every environment can be a wide open space for a sniper or long-ranged option to flourish. Smoke grenades wouldn't be useful.

As for those 'void null devices', I've already had to discuss with another person - nullification just isn't the answer. You can go back and read those if you want, but let's not lead the conversation in circles if we can avoid it.

 

Addressing the Limbo point I made - about how he's untouchable - changing how stasis works would, on its own, be enough to enable enemies like this. My suggested change is limit its area of effect to a bubble the size of a full shrunk cataclysm (i.e. the size just before it pops), and have projectiles (not hitscan) be destroyed when they contact. This means that, since Limbo's abilities don't cleanly affect only the area stasis effects anymore, that there'd be a region of Limbo's operation where he is in the rift, and the enemy is in the rift, and he can be touched. A chink in the armour to be exploited.

 

That's basically the core of this discussion. Many suggestions for better enemies involve making enemies better at exploiting weak spots, but right now, most Warframes simply don't have weak spots to exploit.

 

Agree. 

 

Yes that solution is feasible. He doesn't get downgraded but if he wants to dominate then that LImbo needs to move and risk. If there is an extrication of risk then such frame automatically becomes an outlier. 

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

That doesn't matter one wee bit if I can tank the dmg output of level cap enemies or turn off any action they could do from 50+m away now does it? And since DE is astoundingly bad at doing proper telegraphs, nerfing everything to accommodate what you said would only result in the incredibly farcical and frustrating S#&$ show that commanders and rollers/knockdown spam is. 10/10 game design hot damn. 

You tanking damage output of level cap enemies has nothing to do with failing the mission because they managed to destroy the defense target with grenades and more intentional attacks. It has nothing to do with the the enemies killing your rescue target. Nor does your ability to tank the damage prevent respawn volumes from disabling your defense ability. Your ability to tank level cap enemies has no relevance to cleverer Nullifiers or Comba/Scrambus who can also disable your tanking abilities. I fail to see your point on almost all counts.

I didn't propose anything needed to be nerfed to accommodate smarter AI that can help you fail certain types of missions.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

It's also funny how you comment about me ignoring other opinions etc because from my perspective you're doing the exact same thing...

Having an opinion is, of course, a right, but that doesn't mean that your opinion cannot be proven wrong. Your opinion is that AoE is fine as it is, and currently your only argumentation has been "I like it that way therefore I'm right", while me and others have been providing reasonable evidence on how uncontrolled AoE heavily undermines combat and enemy design, robbing the game of its challenge, which is statically something that the a very relevant portion of the community cares about (data taken from Steve's pools). Your only counter argumentation has been "AoE is fine as it is because I like it that way, and AoE is the reason people get into this game", which doesn't address any point made in addition to being factually incorrect. Your right to an opinion doesn't automatically make your opinion right, so I have every right to prove you wrong, which, considering your withdrawal from the argument, seems something that has been successfully achieved. It's not a matter of perspective, just a matter on who provided the clearest argumentations.

[(XBOX)GmanM1]

An enemy speed increase would do wonders...

[Autongnosis]

il y a 23 minutes, nslay a dit :

You tanking damage output of level cap enemies has nothing to do with failing the mission because they managed to destroy the defense target with grenades and more intentional attacks. It has nothing to do with the the enemies killing your rescue target. Nor does your ability to tank the damage prevent respawn volumes from disabling your defense ability. Your ability to tank level cap enemies has no relevance to cleverer Nullifiers or Comba/Scrambus who can also disable your tanking abilities. I fail to see your point on almost all counts.

I didn't propose anything needed to be nerfed to accommodate smarter AI that can help you fail certain types of missions.

Oh boi that's amazing, it must be the reason why nobody ever got to level cap yes? In fact, if you had even given a kinda cursory read, like three words past what you so sanctimoniously attack like it's an heresy not to be tolerated under the light of God, I also mentioned that small and negligible thing called 50m area control abilities. But I'm sure you've never heard of those have you? Program the sorian AI and merge it with deep blue, now what? You'll have a very very smart completely disabled enemy, great #*!%ing job mate 😛

[Lost_Cartographer]

On 2020-05-18 at 12:18 PM, Gabbynaru said:

Also Lotus forbid people wanting to play this game differently than you, eh?

Sorry, but I see this game as something to play when I just want to turn my mind off and relax. It should keep on being that, as it's been for the past 6 years. If I wanted pointless challenge, I have other games in my library for that, but very few, especially action games, that allow me to relax while playing them (I can only think of the Yakuza series atm). This is a massive strength for Warframe and something that makes it stand out from the crowd. Why take it away and make it generci sci-fi shooter #74025?

Because right now it's less than generic sci-fi shooter #74025, it's a puzzle game where you build your warframe to the point where you can press 4, then click on the heads of your enemies, if you can even be bothered to do that much, or if it's even an option.

People are literally TURNING OFF the game play with many of the META builds.  There's shutting your brain off the relax, then there's, "are you even bothering to play?"

Edited May 19, 2020 by Lost_Cartographer

[(PSN)Touha9]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

This opens the discussion to GRADIENTS. 

The concept we are addressing here is linear dependence where such terms are regulated as gradients of intensity. This belongs to a formal discussion. First we have to identify these variables. 

a. A list of War Frames marked or identified as the outliers. 

b. Complexity in mission types where more than one objective is required for the completion. Missions can incorporate more than two simultaneous objectives. 

c. Level increase on enemy shields, health, armor and hit point damage. 

d. Increase performance in enemy behavior, load out and use of abilities. 

This is how you make a linear combination between balance and difficulty. This marriage can't be broken even if we want to. These two parameters are linked. 

Quote:

"But, as Steve at DE has talked about---the key for Warframe's future health is more "intrinsic" rewards in playing.....the gameplay itself is just a joy to play and satisfying with a sense of accomplishment.  Grind, which there will always be, is less of an issue if the game is just continually enjoyable and rewarding to simply play."

This is exactly where STEVE SINCLAIR is WRONG. We have to prove him why he is wrong with counterexamples. This is where all of us comes in. However that critique needs to be PURELY SCIENTIFIC, extremely strict, precise and concise. 

I am not going to challenge his intelligence or his programming skills. That man is there for a reason. However we can influence his mindset with precise examples where a BALANCE of intrinsic and extrinsic is needed. 

Why? Because a balance between acquisition of new players and retention of seasoned players are needed against churn. While DE buys time selling their expansion packs, these measures tries to diminish churn. 

 

Agreed about it being a discussion of gradients and the linkage of balance and difficulty.  The parameters you outlined are good ones.

But, on the whole intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards thing, I think Steve is definitely not wrong.  It is not one or the other!  Of course there must always be extrinsic rewards in Warframe as that is a huge element of the game.  To your point, there needs to be balance so there still needs to be attention paid to and a focus on intrinsic rewards as well---we should all want this balance!  We should all want as players a strong sense of intrinsic rewards in playing the game.  The current state of affairs has this balance in jeopardy where the intrinsic rewards of playing are in danger of being diminished.  But, in no way does a desire for more intrinsic attention replace the need and desire for great extrinsic rewards.

Edited May 19, 2020 by (PS4)Touha9

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Touha9 said:

But, on the whole intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards thing, I think Steve is definitely not wrong.  It is not one or the other!

Yep, Extrinsic gets you playing, intrinsic keeps you playing.

Have extrinsic with no intrinsic you get Scarlet Spear, get your rewards and get out.

Have intrinsic with no extrinsic you have endurance runs, no real value outside of that small niche of players.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2020-05-17 at 3:00 PM, moostar95 said:

From the looks of this thread. People are ok with letting frames that arent nukers be dead in the water. Screw fixing nyx and chroma. Got to live out the power fantasy of stand around pressing four. Unless we get better missions layout. A great amount of frames will be useless because if you can just nuke to win. No point of thinking. I'm disappointed tbh.  If I want to play a "idle" game. I got forger on steam.  When i got to this game, it was for the fast paced movement and combat. But seeing this interviews and the current devstreams. Casual frame is what this game is now. camping is meta, nuking are meta. why even have 40 freaking frames in this game if people dont want to play for fun. damn, just when i had my hopes for the game.  I feel like the reasons for me to continue is getting less and less as the weeks go on. returning to this game in 2016 was amazing, so much to learn, so much to do, and that feeling of freedom you have where you can play any mission as any frame in high level content. Most importantly, It was the movement and combat that kept me glued for years.  it wasnt perfect, but, i was alot more optimistic for DE and this game. the thrill of challenging content that puts me to the test. may never come because people favored just camping in corners with mesa with the same braindead youtube builds. 

I'm in the stop nerfing the player camp. I don't seeing any player item, be it frame or weapon etc., get nerfed. Feel I'm in the very tiny minority that doesn't want anything nerfed. Ah well. No one listens to me. I'm not loud enough. 

[Darklord_Tou]

pretty much what i have been saying... players need to be nerfed hard for balance to exist

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I'm in the stop nerfing the player camp. I don't seeing any player item, be it frame or weapon etc., get nerfed. Feel I'm in the very tiny minority that doesn't want anything nerfed. Ah well. No one listens to me. I'm not loud enough. 

You'd rather have nuke frames rule supreme, and forfeit good mission and enemy design because DE won't even bother trying since everything will get trivialized?

[LSG501]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Having an opinion is, of course, a right, but that doesn't mean that your opinion cannot be proven wrong. Your opinion is that AoE is fine as it is, and currently your only argumentation has been "I like it that way therefore I'm right",

Actually it isn't but if that makes you feel better keep thinking that...

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually it isn't but if that makes you feel better keep thinking that...

You are free to enlighten me, I'm not the one who stepped away entirely from the conversation.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You'd rather have nuke frames rule supreme, and forfeit good mission and enemy design because DE won't even bother trying since everything will get trivialized?

I don't want the player to have their enjoyment of the game trivialized nor disregarded because people get upset at the frames they see in public missions. I don't complain about Saryns, I don't complain about Limbos, I don't complain about frames nor weapons. Sorry, I'm just not like that. The more you ask for nerfs, the more you're demanding DE cater specifically to your precious needs rather than letting players enjoy the game. 

Also, DE doesn't need to nerf frames to make great story content. Look at Second Dream, War Within, Chains of Harrow & Sacrifice. 

[Felsagger]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Touha9 said:

Agreed about it being a discussion of gradients and the linkage of balance and difficulty.  The parameters you outlined are good ones.

But, on the whole intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards thing, I think Steve is definitely not wrong.  It is not one or the other!  Of course there must always be extrinsic rewards in Warframe as that is a huge element of the game.  To your point, there needs to be balance so there still needs to be attention paid to and a focus on intrinsic rewards as well---we should all want this balance!  We should all want as players a strong sense of intrinsic rewards in playing the game.  The current state of affairs has this balance in jeopardy where the intrinsic rewards of playing are in danger of being diminished.  But, in no way does a desire for more intrinsic attention replace the need and desire for great extrinsic rewards.

Yes, I like where this is heading. 

These two schools of thought are well predominant in game design. Intrinsic or "player plays because he wants X item" and extrinsic or "player plays because is fun". We believe that fun is a general term where challenge is included. When we speak about challenge then the parameters of balance and difficulty joins in. This conversation is now completely systemic. We can classify variables, adjust them and discard the ones who produces redundancy. 

Our current state is quite complex because we have to appease satisfaction and reward effort. I'm not justifying churn, however we want to improve the quality of life on every aspect of the game. Without it we can't secure a degree of comfort and satisfaction with the clients. The formal structure of this conversation has all the strict contextual definitions and game terms need for the formulation of partial solutions on short terms and long terms. Why I select partial, because the game structure is subjected to change. 

One of the Kernels of this problem is the CACE structure of their programming (Change anything, change everything). We forced them sustain four layers of interaction in the game. No other company risks that much. We use terms as game genres for a specify trait of these layers. DE went ahead amalgamating few of these layers together. Within these, stratification and cascading effects happens. Such topic belongs to another thread but is deeply related to our problem. 

If we provide solutions that simplify without impacting too much War Frame, Meta and Performance of builds we get a good consensus. The game retains the attributes but makes diverse missions, objectives and a fair complexity of tasks on such objectives. DE provided small components of missions. Now we need some sort of integration on these components. Raids where too much for them due to the massive updates on War Frame and Weapons plus all the complication caused by the code. 

The player needs a balance in intensives and performance. Rewards should be a driving force without losing engagement and of course challenge. Steve is wrong because the game revolves on the idea of reward when the objective of any game is to entertain throughout difficulty and balances.  Game quality should not be subjected to only resource grinding, XP walls, and RNG walls. 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I don't want the player to have their enjoyment of the game trivialized nor disregarded because people get upset at the frames they see in public missions. I don't complain about Saryns, I don't complain about Limbos, I don't complain about frames nor weapons. Sorry, I'm just not like that. The more you ask for nerfs, the more you're demanding DE cater specifically to your precious needs rather than letting players enjoy the game. 

Also, DE doesn't need to nerf frames to make great story content. Look at Second Dream, War Within, Chains of Harrow & Sacrifice. 

Story content is largely single player cinematic content that dosent really have you in a team setting. While I agree that complaining about frames in a public setting makes no sense..... 

people get frustrated.

for example as a die hard salty as main (tm) people complain that a Saryn or Mesa steals all of ashes kills (personally I don’t have this issue but I’m usually trying and focused while playing the game doing ash stuff so there’s that) and want ash to be on the same level as those mentioned frames to be playable. I can see the frustration in not being able to do anything in a pub mission. And while I don’t care and I see pubs as just there if I need to just complete a one and done thing. They do have a point. 

You have these frames leagues above other frames making people only want to play x y and z because they are so dominant for what is needed. You want dps?  Play Saryn equinox Mesa. Because if your don’t and there is one in game they are likely to do all that before you can look at an enemy. 

You want tank boi. Play inaros cause he’s low maintaince unlike rock boi atlas 

you want support? Play trin because short of crit she is the best support etc.

and while I do agree balance to perfection is near impossible and there will always be outliars such as the bramma vs any other bow. (Except god tier daikyu) and the pre nerf tombfinger vs literally almost any other weapon.  Closing the margin between those is key. 

I can understand that nobody likes nerfs and to “buff everything to match x y or z”  

but nerfs are needed just as much as a buff and 

if we kept constantly buffing everything powercreep would be getting worse and worse and worse to manage. 

Also I’m aware wf is a power fantasy. That dosent mean balance should be thrown out the window like de did for years (Which is why we are in this thread right now arguing about it) but they are tying to reel it in now which also invalidates people giving the argument that we don’t need balance. Our devs even think we are too strong and need to be toned down. And that says a lot

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Story content is largely single player cinematic content that dosent really have you in a team setting. While I agree that complaining about frames in a public setting makes no sense..... 

people get frustrated.

for example as a die hard salty as main (tm) people complain that a Saryn or Mesa steals all of ashes kills (personally I don’t have this issue but I’m usually trying and focused while playing the game doing ash stuff so there’s that) and want ash to be on the same level as those mentioned frames to be playable. I can see the frustration in not being able to do anything in a pub mission. And while I don’t care and I see pubs as just there if I need to just complete a one and done thing. They do have a point. 

You have these frames leagues above other frames making people only want to play x y and z because they are so dominant for what is needed. You want dps?  Play Saryn equinox Mesa. Because if your don’t and there is one in game they are likely to do all that before you can look at an enemy. 

You want tank boi. Play inaros cause he’s low maintaince unlike rock boi atlas 

you want support? Play trin because short of crit she is the best support etc.

and while I do agree balance to perfection is near impossible and there will always be outliars such as the bramma vs any other bow. (Except god tier daikyu) and the pre nerf tombfinger vs literally almost any other weapon.  Closing the margin between those is key. 

I can understand that nobody likes nerfs and to “buff everything to match x y or z”  

but nerfs are needed just as much as a buff and 

if we kept constantly buffing everything powercreep would be getting worse and worse and worse to manage. 

Also I’m aware wf is a power fantasy. That dosent mean balance should be thrown out the window like de did for years (Which is why we are in this thread right now arguing about it) but they are tying to reel it in now which also invalidates people giving the argument that we don’t need balance. Our devs even think we are too strong and need to be toned down. And that says a lot

I didn't say anything about buffing. I just don't like seeing players enjoyment with frames and weapons be trivialized because others join missions, see a Saryn, Limbo, Mesa, Equinox etc. and get upset for whatever reason. It happens with every frame sadly. Give it time and Gauss will get nerfed because players complained (or already have, I don't know I don't visit all the different sections of the forums) they couldn't go as fast as Gauss can in public missions. It is quite annoying. Happens with every frame. Players see something a frame does, don't like it, come on to the forums and demand a nerf. After Limbo had his sentient freezing nerfed I saw players demand a nerf to Frost for some reason. Sigh, I'm in a tiny minority of players. 

EDIT: I've been in missions with multiple Saryns, and I still don't ask her to be nerfed.

Edited May 19, 2020 by (PS4)DoctorWho_90250

[LSG501]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You are free to enlighten me, I'm not the one who stepped away entirely from the conversation.

Actually if you note I've actually been replying to other posts while you were gone and we've actually come up with workable solutions to the issue of AoE while not dismissing the fact that some people actually like using AoE...

If it did appear I'd steeped away it's more to do with the tedious nature of replying to someone who isn't even willing to consider alternative options to 'nerfing AoE' because in their opinion it's the only solution to 'improving gameplay' and essentially trying to force their own preferences onto some players who don't agree with them and actually like using AoE abilities.

Having said that I've actually gone through the phase of wanting to 'nerf AoE' a couple of years back, I didn't use or play with any AoE frames (still don't play many in all honesty) and you know what... I realised it didn't actually fix the gameplay issues.  Not to mention at the end of the day I shouldn't be trying to undermine what is 'fun' for another player just to suit my 'preferences' when in a public mission, I do after all have recruit etc... but I suppose you may come to that conclusion on your given enough time... 

 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually if you note I've actually been replying to other posts while you were gone and we've actually come up with workable solutions to the issue of AoE while not dismissing the fact that some people actually like using AoE...

If it did appear I'd steeped away it's more to do with the tedious nature of replying to someone who isn't even willing to consider alternative options to 'nerfing AoE' because in their opinion it's the only solution to 'improving gameplay' and essentially trying to force their own preferences onto some players who don't agree with them and actually like using AoE abilities.

Having said that I've actually gone through the phase of wanting to 'nerf AoE' a couple of years back, I didn't use or play with any AoE frames (still don't play many in all honesty) and you know what... I realised it didn't actually fix the gameplay issues.  Not to mention at the end of the day I shouldn't be trying to undermine what is 'fun' for another player just to suit my 'preferences' when in a public mission, I do after all have recruit etc... but I suppose you may come to that conclusion on your given enough time... 

 

I'm not alone.