Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Felsagger]

 

9 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I was never left with that impression either.

I think you are precisely the way you portray yourself...All three of you.

 

Ah, so we have a bone collector now? 

Do I have to give two rat asses of what you think about any person in here?

 

Never mind then...

Edited May 20, 2020 by Felsagger

[Felsagger]

31 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

Actually DE did do that for Plains of Eidolon. Long range and powerful enemies.

But players got so salty getting rekted by mortars (slow flying but extremely damaging projectiles, that can 1 to 2 shot you if you choose to stand still) or the flying gunship of doom (which to be fair is tough if you can't aim at weak points which i guess constitutes 90% of the player base).

Or getting knock out of their AW if they fail to dodge the anti-air missiles or projectiles.
Hence DE was forced to scale back the power of artillery, air support and Grineer anti-air.

That problem eventually fixed itself because after POE as players have gotten a significant buff after farming POE like mad. 
But POE became nothing but a literal stroll in the park because whatever difficulty it had was long gone. 
 

 

If you add challenging content, people are going to put it down. If there is no challenging content, DE gets the critiques. I think people should make up their mind and decide something. At least for the sake of the game. Some users want some content they can enjoy but for that some challenge is needed. Can at least users commit to just one solution? There are great ideas everywhere but for some reason somehow the community bring them down. 

What we have is just a MEME game where we press buttons to win. It's no fun at all when everything stops being a worthy challenge. Who wants a game for just fashion frame or captura? Who wants a game that simply sells accessories and makes the stance with XP walls, Grinds, and RNG? What type of 'fun' is this? I honestly don't know if I can call it fun anymore. At least DE is not helping me to find a way. Well, they don't have to. It's my own burden anyway. 

The enjoyment of this game is quite scarce to be honest. Moreover when there is content drought. Makes things harder. But if that is the case, drift with other games until this one gets the content. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

12 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

 

Ah, so we have a bone collector now? 

Do I have to give two rat asses of what you think about any person in here?

 

Never mind then...

What is a 'Bone Collector' exactly, or rather, what purpose are you using the term for?

Why do you maintain a collection of rats? Scratch that...I don't want to know. For what it's worth, you needn't feel compelled to give me any of their assorted parts as I haven't asked for them to begin with.

I am curious... I mean you did opt to start this little exchange. 

Why are you scampering off now?

[Felsagger]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

What is a 'Bone Collector' exactly, or rather, what purpose are you using the term for?

Why do you maintain a collection of rats? Scratch that...I don't want to know. For what it's worth, you needn't feel compelled to give me any of their assorted parts as I haven't asked for them to begin with.

I am curious... I mean you did opt to start this little exchange. 

Why are you scampering off now?

You came here for a fight. 

 

Meh, I'm not in that mood anyway. Carry on. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

You came here for a fight. 

 

Meh, I'm not in that mood anyway. Carry on. 

Actually, I haven't...

Likewise, I haven't:

• Called anyone derogatory terms
• Applied derogatory slurs in this thread.
• Used sophistry to impugn others opinions
• Instigated arguments by writing in three distinct voices in this thread.

....unlike yourself.

The biggest difference in this case is that I am not running from a fight I started.

Lastly, to quote a classic: "Mood is a thing for cattle..." 

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

The game that we have now is an insult to the intelligence of cattle.

I guess it's no wonder you complain so much.

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, akrid45 said:

you think all power fantasy games doesn't have any challenge? 

I think they willingly choose to think that way.

Bloodborne, NiOh, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry and Doom are highly regarded as some of the best power fantasies out there, but that's an inconvenient detail for some of those using the power fantasy argument.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jarriaga

[ranks21]

this whole thread, all instances and concepts of what the game should and can be (like) = one big bag of nonsense. this game can never be balanced. all this thread reveals is, taking any steps towards balancing would eventually kill the game. that's the easy but hard truth.

players fantasizing how it could be like in other games is also delusional, because that is also a road this game should have never ventured on hence here we are today.

this is what I signed up for because it was original and different in many ways than most other games I have played since the 80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6cIRZlMQ3g

not Bloodborne, NiOh, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry and Doom

 

[Felsagger]

8 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually, I haven't...

Likewise, I haven't:

• Called anyone derogatory terms (Passive aggressive insults and come backs doesn't count?)
• Applied derogatory slurs in this thread.(You don't have to)
• Used sophistry to impugn others opinions (You don't have to)
• Instigated arguments by writing in three distinct voices in this thread.(You don't have to)

....unlike yourself. (mhm)

The biggest difference in this case is that I am not running from a fight I started. (Tell me what bothers you this much?)

 

Maybe the game is not that interesting to you. Who knows. 

 

8 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Lastly, to quote a classic: "Mood is a thing for cattle..." 

I guess it's no wonder you complain so much.

 

When a game pushes people to throw hands in a forum then you question if such game is entertaining in the first place. Even the art of conversation starts to be questioned. Yes, this is why many players leaves the game because they outgrew it. Shall we do something about it other than fill a while box with black letters? DE always carries that burden. They don't owe us anything. We don't have a horse running in the race either. 

Pablito may come with good ideas but in the end we get the cheapest solution that overextend the problem instead of addressing the problem once and for all with one philosophy of design. At least something, otherwise the game resumes to a cute MEME generator GUI for portable phones. I think this game is in the brink of going there. 

 

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

this whole thread, all instances and concepts of what the game should and can be (like) = one big bag of nonsense. this game can never be balanced. all this thread reveals is, taking any steps towards balancing would eventually kill the game. that's the easy but hard truth.

Then petition DE for a /killall command and cut to the chase.

Because the absolute lack of any engagement is one step away from reaching that point these days.

[Felsagger]

20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I think they willingly choose to think that way.

Bloodborne, NiOh, Monster Hunter, Dark Soul 3 and Doom Eternal are highly regarded as some of the best power fantasies out there, but that's an inconvenient argument for some of them.

Absolutely true. 

 

Maybe a perfect game that is not is Chess. 

[ranks21]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Then petition DE for a /killall command and cut to the chase.

Because the absolute lack of any engagement is one step away from reaching that point these days.

these types of fans are the bane of Warframe today= if I cant have it my way or how I think it should be to feed my ego then it isn't good. just read his/her response replying to my post for warframe to be what it has always been and retain what little identity it has. just think of his selfish concept a bit.

[Jarriaga]

18 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

this whole thread, all instances and concepts of what the game should and can be (like) = one big bag of nonsense. this game can never be balanced. all this thread reveals is, taking any steps towards balancing would eventually kill the game. that's the easy but hard truth.

players fantasizing how it could be like in other games is also delusional, because that is also a road this game should have never ventured on hence here we are today.

this is what I signed up for because it was original and different in many ways than most other games I have played since the 80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6cIRZlMQ3g

not Bloodborne, NiOh, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry and Doom

 

No one here is asking for WF to be like Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, Nioh or Doom. I even pointed that out in one of the very first posts of the first page highlighting there's no need to use the most extreme scenario such as Dark Souls in order to give us some challenge. Merely pointing out an inconvenient fact about the "power fantasy" argument (Harder games regarded as power fantasies) does not equal asking WF to be like them.  It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Also, the results from Steve's feedback form indicate that most of the dedicated community (By dedicated I mean people who care enough to even follow the devs on Twitter) show that the vast majority of players regard balance as an issue.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

just think of his selfish concept a bit.

Ah yes, it is selfish to want to actually be able to play a game I've been playing since before specters of the rail came out instead of walk into a mission and see affinity numbers pop up while I bullet jump to the extraction point, or in the case of endless missions, play a different game while somebody presses 4 to turn the game off.

You caught me, I actually wanted to be able to contribute something to a team instead of just serve the purpose of making more spawns for one person to nuke, I'm so selfish that I want to actually provide assistance to others rather than sit there like a lump because there is literally nothing that I can do 90% of the time, shame on me.

[Rakosta_Kai]

12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I think they willingly choose to think that way.

Bloodborne, NiOh, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry and Doom are highly regarded as some of the best power fantasies out there, but that's an inconvenient argument for some of them.

To be fair, these issues have been a thing since before DMG 2.0 only to be exacerbated by the changes DMG 2.0 put forward.

The game has been running at varying small degrees of the same difficulty for many years now.

I don't, personally, disagree with a hardmode/difficulty slider and have asked for it repeatedly for years now. That said, the same push-back to any ideas on the matter have been applied for years as well and I can see why. 

DE has been gating stuff behind tougher content and longer grinds for years now and what's being proposed here offers to break all that for something entirely different.

I can see folks reticence on the matter because reward offerings won't be "separate but equal" as their track record is to just move the new goodies to the hardest content instead. 

That said, It can still be done...I just don't see it being successfully done in this game without a reduction in existing player numbers. It makes me think about SWG and the way the Devs implemented all the stuff random players wished for and complained about only to have the change be so distinct that it drove players away instead.

That's just my opinion.

And I would love to find the power fantasy in MHW but Raging Brach keeps punching me back into reality.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Ah yes, it is selfish to want to actually be able to play a game I've been playing since before specters of the rail came out instead of walk into a mission and see affinity numbers pop up while I bullet jump to the extraction point, or in the case of endless missions, play a different game while somebody presses 4 to turn the game off.

You caught me, I actually wanted to be able to contribute something to a team instead of just serve the purpose of making more spawns for one person to nuke, I'm so selfish that I want to actually provide assistance to others rather than sit there like a lump because there is literally nothing that I can do 90% of the time, shame on me.

 

War Frame became a digital decorated Pachinko machine and a GUI for NOKIA, our current state of affairs. The question is how do DE sets the product back to be an actual game?  Are they genuinely interested? 

 

[ranks21]

pls, watch devstream 1 for the original concepts of what Warframe is and the vision the creators had for it. the main thing was and always is at its core a horde shooter. it has always adapted elements of other game to make it more robust.

spy

mobile def= capture the flag

conclave=pvp

def, hijack and others. surely within the various modes you can find your satisfaction to play the way you want to play. to me the only thing that warframe is missing is a true storied mode for each frame which can be extended with the various schools which would make it feel a whole lot fulfilling to play than what it is now. cant really dig up some of my old ideas from 7 yrs ago to copy paste here for you to see that good ideas were always talked about in the past and not these nonsense we have today.

[Felsagger]

DE reduced the game to a palindrome and to boot we helped them paying. 

 

 

That is the scary part of it. 

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

pls, watch devstream 1 for the original concepts of what Warframe is and the vision the creators had for it. the main thing was and always is at its core a horde shooter.

I can't believe you're citing what the "original concept of WF" was while saying that the core was a horde shooter.  Are you willingly going to ignore that the actual original concept for WF was Dark Sector, a stealth-action game more in tune with Metal Gear?

And everything from character design to symbols to the landing craft to the space ship shown in the Plains of Duviri trailer comes from it.

Talk about historical revisionism.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

But is isn't hyperbole... the majority of maps are smaller enclosed spaces and the use of ignis wraith is already pretty prevalent in lower levels, actually I've seen it at higher too thinking about it.....

And what I'm telling you, is that all game modes either have their objectives in large areas with big sight lines (defense, interception, defection, disruption, ESO), or you can bring enemies in places with big sight lines (survival). Most frames require specific conditions to do what they are good at. Most AoE frames can just ignore all that and wreak havoc without a thought. Can you see the disparity? If LoS checks are introduced, those frames would still be immensely powerful (think Revenant, his 4 requires LoS but still hurts pretty bad) without being so cheesy to play that even a literal vegetable could use them effective. But now you'll say, because that's all you've been saying in this thread, at the point that I can feel my neurons melting and dying for the sheer stupidity of what I have to read, that "people enjoy it, so god forbid with touch their toys" How is LoS so vital for enjoyment? Please, enlighten me. How are enemy dying through walls and never even reaching you fun? How is balancing those frames going to totally kill them? Do you know why people play Mesa, Saryn and Equinox? Because they are the best way to skip all the combat in this game and grind the fastest. Do you know what happens if you balance them? 2 things depending on the player. The die-hard fans of those frames will keep playing them. Because they simply like them, even if when they are balanced. The meta slaves that used them just for their cheese potential will switch to the next best options. Those that will cry are just the latter, and it's very arguable that "enjoyment" has nothing to do with it, rather the simple fact that they can't cheese anymore is what will annoy them.

Ember is a great example. She turned from a mindless, low level grinding machine to an actually fun frame with actual mechanics that can stand her own in high level missions. And I bet that those who played before the rework, still kept playing her afterwards.

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

But this is the thing, you can't go selectively nerfing some frames and not others because it's unfair on those that like the other frames.

 

The players that play those frames only lose the power to shut down the game entirely. I think that's very much fair. And it's fair to those who want to play the game coop and still want to take part in the action. And it's fair to everyone that wants well crafted content, that doesn't have to rely on gimmicks or convoluted mechanics to keep up with frames that actively hurt game design.

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Also there are other benefits of having frames like for example saryn or mesa in your squad, can you remember the last time you had to level up a frame without any offensive abilities, can you remember how painfully slow it is if you don't have a damage dealer helping you with XP.  So not only would you need to rework the AoE frames, you also really need to work on XP system (which to be fair needs a rework anyway imo) to help frames that can't do damage etc.

I facepalmed so hard that the shockwave shattered my windows. First, you don't even seem to understand how affinity works. A kill by another player in affinity range gives the frame 25% affinity. A kill made by yourself, with any of your weapons, gives the frame 50% affinity. You are actively losing half the xp by letting others do the work. That aside, an overpowered, disruptive mechanic is fine and dandy as long as you get a marginal benefit from it? Are you for real? How is that relevant to the discussion in any way? So, if suddenly we found an exploit to immediately get 10 rotations worth of rewards inside an arbitration, you'd say it's fine because if you are in the squad with the one exploiting you can reap the benefits?

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

But the thing is (I think it was 35k) the sample size is relatively small in relation to the game, this forum has over 5 million users (nowhere near all active) and the game has supposedly 35-50million players signed up.... even if you assume just 10% of the signed up is playing you're at over 3 million, you're at over 300,000 with 1% meaning 35,000 is about 0.1% of the signed up player base.

You can't do math. Not unexpected, considering how you've been responding. 300k is 10% of 3 millions. 35k is over 1% of 3 million. That aside, since those pool results represents the more active part of the community, the one invested in the game, the one spending for plat and clocking thousands of hours, I guess you can't just dismiss the data because it fits your narrative.

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

So while I agree I wouldn't say no to higher level enemies

HIGHER LEVEL ENEMIES DO NOT CONSTITUTE CHALLENGE. I think I've already implied this. Not with how combat works in warframe. Not with AoEs that can kill everything in 40m through walls. Not with hard CC that can deactivate AI on command. First you fix those, then you make new interesting enemies, then you allow for read-base combat. And with that you create challenge. Stats increase do nothing other than further enforce specific metas. 

3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

But isn't this basically what you're trying to do by removing a players choice to run an AoE frame...

You continue to insist that somehow, balancing AoE with LoS checks will inevitably kill all AoE frames. Your inability to link cause and effect is astounding.

[DeMonkey]

34 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

this is what I signed up for because it was original and different in many ways than most other games I have played since the 80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6cIRZlMQ3g

 

Really? Because the game as it stands now is nothing like the one shown here. The Warframe shown in the trailer has:

People actually aiming their shots, and even firing their guns.

No spammed abilities.

Parkour usage in combat.

Melee attacks that aren't just slide attacks.

And most importantly, a group of Tenno actually working together. Emphasis on the word "working", because the actions in the video actually require some degree of engagement, and cannot be automated with Homer's drinking bird. 

2020 Warframe is absolutely nothing like that, so whatever point you think you're making... you're not making.

Edited May 20, 2020 by DeMonkey

[ranks21]

dark secter was at the time before it became a thing in warframe, was touted on this forum for months and DE implemented it. now after all that energy/resources you can clearly see it was a wasted venture to please the masses. it is in the same boat as conclave.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Really? Because the game as it stands now is nothing like the one shown here.

You don't even need to look at that trailer, they cited DEVSTREAM FREAKING 1 which is now 7 years old as "what Warframe's vision was" and looks nothing like modern Warframe.

...Oh right I'm in selfish jail for wanting to play the game, silly me for speaking out of turn.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, ranks21 said:

dark secter was at the time before it became a thing in warframe, was touted on this forum for months and DE implemented it. now after all that energy/resources you can clearly see it was a wasted venture to please the masses. it is in the same boat as conclave.

Was that even English?

Dark Sector was a precursor game to Warframe.

Just now, Aldain said:

..Oh right I'm in selfish jail for wanting to play the game, silly me for speaking out of turn.

Bad Aldain, I'm going to shove you right inside the hole.

^{If you know what I mean.}

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

 

 

Waw, that game idea really sucked, lmao. 

 

I think this turned out into what we have now: 

 

[Jarriaga]

14 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

dark secter was at the time before it became a thing in warframe, was touted on this forum for months and DE implemented it. now after all that energy/resources you can clearly see it was a wasted venture to please the masses. it is in the same boat as conclave.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

Dark Sectors (As a game mode) were removed because they were creating conflicts between players and DE did not put checks in place in order to decrease said behavior. 

Dark Sector (As a game) was the original 2005 game that eventually became WF. That's the true original concept. Without Dark Sector, there is no Warframe.

Conclave is something most people NEVER wanted because they were fully aware of WF being a PvE game. Only 10 people will cry if conclave is killed.

Stop moving the goalpost.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jarriaga