Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

8 hours ago, 844448 said:

Not an issue until you lose that one in a million drop like condition overload, berserker or tempo royale and many rewards from doing endless missions

I have (had) multiple copies and if I do gg I can go get those cheap from the market.

 

[PatternistSlave]

Just now, Corvid said:

Why do you assume it would be a completely different game?

Because what's being described is a completely different game.

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

So wanting WF's late game to feel closer to the balance I felt it had in the early game would turn it into a completely different game?

Yes.  To maintain consistent challenge would require a complete rework of progression.  Fundamentally changing the "balance I felt it had in the early game".  Unless you're proposing every new piece of gear and enemy be stronger than previous which sounds unsustainable with the current business model while also limiting variety.

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Also, kindly quit using the buzzphrase "Power Fantasy" as if it means anything. A game can be a power fantasy without being entirely braindead.

Kindly don't try to tell me what descriptors I can and can't use.  Challenge and power fantasy are pretty contradictory.  It doesn't feel extremely empowering to be in a constant state of distress while pelting enemies with marshmallows for example.  Pumping round after round into bullet sponges I don't find extremely engaging anyway tbh.

12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You mean the same people who don't care enough to stay long enough to begin with as concurrent player growth numbers show?

These same people that have kept the game thriving for almost 9 years, yes.

[Felsagger]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

I'm glad you will, I don't mind being called out on my own incoherence, since I despise it in others it's only natural that I'd despise it in myself.

 

No one is perfect. Sometimes our brains decide  to take few days off. Don't blame yourself for it. The spirit of this community must stay healthy. At least that helps the game stay alive for a while. Founders helps us understand and appreciate the game. At least a thank you should be given for their intentions, patience and time. I got interested in the game because a veteran was kind enough teaching me how to understand the purpose of the game. 

 

What I got? A great experience. I do the same with new players and learn from them at the same time. The fresh recruits teaches us a lot of interesting things about the game that we played during the last seven years. I wish it becomes more team based on few of the activities. Having good squads is an experience everybody should have playing War Frame. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

7 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Kindly don't try to tell me what descriptors I can and can't use.  Challenge and power fantasy are pretty contradictory.  It doesn't feel extremely empowering to be in a constant state of distress while pelting enemies with marshmallows for example.  Pumping round after round into bullet sponges I don't find extremely engaging anyway tbh.

Shadows or Morridor 

dcu 

bdo 

eso 

darksiders 

DMC

blade and soul

vindictus 

mate are all games with a power fantasy and include challenge 

A “power fantasy” is a somewhat derogatory term for stories where the hero is a stand in for the reader, and displays an improbable amount of dominance. It's seen as wish fulfillment, escapism.

yet challenge can be implemented in a power fantasy. As people keep stating we don’t need to or want to take away the power fantasy of the game. Yet bring down the power creep. And balance the game for more variety 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

11 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

These same people that have kept the game thriving for almost 9 years, yes

These same people are leaving the game and further not supporting anymore as shown by concurrent players

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

It doesn't feel extremely empowering to be in a constant state of distress

I guess that's a you problem, because I don't generally feel distress in the slightest whilst playing a video game.

Perhaps you should see a doctor?

Personally however I find it incredibly empowering beating enemies that can actually be considered "enemies" as opposed to "target practice", but I realise that isn't for everyone. Some people just don't have the stomach for anything more than animal crossing, and fall over at the first metaphorical breeze in a video game. For those people I can totally see why target practice would be so empowering.

I just don't think we should build Warframe around them.

[PatternistSlave]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

mate are all games with a power fantasy and include challenge

I don't find any of the listed games more challenging than WF so I'm not sure of your point.

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

These same people are leaving the game and further not supporting anymore as shown by concurrent players

You've decided is related to a lack of challenge as opposed to the opposite.  I dunno.  The content released lately has seemed an attempt to cater more to veterans with a less than stellar result.

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I guess that's a you problem, because I don't generally feel distress in the slightest whilst playing a video game.

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum pls.  You understood the point I was making.

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I just don't think we should build Warframe around them.

"We" already have.  These are the types of players Warframe was designed to attract.

[Corvid]

12 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Challenge and power fantasy are pretty contradictory.

Wrong. Vanquish is a power fantasy (and it's my go to comparison because it is also a third-person shooter with a heavy emphasis on stylish combat and quick movement), yet it still manages to offer a challenge. Basic enemies die quickly and there are a lot of systems in place that prevent you from dying. You have access to a rocket-powered kneeslide that gives you higher mobility than almost every enemy, and can take cover behind almost anything (Seriously, even a knee-high wall is enough) if you need to.

Even running out of health just puts you into slow motion for about 10 seconds to give you a chance to find somewhere to recover (bear in mind, it's a full regenerating health system, not the shield/health system Warframe uses). You only really die if you either make so many mistakes without taking any of the opportunities to save yourself that you get worn down, or you get caught by one of the few instant-kill attacks that a couple of enemies have (which are all highly telegraphed, and all but one of them are restricted to melee).

[Felsagger]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

I just don't think we should build Warframe around them.

 

True,we should build War Frame around the strongest point it has. The parkour. 

Many other games are noticing the importance of Parkour like Titan Fall 2, one of my favorite games. 

 

When the new Jupiter tileset came in I was all over it with Zephyr, Titania, Wukong and Gauss unlocking all secret rooms in it. 

 

[Jarriaga]

24 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Because what's being described is a completely different game. To maintain consistent challenge would require a complete rework of progression.  Fundamentally changing the "balance I felt it had in the early game".  Unless you're proposing every new piece of gear and enemy be stronger than previous which sounds unsustainable with the current business model while also limiting variety.

These same people that have kept the game thriving for almost 9 years, yes.

The current business model and variety will be automatically limited by the hard and ultra hard modes DE announced. At the very minimum, the changes they said they think they'll implement will be +50 to base any level in hard, and +100 in ultra hard.

That is already anti-casual and they are doing it. I don't think casuals are the same people who kept the game thriving. WF wouldn't exist with the initial backers and founders, and putting your money on the promise of a game is not something casuals do because they are not even aware of the existence of the crowdfunding process.

And even if at some point they did contribute massively, DE believes investing in retention is worth it, as shown in their public acknowledged of attrition due to lack of challenge and the introduction of a dedicated hard mode.

[PatternistSlave]

Just now, Corvid said:

Vanquish

Not played it, so can't comment intelligently on the "challenge" presented, but Warframe should offer a unique experience, no?

[DeMonkey]

21 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum pls.  You understood the point I was making.

No, because as with every other person trying to make the point, you have to resort to exaggeration to make it look bad. If our points were actually bad, you wouldn't need to exaggerate.

Ergo, I don't understand the point you're making. No one wants to shoot marshmallows at enemies, no one feels distressed playing games with a modicum of challenge. You have no point, just hyperbole.

21 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

"We" already have.  These are the types of players Warframe was designed to attract.

No, because that implies intent. I believe DE have had no clear direction, no statement that this is the point they wanted to reach, just a mess of project management.

[Corvid]

Just now, PatternistSlave said:

Warframe should offer a unique experience, no?

Only if that experience is coherent. Warframe, as it stands, is a mess. Again, remember, challenge does not have to mean that the game is hard. It just has to not be utterly braindead.

Note the badge on my icon. I've been here since the beginning. I want Warframe to be better, because I know from experience that it can be.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Not played it, so can't comment intelligently on the "challenge" presented, but Warframe should offer a unique experience, no?

War Frame has THE BEST parkour in the market. 

War Frame has the fastest fluidity of stage traversing and good level design. 

War Frame has THE BEST set of utilities (abilities) giving you the option of chaining them in any possible way. 

 

No other game provides this. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

25 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Because what's being described is a completely different game.

It really isn't though... Before DMG 2.0 and the introduction or Corrupt/Dual Stat mods, there really was an entirely different feel engagement-wise.

In fact, my most memorable and enjoyable mission experience came from way back then in a bugged Nightmare mode.

No shields, No energy, No minmap, and Fog-of-War mission fighting the early model Keyla De Thaym.

28 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yes.  To maintain consistent challenge would require a complete rework of progression.  Fundamentally changing the "balance I felt it had in the early game".  Unless you're proposing every new piece of gear and enemy be stronger than previous which sounds unsustainable with the current business model while also limiting variety.

It needs to happen anyway...This game has always had a problem with maintaining a consistent cadence as it relates to challenge.

Either the mobs were way to easy after a certain MR, took forever to ramp difficulty, gets to a sweet spot,  and then the difficulty shoots off the chart 15 minutes later.

30 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Challenge and power fantasy are pretty contradictory.

MHW has both and it doesn't feel contradictory... In fact, being able to solo that Monster that wiped the floor with you an hour prior feels pretty doggone good in fact.

31 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

These same people that have kept the game thriving for almost 9 years, yes.

...And I am a casual player.

The difference, in this case, is that I don't see anything wrong with encouraging DE to add an additional mode that offers more challenge without adding more gimmicks and insta-gibs.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

MHW has both and it doesn't feel contradictory... In fact, being able to solo that Monster that wiped the floor with you an hour prior feels pretty doggone good in fact.

Can confirm, hell, even before World MH did this.

I quite literally solo'd my way through Tri, 3U, 4U and 90% of Generations and GenU, SoS flares are the only reason why I did less solo in MHW.

If anything lacking challenge completely makes having a power fantasy impossible because there is a difference between powerful and almighty.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Can confirm, hell, even before World MH did this.

I quite literally solo'd my way through Tri, 3U, 4U and 90% of Generations and GenU, SoS flares are the only reason why I did less solo in MHW.

If anything lacking challenge completely makes having a power fantasy impossible because there is a difference between powerful and almighty.

I'm entirely too embarrassed in my poor skills to use the SOS flares...I know I'd be tripping folks like crazy.🥺

That said, I do want to get to Safi eventually so am gonna have to get used to them at some point.

[Aldain]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

I'm entirely too embarrassed in my poor skills to use the SOS flares...I know I'd be tripping folks like crazy.🥺

That said, I do want to get to Safi eventually so am gonna have to get used to them at some point.

Honestly as long as you're not triple carting in less than 3 minutes I wouldn't worry about it, outside of very small monsters tripping isn't that huge of an issue I find.

...Unless you're a Switch Axe user who only uses Wild Swing, those tend to be a problem, but even then it isn't as bad as previous generations with Longsword.

[Tokens210]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

dcu

this one in particular i cant get behind, they did have challenge to the game, then they destroyed the game

but in a similar situation as warframe they had max level players able to do intro level story missions

cause they are great comic book style storylines that people enjoy

newer or lower level players complained

they introduced what they call stat clamping, so your stats get dynamically nerfed based on the level of content you selected while your also get locked out of loot, cause they deem your probably to high a level to need the materials, or your high enough to get them from a missions thats above your level

so i went from being able to do the barry allen missions that i liked alot just for the story, with my healer, and i could carry low levels, show them where collectables are hidden, show them how to fight the bosses invunerability states, etc etc, basically enhance their enjoyment

to now my stats are clamped so i cant keep them alive the whole time but i am high enough as a healer i can run ahead and kill the boss ending the missions almost instantly in much of the old content atleast, effectively skipping a bunch of scenes and absolutely ruining the other player experience

 

they literally destroyed all replay value of every mission, while also leaving new player to fend for themselves (cause veterans arnt doing them missions, they get no rewards, its a waste of their time) and angering old players all at once, i still believe GU 43 or 46 or whatever it was that brought stat clamping is the largest hit they ever took to player base ( if you can still find the census info from before and after that update i believe the number was just about 1 million players lost in the next 30day maybe less time after that 1 update)

 

it actually made me unable to play the game anymore at all as i run content solo just like i do on warframe and with stat clamping it means to solo as a healer atleast i need to be above the required level so itll clamp me to max stats for that level, but doing that means i get no loot, so why even bother anymore

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Tokens210

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

And that you contradict yourself by saying that you don't want to be affected by choosing not to use the more robust matchmaking tools.

No one is forcing you to queue for public matchmaking to begin with and a queue is, by definition, a waiting line.

In other words, you shouldn't have the right to expect to queue before someone who waited longer than you for a group... Any matchmaking change would surely have to account for the fact that if you have no preferences and someone else has a preference that would exclude you the person that queued first would (and should) receive preference.

Again...we are dealing in a scenario where the bulk of players would still chose no preference to get into and out of missions for sake of expedience.

Your Overwatch example is specious as the system you mention was designed to weed out toxic players and worked just fine....The problem being that people used it to weed out especially good players too in order to increase or preserve their rank... Because Warframe doesn't have match rankings this is a non-issue.

Your Fortnite example also hinged on match rankings for PVP...making it a non-issue for the same reason. Fortnite PVE has one of the lowest map clearance rates, does not require a team, and has little need for matchmaking to begin with given the low number of potential classes/players available to it to begin with. Fornite PVE is almost a forgotten mode imo. 

Both games are team based co-ops which makes them different from the bulk of Warframe's content.

As to games where it does work?

• COH's lfg system worked pretty ok in that it let prospective groups know what your class was from the outset.
• Overwatch's current soft queue is for roles and FFXIV's duty finder works much the same way and both are improvements over what we have now.
• That said, DPS in FFXIV has a longer wait...always has and always will sadly because of the number of classes filling that role. 

The challenge in both as it relates to Warframe is the need to assign roles because those aren't, strictly speaking, all that relevant here.

I think the role should be the frame itself here. 

I think that if a player doesn't want to be matched with a Mesa (purely for example) then they should have that option.

I think that if that player is generally willing to wait longer to enter a public match in order to not be paired with that Mesa they should have that right too.

I also that think that if you, playing as a Mesa, need to wait in queue for the next mission is entirely fine given that someone already waited earlier. 

Likewise, I would rather see:

• Queuing on a node not lock players into having to sit and wait for others to join them there.
• Queuing on a little used node shoots up an SOS that gives other players goodies for joining those missions.
• Players being allowed to award kudos for sessions joined via the matchmaking system with exception to members that joined as a group in any form (for example: a duo joins a group and can't give kudos to each other but can give kudos to everyone else with match-made members being allowed to give kudos to anyone)
• A simple LFG box players can click on showing the node, the potential reward, and the currently queuing players/frames.

All of these things make the process of attempting to join missions more comfortable and engaging than what we have currently...Not just for veteran players, busy/lucrative nodes/mission types. It makes life easier for the new player that needs to complete that defense mission without having to solo it and creates a scenario where a player can hang out in the fields in fortuna and fish/mine while waiting for their spot in a mission to open up. 

 

All that said... If your next comment is an argument? Save it... I am not interested in hearing whatever else you might think or whatever your aversions to my opinion are.

I don't work for DE and my track record for influencing their development decisions is horrendous.

Had my ideas been what got listened to:

• Corrupt mods would not exist to begin with and this whole thread wouldn't even be a thing.
• Matchmaking would have long since been changed
• There'd be both a Strun and Magnus Prime 😃
• An actual Frankenstein frame would already exist
• Players actually would be ranked, the Mission summary would look vastly different from what it does today with more missions being more rewarding for using lesser used weapons and running off-meta builds.
• There never would have been a ~6 month period for forced auto-blocking.
• Players would have multiple options for each of their abilities as opposed to just augments.

But DE does not listen to me ( I also do not expect them to)... So you don't need to worry about any idea I have for matchmaking ever happening because DE, historically, would rather listen to four players screaming from the rafters loudly to do something dumb (PvP and any number of random "nerfs" in this game Synoid Gammacor being one fast example) or what amounts to a straight troll with a large youtube following screaming to have their lemmings push for change and sooner releases only to have crap get released early... in the form of crap. This, as opposed to connecting the dots on long-standing pain-points in the game instead (which, to be fair, does eventually happen... but the pain-point is so old by that point it's more like a mechanic with it's own massive set of inter-dependencies).

So, kindly miss me with whatever you think I should know next because I will feel obliged to read what you had to say only to then be annoyed at the time I wasted having done so.

Accept that our opinions on the matter differ and be comfortable with the notion that we won't be changing our stances.

If you, absolutely, need (some people do) to have the last word this time around...you can simply reply with "last word".

I'll even +1 it just for saving me the time and effort of continuing to discuss a moot point.

I see you lack experience with Fortnite. What I'm talking about is at Fortnite's release, you know, the game that didnt start as a BR game but was a PvE Co-op game. The whole avoid/prefer thing from FNSTW was removed long before the BR mode was even mentioned because it had severe negative impact on the PvE game. Hence why so many left the game in the early months.

You are also off when it comes to Overwatch. There was no ranking when the system was live, it was still only quickplay back then, unlimited quickplay even. People just used the system to avoid more skilled players. It wasnt uncommon that people on your team tried to incite others to "avoid" player X on the other team just because they were a good player. Simply done to try and punish others.

And what you describe with LFG systems is a different story. Everyone abides to the same rules there, everyone actively picks their role knowing the drawbacks or benefits of the choice. That wouldnt be the case here since others would be the ones making the choices, not the game or the system itself and not each individual player. If you want a LFG-like system, then ask for that.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

None of us knows that information. You are inventing that claim up. 

It is in the leyou report of 2019 that was posted here not too long ago. 2019 had a revenue 12% lower than 2018 which is still higher than 2017 by roughly the same amount. The game also has around 5 mil active players according to that same report as opposed to 3.8 million the previous year.

[SocialFox]

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

 

This video reminded me of the half-life speedruns people were doing back in the day. I wouldn't be capable of doing that at all regardless of how long I'd try it.

[DeMonkey]

18 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That said, I do want to get to Safi eventually so am gonna have to get used to them at some point.

You've got some time till it comes back.

If people aren't using at least one level of Brace though, their fault.

[Felsagger]

lol. 

 

Same old, same old Ervin.....

Edited May 22, 2020 by Felsagger

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

War Frame has THE BEST set of utilities (abilities) giving you the option of chaining them in any possible way. 

Didnt you, in this exact thread, say that WF abilities are total trash and started to compare them to the greatness of uhm Overwatch and Titanfall?