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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


Jarriaga
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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Besides continuously misconstruing what we say and exaggerating our points?

Nah fam, totally not disrespectful.

No, sry.  It's just not.  Certainly not on the level of calling your posts "drivel".

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Of course. It's totally the mods, you're a perfectly respectable ray of sunshine aren't you.

Never claimed to be, but have been around and rarely experienced cliquey BS to this extreme.  It certainly stands in stark contrast to the game itself.

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

How exactly are "marshmallow" bullets a "logical conclusion"?

That is the danger in nerfing damage, no?  Congrats btw for including something remotely on topic.

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1 minute ago, PatternistSlave said:

No, sry.  It's just not.  Certainly not on the level of calling your posts "drivel".

Never claimed to be, but have been around and rarely experienced cliquey BS to this extreme.  It certainly stands in stark contrast to the game itself.

That is the danger in nerfing damage, no?  Congrats btw for including something remotely on topic.

Pro tip. If you’re calling someone out on derailing a thread and you continue to engage with such you’re doing the same thing. If you don’t care for his opinion don’t reply simply put

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1 minute ago, PatternistSlave said:

No, sry.  It's just not.

You're not sorry. 

And yeah, it is. This has been going on for years, the fact that people are still doing this is pathetic.

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Never claimed to be

Then why bring it up?

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

That is the danger in nerfing damage, no? 

Ah, we've gone from "logical conclusion" to "the danger".

Yeah, those are two very different outcomes genius. You aren't even trying...

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22 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

 

What have I said to you that was remotely disrespectful?  Nothing.  Because otherwise the lot of you would have reported me.  We've done this dance before.  Frankly it's pretty disgusting the way the mods have become tools of group harassment on these boards.

 

 

Sir, do you realize that you are being disrespectful in this exact post? Read your own posts. 

Edited by Felsagger
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5 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Taking your ideas to their logical conclusions and/or getting at the root of your proposals seems pretty productive to me.

When you say things like

2 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

You don't see the conflict in fostering Dynasty Warrior players and then expecting them to Dark Souls?

you are not "taking ideas to their logical conclusions", you are exaggerating what is being said in order to mischaracterise what they are actually arguing for. In other words, a strawman fallacy.

9 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

"different way" meaning what exactly?

Meaning an emphasis on not allowing certain powers to be so overbearing that they literally allow players to switch off the gameplay.

10 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Making every CC ability uniformly useless when compared to damage is limiting variety, no?

It's almost like that isn't what I'm suggesting. Making players put a tiny bit of thought into where they pop their abilities to maximise their effect does not make those abilities useless, it just encourages actually playing the game. Y'know, that thing we're all presumably here for?

14 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Nerfing damage is bullet sponges and you disagreed with anyway, no?

And where did I say I wanted to nerf damage? Damage is fine. Spammable, wide-reaching, cover-ignoring nukes are not.

16 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

If I wanted to play Destiny I'd play Destiny.

And you're the one who brought up Destiny, not us. See what we mean when we say you tend to mischaractirise our arguments? What we want is for Warframe to be Warframe, not "Mindless 4-spam: The Game". Wanting the game to be more engaging does not in any way mean that we want it to become something else, we want the game to live up to the potential of its own mechanics. If that means reining in the outliers, so be it.

20 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

3rd person shooter sounds pretty gross if I'm honest.

Uh... don't know how to break this to you, but that's kind of what Warframe is.

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Pro tip. If you’re calling someone out on derailing a thread and you continue to engage with such you’re doing the same thing. If you don’t care for his opinion don’t reply simply put

I would like to continue discussing the topic in the thread. I was learning a lot of things until that guy started derailing the thread massively. 

Sweatshawp, if you want to run few Railjack missions let me know. My PS4 account is Felsager. The current developer stream showed the new Corpus tileset. The levels looks amazing. 

 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Pro tip. If you’re calling someone out on derailing a thread and you continue to engage with such you’re doing the same thing. If you don’t care for his opinion don’t reply simply put

Yeah, but at least I'm making the effort to get it back on topic, no?

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Ah, we've gone from "logical conclusion" to "the danger".

Yeah, those are two very different outcomes genius. You aren't even trying...

Simply trying to relate to you in any sort of way.  My bad?

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

Sir, do you realize that you are being disrespectful in this exact post? Read your own posts.

Yeah I get you see any form of criticism as disrespectful.

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

you are not "taking ideas to their logical conclusions", you are exaggerating what is being said in order to mischaracterise what they are actually arguing for. In other words, a strawman fallacy.

reductio ad absurdum, but it was with the best of intentions.

6 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Meaning an emphasis on not allowing certain powers to be so overbearing that they literally allow players to switch off the gameplay.

Like what?  They've already nerfed Mirage, Banshee, Zenistar, Ember, etc.

7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Making players put a tiny bit of thought into where they pop their abilities to maximise their effect does not make those abilities useless

CC abilities are already nigh on useless as it is.  You play a lot of Vauban?  I sure don't.

 

10 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Spammable, wide-reaching, cover-ignoring nukes are not.

Have you tried playing ESO without Equinox or Sayrn?  It just doesn't work and they're not extremely oppressive outside of that specific mode.

14 minutes ago, Corvid said:

What we want is for Warframe to be Warframe, not "Mindless 4-spam: The Game".

And I'm arguing that IS Warframe.  I'd relate it more to like Diablo or Dynasty Warriors.  Which are fun games.  What do you have against looters?  This one has kept you occupied for 9 years.

16 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Uh... don't know how to break this to you, but that's kind of what Warframe is.

Not the way I play it it isn't.  The melee change allowing you to hit flying enemies?  Magnific.

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25 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

reductio ad absurdum, but it was with the best of intentions.

Purposely engaging in logical fallacies is never a good argumentative tactic no matter your intention.

Because I can do (and admittedly have done in this thread, although sarcastically) the exact same thing by saying if "challenge" isn't needed then why hasn't DE made a gun that kills the entire tileset in one trigger pull or just make every mission instantly progress to the success screen? If players are playing for loot alone why is there even gameplay in between the loot?

Hiding behind empty words, calling us negative for the sake of being negative and claiming you're the victim of "cliquey BS" when in reality your argument just might not be convincing when it engages in fallacy and literally telling people they are saying something completely different to misconstrue their argument and might rightly cause people to not accept anything you're saying on general principle.

Even Padre_Akais and SneakyErvin, despite being very opposed to each others arguments are accomplishing more than misrepresentation and fallacy because they have some basis for the argument that is based upon what is DISCUSSED and not what is PRESUMED to be said.

Edited by Aldain
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3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Purposely engaging in logical fallacies is never a good argumentative tactic no matter your intention

Here I thought we were having a friendly discussion, not a formal debate.

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

if "challenge" isn't needed then why hasn't DE made a gun that kills the entire tileset in one trigger pull or just make every mission instantly progress to the success screen?

Difference being no one is here asking for enemies to be made easier.  You are all asking for pretty radical changes to the core gameplay.  Whether you realize it or not.

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

your argument just might not be convincing

If Liches and Railjack didn't convince you content specifically catering to veterans was a bad idea there's nothing I'm going to say that will.  Am I not allowed to post for fun?

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Y'know what, I'm done responding to them. I'm not going to waste my time engaging with someone who purposefully uses logical fallacies in their statements.

Well you needed some excuse after we got right back to the old "shooter vs looter" conundrum.

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59 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

I would like to continue discussing the topic in the thread. I was learning a lot of things until that guy started derailing the thread massively. 

Sweatshawp, if you want to run few Railjack missions let me know. My PS4 account is Felsager. The current developer stream showed the new Corpus tileset. The levels looks amazing. 

 

Warframe is deleted off my PS4 again until it peaks my interest. And I don’t plan on bothering to re dl it until I feel like there is content I can actively enjoy 

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16 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Here I thought we were having a friendly discussion, not a formal debate.

Difference being no one is here asking for enemies to be made easier.  You are all asking for pretty radical changes to the core gameplay.  Whether you realize it or not.

If Liches and Railjack didn't convince you content specifically catering to veterans was a bad idea there's nothing I'm going to say that will.  Am I not allowed to post for fun?

Well you needed some excuse after we got right back to the old "shooter vs looter" conundrum.

You’re very defensive upon negative criticism and it shows how you can’t handle an opposing opinion. Calling people negative etc just based on how you handle all of these discussions it shows you’re not entirely mature enough to have a debate 

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3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Fortnite PvE is tedious...The game would be dead without BR. Don't blame matchmaking for lack of interest.

On Overwatch, Why repeat exactly what I said, leave out the important bits regarding why, and then act like you said it for the first time?  

'nuff said.

Except for the fact I brought up 3 distinct games...

Why leave out the other 2? Well... Because discussing those would negate your stance altogether.

You should have just said, "Last Word".

Ouch you really do not read what you answer to.

Fortnite PvE was very populated at start, the avoid/prefer system killed that, hence its removal.

I didnt repeat what you said. You claimed it was due to ranking, I pointed out it was long before ranking was even a thing.

The 3 distinct game still use a normal LFG system that is based on classes. It is not like a prefer/avoid system.

Not sure what you mean by left out. All 3 are covered by what I said. All 3 are actual LFG systems and not at all similar to what you want implemented in WF. Only thing different in OW to a regular LFG system is that in OW you also have the ELO variable and competative has the rank score aswell ontop of that.

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4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Quick roll call: does anyone here think the game can't be both a looter and a shooter? Last I checked, the two were not diametrically opposed.

No, I don't think everything "looter" needs to be nerfed in order for "shooter" to work properly.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

You’re very defensive upon negative criticism and it shows how you can’t handle an opposing opinion. Calling people negative etc just based on how you handle all of these discussions it shows you’re not entirely mature enough to have a debate 

I'd prefer to respond in kind, but experience has taught me it just results in a forum warning.

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And now it's all so clear. Patternist doesn't even know what a looter is.

A looter is a game in which you pick up items that enhance your character, in order to make yourself stronger on subsequent missions. That's it. There is no part of the "Looter" label that implies widespread AOE use or overpoweredness.

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3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Ok, explain to me how you propose to take hundreds of abilities/weapons/etc and force them to have similar effects on enemies without limiting what makes them unique.

If anything, more drawbacks would help make them more unique.

I mean, what has more flavour? A plague that you have to actively spread and maintain, or a flat damage dealing projectile/explosion?

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19 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And now it's all so clear. Patternist doesn't even know what a looter is.

A looter is a game in which you pick up items that enhance your character, in order to make yourself stronger on subsequent missions. That's it. There is no part of the "Looter" label that implies widespread AOE use or overpoweredness.

Your definition would also apply to CoD.  Is CoD a "looter"?  I think you're confusing the term "looter" with "rpg mechanics".  Diabloesque if you'd prefer the term "looter" be as meaningless as possible?  (Diabloesque might imply topdown tho.)

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If anything, more drawbacks would help make them more unique.

Maybe, but that hasn't been traditionally popular.  Self damage on launchers for example.  Even the knockback I personally remove with mods.  Finding drawbacks for hundreds of abilities and whatnot sounds hella difficult as well.

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Patternist apparently doesn't understand the phrase "On subsequent missions", nor the difference between a static sandbox and an expanding one. They are also apparently unaware of the existence of the ARPG game genre, and have mis-ascribed the term "looter" onto it.

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May be unpopular opinion but i'd be willing to get all my stuff that i've gathered up for years be nerfed if that would mean a mass de-grindification of many elements like getting new warframe parts, opening up the relics, lich hunting (mainly the mind-numbing thralls grind. the fight itself is quite entertaining once the lich decides to show it's dumb face), getting and re-rolling rivens, getting forma and lots of other stuff that i've missed. Otherwise as long as there's SO MANY TIMEGATES i'll be always upset if a thing that i've worked hard for gets throwed into the garbage can because it was too strong. I mean i've worked for that power so taking it away feels kind of bad.

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1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Patternist apparently doesn't understand the phrase "On subsequent missions"

I dunno man, that AK I looted off that dead guy in CoD was great. I mean, it killed enemies at a pretty similar rate, but I'm confident it was definitely a progression of some kind.

And I found it again in the next mission, which must have been because I looted it in the previous one. Surely. 

I also know for a fact that I'm not making any sense, but I blame that on the point being made, and not actually on myself.

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1 minute ago, PatternistSlave said:

Maybe, but that hasn't been traditionally popular.  Self damage on launchers for example.  Even the knockback I personally remove with mods.  Finding drawbacks for hundreds of abilities and whatnot sounds hella difficult as well.

A decently large chunk of abilities are fine - their relatively minor costs offsetting their relatively minor benefits. Others have some built in already - Limbo's only problematic ability (balance wise, not necessarily socially, but that's what I'm focusing here) is stasis, because it negates the cost of his other abilities. That being that the rift grants invulnerability to unrifted enemies, but prevents you from interacting with anything outside it. In theory, therefore, you have to  put yourself at risk to fight enemies, but it allows you to tip the scales in your favour. Limbo negates all interactions you have with enemies or the environment - regardless of if they are a hindrance or a help. Stasis, meanwhile, negates all negative interactions with ritbound enemies. Full stop. Stasis needs a drawback or a limiter, since the current one - a resource cost - is laughably low-cost given that a stasis'd enemy will give 10 energy on kill, and he's passively regenerating energy whilst interacting with stasis'd enemies.

It can be as simple as harsher resource costs or as complex as specific conditions. It could even be certain enemies or factions resisting them for non-nullifier reasons - for example, Mesa's shooting gallery not affecting melee enemies (who have no weapons to jam) and her peacemaker prioritising shield lancers, blunts, and vector shields and being unable to damage them, creating a dead zone in the aimbot.

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18 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If anything, more drawbacks would help make them more unique.

I mean, what has more flavour? A plague that you have to actively spread and maintain, or a flat damage dealing projectile/explosion?

 

Loza, sorry I'm an old school player. 

My game is the skill based game. I prefer aiming, moving, dodging, predicting paths, understanding how much time it takes to traverse a map, deal with on site decisions, understand patterns and predict behaviors. The game I seek is based on priority, position, preference, preservation and precision under changing conditions of enemies and level or stage. 

When some devices like Saryns spores are introduced in the game, that is a complete drawback for me. I want to feel pressure, feel uncomfortable and fully aware of the surroundings. Mistakes should be punished like in any chess game. You make a wrong move, the whole strategy collapses. Difficulty reduces the forgiveness of errors. Aggressive enemies forces the player take decisions and live with the consequences of those decisions. Sorry, but I'm still glued to the "projectile, vehicle, artillery" style of gaming. 

I still value contingencies or 'abilities' as last resort but then again, such abilities makes any threat disappears. 

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1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

 

Loza, sorry I'm an old school player. 

My game is the skill based game. I prefer aiming, moving, dodging, predicting paths, understanding how much time it takes to traverse a map, deal with on site decisions, understand patterns and predict behaviors. The game I seek is based on priority, position, preference, preservation and precision under changing conditions of enemies and level or stage. 

When some devices like Saryns spores are introduced in the game, that is a complete drawback for me. I want to feel pressure, feel uncomfortable and fully aware of the surroundings. Mistakes should be punished like in any chess game. You make a wrong move, the whole strategy collapses. Difficulty reduces the forgiveness of errors. Aggressive enemies forces the player take decisions and live with the consequences of those decisions. Sorry, but I'm still glued to the "projectile, vehicle, artillery" style of gaming. 

I still value contingencies or 'abilities' as last resort but then again, such abilities makes any threat disappears. 

I respect that. But, let's not forget - this game isn't only designed for you. Warframe, by nature, has to appeal to a great many people to survive and thrive. I cannot imagine a triple-A action RPG MMO is cheap to make. And at the end of the day, it is an Action RPG - although the RPG has to make concession to the action game, the action game has to make concessions to the RPG as well. The best we can hope for is that the hybridisation produces something greater than the sum of its parts - something neither alone can produce.

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1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Patternist apparently doesn't understand the phrase "On subsequent missions", nor the difference between a static sandbox and an expanding one. They are also apparently unaware of the existence of the ARPG game genre, and have mis-ascribed the term "looter" onto it.

Much fun as it is arguing semantics and/or talking about the wonder of me, I don't think the language hindered my point in any way.  You'd sacrifice rpg and/or melee in favor of gun mechanics?  I wouldn't.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Limbo

Arbitrations, Corrupted and Corpus are a nightmare and he took a hard nerf to sentients.  Only being useful in select missions is a pretty big drawback.  The Limbo hate has been overblown due to his history as a troll frame imo.

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

I want to feel pressure, feel uncomfortable and fully aware of the surroundings. Mistakes should be punished like in any chess game.

See, like I don't.  I want all to fall before me as I prance around like a god.  Can we really not both exist in the same game?

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