Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Kaotyke]

18 minutes ago, Aldain said:

-thousand yard stare-

The unholy trinity...that which gave birth to the Wolf of Saturn Six.

*throws Wolf Beacon down at the start of a Lich 5 Defense*

[Hypernaut1]

Fortuna was pretty difficult at first...nerfed.

Truth is, any advantage the enemy is given, people will call it cheesy. 

Players dont want enemies to CC us, do too much damage, counter or resist our abilities, have armor, have weak spots, etc. Yet they somehow want enemies at a great disadvantage to somehow outsmart the player. These very same players seem to have a hard time trying to "outsmart" the enemy with a simple bubble that can be popped from a distance. 

The players WANT bullet sponges. 

The enemies in this game are actually VERY varied if you look at what they can do. We just don't get to see it too often because anytime they are effective, people rush to forums to call it unfair. 

Ancients were dangerous close range- nerfed.

Snipers were dangerous - nerfed

Bombards, manics, bursas, even rollers were once a problem- all nerfed. 

Corpus scrambas, combas were dangerous and switched up the battlefield focus when they appeared- nerfed. 

Nox was dead on arrival, but I see what they tried to do with him and he , unnerfed, would've been a problem. He rushed you, is tank, does high damage.... But wasn't even given a chance at being a PitA.

I say bring most of those enemies to pre-nerfed state and have them go after us like they were intended. That would be an interesting hard mode. Let's test player awareness again.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

*throws Wolf Beacon down at the start of a Lich 5 Defense*

-instantly abandons mission-

I have a doctor's note, I am allergic to that bull%#&$.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

throw over 50 meters away

Grenade launchers exist

[Ham_Grenabe]

The bottom line is that without taking the Warframes’ power level down several pegs, most Enemies don’t survive birth, and those that do get CC’d until we decide to push the delete button on them.

A clever AI that’s dead on arrival isn’t worth the time spent writing it.

[Watsof]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

An enemy that captures all 4 towers in Interception or prevents you from capturing them, an enemy that destroys unused life support capsules or decreases max life support levels in Survival, an enemy that deals permanent damage you can't heal until the enemy dies, those are things that could increase difficulty by increasing your chances of failing the mission.

YES! I'm so happy to see that someone inside DE is aware of this fact: Warframe missions are easy mainly because they are severely lacking in fail states (you know, the "challenge" bit that makes any game be, well, an actual game). Also I've recently made a post suggesting how base mission types could be improved by adding VIP enemies with specific objectives, different than simply "shoot Tenno skoom". 

Can't understate how important this is. By adding some points of interest and high priority enemies, the flow of battle can be radically changed for the better, I believe.

I can only hope DE will embrace this idea in the future and finally bring life to those obsolete starchart missions.

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Grenade launchers exist

They still need spawn outside the range of those frames. They'll die before they can do anything otherwise.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Grenade launchers exist

I'd love to see a grenade launcher that can shoot an Equinox through a wall before Equinox can hit 4 and kill everything.

I wouldn't even be mad, I'd be impressed that Grineer managed to defy the laws of physics.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

They still need spawn outside the range of those frames. They'll die before they can do anything otherwise.

Sounds like a spawn problem. Also as long as enemies act like lemmings nothing will ever change. Nerfing frames won't do jack. 

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

The bottom line is that without taking the Warframes’ power level down several pegs, most Enemies don’t survive birth, and those that do get CC’d until we decide to push the delete button on them.

A clever AI that’s dead on arrival isn’t worth the time spent writing it.

The idea of "clever a.i" is ridiculous when players themselves don't seem to be too clever when going up against enemies with half the advantages we have. 

The enemies need tools, not a.i. This isn't chess. 

Not unless people expect the enemy to hide and set up ambushes or something- which still wouldn't work.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[DrivaMain]

11 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Some enemies like Grineer Kuva Guardians and Sentients already have that as a gimmick.

We need more enemies like this. Not completely immune ones like Eidolons and Orb Mothers, those 2 is an example of bad mechanics.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'd love to see a grenade launcher that can shoot an Equinox through a wall before Equinox can hit 4 and kill everything.

I wouldn't even be mad, I'd be impressed that Grineer managed to defy the laws of physics.

Frames like equinox should need LoS. Also grenades should be able to blow holes in walls and Equinox should take shrapnel. But that's a dated game engine mechanic problem. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Jarriaga]

Just now, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Sounds like a spawn problem. Also as long as enemies act like lemmings nothing will ever change. Nerfing frames won't do jack. 

It's a WF problem, because that 40+ meter radius moves with the frame and players can place themselves in specific places to cover the edge of the map, so enemies literally can't do anything unless you wish to explore the possibility of enemies spawning invulnerable to abilities for 3-5 seconds or so.

[Ham_Grenabe]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The idea of "clever a.i" is ridiculous when players themselves don't seem to be too clever when going up against enemies with half the advantages we have. 

The enemies need tools, not a.i. This isn't chess. 

Not unless people expect the enemy to hide and set up ambushes or something- which still wouldn't work.

The point is whether you call it AI or tools or whatever you like, it doesn’t matter when everything is made irrelevant almost before it is perceived. With “smart” enemies or good tools, it still relies on players allowing the enemy the luxury of using their cool tricks, and we don’t. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It's a WF problem, because that 40+ meter radius moves with the frame and players can place themselves in specific places to cover the edge of the map, so enemies literally can't do anything unless you wish to explore the possibility of enemies spawning invulnerable to abilities for 3-5 seconds or so.

Nah, it's pretty much a spawn problem. And a dated map design problem. Also mechanics in which Grinneer attack. If Grineer attack like space Marines it could be a challenge. But they actually just like lemming with each other and run past Warframes. dodedoodedoo. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Tokens210]

15 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

The bottom line is that without taking the Warframes’ power level down several pegs, most Enemies don’t survive birth, and those that do get CC’d until we decide to push the delete button on them.

A clever AI that’s dead on arrival isn’t worth the time spent writing it.

but then you end up with the player with 100k energy pizzas hotkeyed, that balances that equation out by doing nothing but spamming the power the entire game

lower how many enemies are cc'd or by how long = spam cc power more

lower how much damage a power does = spam the power more

increase cost of powers = spam energy pizzas and then spam the power some more

people will always find the most simple way to complete thing, especially when we have a scaling system thats still a bit off and many ppl who play solo which then usually requires them to figure out how to be almost as powerful as a squad while alone

 

we need so much of all the above

smarter enemies

more enemies that can disable powers

keep null type enemies

enemies that can have area of effects similar to characters, that cancel ours out ( like oh snap an Amalgam Equinox just showed up guys all my powers are disabled till we kill him, but also hes using the same powers trying to nuke us)

more enemies that have auras similar to characters (ex. enemies showing up that make all other enemies reload and shoot faster or move faster similar to ospreys giving overshields, enemies that reduce our speed or armor or emp enemies that cause us to have no shields until kill, these guys can drop little stations that even after death keep our shields down till someone finds and hacks it, it also will not show on minimap or thru loot or enemy sense, u have to physically find it)

 

also should be security and such when were attacking like their bases, they know warframes exist, they have got to have some type of defense against us when were attacking them in their own bases especially

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

If Grineer attack like space Marines it could be a challenge.

What does this mean in practical terms? 

1 minute ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Nah, it's pretty much a spawn problem.

How, when we can cover the entire map? Where will enemies spawn?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The enemies need tools, not a.i. This isn't chess. 

Ding ding! Space Marines need to act like Space Marines and use crazy tech to make us bleed. 

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ancients were dangerous close range- nerfed.

Not sure to the exact nerf here, so I want call out in relation.

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Snipers were dangerous - nerfed

From what I've heard, they were dangerous because they basically behaved as any other enemy did, no/limited indicator, super high accuracy and super high damage, in hitscan. In other words, just dying out of nowhere. Is that dangerous? Yes. Is that realistic? Yes. Is that FUN? No, because there's no meaningful choices at work.

I do agree current snipers are too weak, and I'd personally change that by having them have 100% accuracy to their target laser, but have their target laser have to visibly aim and move - so you know if it's going to hit you or not. That's a fair system.

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Bombards

Homing rockets have no place in a horde shooter. Especially ones with as little conveyance as Bombard rockets, which give absolutely no indication as to whether or not they're currently tracking you,  are quite hard to see, and are highly inconsistent (I've had more than one time when getting directly behind a bombard rocket hasn't caused it to drop it's lock on me).

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

manics,

To my understanding, these were in the same place as Snipers - instant-kill enemies with minimal ways to fight back.

Now they're in a much better place, and I'd love to see their spawn rates increased.

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

bursas

Not sure what situation they were in before, though even now they are inconsistent from bursa to bursa. Some will reward movement if you jump over them by letting you hit their weakspot, others twirl like ballerinas, others just don't have a weak spot. Enemies should reward you for having knowledge of how to beat them, not sike you out with 'oh, you used previous knowledge? Well, sorry, even though I'm otherwise the exact same enemy, I don't work by those rules!"

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

rollers

They stunlocked you to death, right?  Dying for making a single mistake with no chance for recovery is not good design.

9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Corpus scrambas, combas

They were over-nerfed. The current indicator fields with the original behaviour would have been fine. They were broken because their ability disabling had no conveyance - it was literally an invisible field with no way to tell where it was that bypassed line of sight, so in some tilesets they could hide above you or below you and you'd have absolutely no idea where it was coming from.

 

My point is all those enemies were poorly designed. That's why players didn't like them. Not because they were getting killed, but because the enemy wasn't designed in a way that was fun to fight. Often because they'd punish you for making a single mistake, or even not making a mistake at all, for doing what was otherwise the right thing - some still do. Bombard rockets can still home in on you after you've dodged them - punishing you for successfully dodging it by blindsiding you.

Don't look at times when DE changed bad enemy design that was ganking players and say "oh look, people complained about this enemy that was hard". That's like saying that people who play Super Meat Boy and complain about Little Horn don't want to be challenged.

 

16 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i'll cut to the chase - that's objectively wrong and the game already proves that.

Venus Landscape Enemies work pretty well right this second. (though less Ground Smash spam that push us slightly off the ground, pls)
so saying that it doesn't work is just wrong, because it's already in the game.

 

/Thread

They're easy. Always were, honestly, they just had a propensity to oneshot players, but they were still basically just mannequins to be shot, for the same reasons that Pablo gave.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What does this mean in practical terms? 

They need more tools to use tactically. We fight on their turf all the time. 

 

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

How, when we can cover the entire map? Where will enemies spawn?

It's a dated map design problem. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Ham_Grenabe]

You could be entirely right — there may be no solution without starting over from basic concepts.

Or, say, redesigning missions and enemies so that Warframes aren’t even something they care about — only the mission objective is, and you and they are competing for it. No more trivial exterminates or defenses. It’s a breakneck race every time and you MIGHT win sometimes.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

You could be entirely right — there may be no solution without starting over from basic concepts.

Or, say, redesigning missions and enemies so that Warframes aren’t even something they care about — only the mission objective is, and you and they are competing for it. No more trivial exterminates or defenses. It’s a breakneck race every time and you MIGHT win sometimes.

This^ 

Why lemming to death. When Grineer can act strategic and not. 

No I'm convinced it's just easier to nerf than to redesign enemy ai. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Then again the enemy AI I'd like to see would require a whole new gaming engine. But nah a spaghetti coded 10 year old engine is mo bettuh. /s

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[taiiat]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

They're easy. Always were, honestly, they just had a propensity to oneshot players, but they were still basically just mannequins to be shot, for the same reasons that Pablo gave.

they do what they're supposed to do - provide Resistance, offer Diversity to keep things interesting.
mostly perfect.

just need the rest of the game to do the same thing instead of making empty excuses. 'dude with a Gun' will never be interesting, or challenging. the Enemy is simply too simple. Venus Landscape Enemies went beyond just being Cardboard cutouts with Guns.

27 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The enemies in this game are actually VERY varied if you look at what they can do. We just don't get to see it too often because anytime they are effective, people rush to forums to call it unfair. 

that's usually because those Enemies have poor or worse Telegraphing and they're also one of 40 Enemies in the room.
those sorts of Enemies could all be left (mostly) as is, if there weren't 40 other Enemies in the room. 20 other Enemies in the room would go a long way, 15 could potentially be about perfect.

Edited May 18, 2020 by taiiat

[Tokens210]

11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Not sure to the exact nerf here, so I want call out in relation.

if i recall correctly back in the day as ill put it, if more then 4 healer ancients were in eachothers aura they were unkillable, unless you got them to split up, if it grew to 6 or 8 all in the aura everything around you was unkillable

atleast thats what i think they were talking about

i believe you were also able to abuse it with nekros shadows power as if you killed more then 4 healer before casting it the shadows health wouldnt decay cause the healers aura kept raising it

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210