Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Cubewano]

5 hours ago, R.O.G.U.E. said:

More challenging AI is still a whole lot better than stupid AI, no matter which way ya slice it.

If enemies were made to live long enough to be able to utilize said ai, sure, but that would require either notable buffs to near all enemy factions, or notable nerfs to the highest power scales of our own arsenal. good or bad ai means nothing when enemies can be removed from play before they are even granted the opportunity to utilize said ai. 

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

However the way I see the game is from the perspective of the FPS player who values the behavior, nature, type and engagement of the enemy. Other features in it like the mods, casting, tenno schools are a plus. My focus is on the parkour and the best rendition of primaries and secondaries. Melee is seen as a close countermeasure. 

I think that is the problem and the reason why you expect more of the A.I itself as you expressed in other posts. This is at the root a horde shooter, a 3rd person sci-fi hack n' slash arpg where A.I's have rarely had even a remote chance to show their potential. Think of this as a third person PoE, D2/3, Grim Dawn or Torchlight and less like a first person tactical shooter or a looter shooter like Borderlands.

WF just follows the arpg setup. You have massive horde slaughter that is pretty braindead which can (could) result in a random 1HK death from bullet hell, then you have the few bosses that you can just cheese to hell. Much like how a typical day as a Necro in D3 can be summed up with the following. Buff up bone armor, run through the rift and left click as needed on mobs, toss in some of your other abilities a bit here and there for better clearing efficiency. Cast Frozen Land at the start of the boss fight and spine him to death in seconds while he can do nothing in return. Or if you play Barbarian. Enter the rift, throw some buffs, start whirlwinding and never stop, rebuff as needed during your spinning mayhem. Path of Exile follows the same system, though the real bosses (not map bosses) arent total pushovers.

Sure you can have horde shooters that arent braindead or lack tactics, like Save the World in Fortnite. You actually had to plan and think in that game and be on your toes while still facing hordes of mostly braindead enemies. What made it successful in that area was the limitation of abilities, you couldnt wipe whole maps, so a lobber could actually hang out in the back behind a building and bomb the S#&$ out of your base. And if someone went out there to take her out, a spot was left unguarded at the objective, which could mean a propane could slip by from another direction, or you get caught off guard as a charger spawned. It also succeeded by having certain game modes with very specific spawn waves, like full charger waves in one of them. Things you needed to prepare for which could turn out deadly the higher in the levels you got. They also introduced "named" enemies that were upgraded versions of normal mobs and far more dangerous. Kinda like if Eximus units actually posed a threat. Different elemental damage types also had a purpose in that game, both for and against the players.

[CoalitionOfGears]

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

I'm sorry, but if WF is an RPG, or an MMORPG at that, then so is Counter Strike, only because you can be snipe people online...

For a game to be considered role-playing, there needs to be a connection between the character class that you've picked and the game's story/setting. Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.

For a game to be considered an MMO, you need to see masses of players actually playing the game. Not just afking in front of Baro or spamming trade chat. You won't see more than three other people shooting stuff in this game at any given time.

 

At its very core, WF is a third-person online action game, and from there you can try to further classify it in terms of mechanics as a looter or - technically - co-op, even though no cooperation is required anywhere besides RJ (and even that's debatable). MMO or RPG? Gods, no.

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.
 

Emphasis mine, Oberon's moves are designed off of Paladins not druids. His regular look was stated by the Devs as having a slight druidic nature theme with the deer skull and hooves, but they are styled to look like light plate armor with a tunic on top. Smite is a pretty standard Paladin move, hallowed ground a version of the paladin "sanctify ground' which generates a section of "hallowed ground"; Renewal of a Paladin's holy healing abilities or spells; and Reckoning a weaponized version of Hold Person mixed with some slamming folk, blinds from righteousness, and of course the holy power of radiation.

Nidus actually shows some elements of what we would call a "Shadow Druid", druids devoted to the dark side or aspects of nature and often weaponizing it against those that disturb their territories.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Certain enemy unites are immune to War Frame abilities. 

They are not immune to weapons that do just as much damage as the frames

[Felsagger]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

They are not immune to weapons that do just as much damage as the frames

On higher level enemies weapons puts up more work, primary and secondary. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

19 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

On higher level enemies weapons puts up more work, primary and secondary. 

My daikyu has the potential to one shot up to level 180+ with my current build. All my melee can go well past that and still one shot my

akjagara bleeds them out before anything 

my euphona does similar then the old Tigris.

my shot guns one to two shot

my Kunais burst them down. 

Etc. even then I play ash a frame with true damage in his kit and invisibility. 

Or what if I play wisp or what if I play loki

or any frame. 

Smarter AI at this point in the game is utterly useless because of the fact everything in our kit is too strong. Besides the fact that enemies armor and health got nerfed and accuracy got nerfed on them as well. Smarter Ai doesn’t produce any results cause they will die all the same. Before they are able to properly think sense or act on anything appropriately 

[Felsagger]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

My daikyu has the potential to one shot up to level 180+ with my current build. All my melee can go well past that and still one shot my

akjagara bleeds them out before anything 

my euphona does similar then the old Tigris.

my shot guns one to two shot

my Kunais burst them down. 

Etc. even then I play ash a frame with true damage in his kit and invisibility. 

Or what if I play wisp or what if I play loki

or any frame. 

Smarter AI at this point in the game is utterly useless because of the fact everything in our kit is too strong. Besides the fact that enemies armor and health got nerfed and accuracy got nerfed on them as well. Smarter Ai doesn’t produce any results cause they will die all the same. Before they are able to properly think sense or act on anything appropriately 

 

Smarter A.I. is one component. Enemy loadout is the other. If you provide the full body armor, shields and capable weapons your enemy becomes a threat. A.I. alone doesn't make it. Depends on the Unit weapons, each unit can carry three weapons maximum. The units can carry shields or nulls and some enemies are immune to War Frame abilities. 

It's true A. I. is not enough. 

[Aldain]

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Imagine having to face a Grineer Mesa

Didn't super high level Grineer had this before they were changed due to scaling being removed from their hitscan accuracy?

[Aadi880]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Didn't super high level Grineer had this before they were changed due to scaling being removed from their hitscan accuracy?

Yeah.

Corpus nullies would also quickscope you when you enter their bubble to kill them.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

I'm sorry, but if WF is an RPG, or an MMORPG at that, then so is Counter Strike, only because you can be snipe people online...

For a game to be considered role-playing, there needs to be a connection between the character class that you've picked and the game's story/setting. Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.

For a game to be considered an MMO, you need to see masses of players actually playing the game. Not just afking in front of Baro or spamming trade chat. You won't see more than three other people shooting stuff in this game at any given time.

At its very core, WF is a third-person online action game, and from there you can try to further classify it in terms of mechanics as a looter or - technically - co-op, even though no cooperation is required anywhere besides RJ (and even that's debatable). MMO or RPG? Gods, no.

RPG = Role playing game. In WF we play a specific tenno that experiences a specific story and side stories, it also has a persistant world (to an extent). That makes it an RPG. In WF's case that would be an APRG as in action role playing game, since it uses an action based combat system and isnt turned based. In CS you arent part of a story or a persistant world, you just play one-off matches.

MMO is based on the server structure of the game. The number of player that can interact matters little, what does matter for player to player interaction in order for something to be an MMO is that it can be done sporadically and not pre-planned. Like D3 and PoE arent MMOs, yet they have severs that host everything, but they both lack sporadic player to player interaction. Marvel Heroes on the other hand was an MMO, since player to player interaction was sporadic and could happen pretty much at any time aside from specific game modes (like dungeons or raids in WoW). WF has neither a server structure of an MMO nor the player to player interaction of one. Everything here is player hosted and the limited server interaction we have is when logging in and when we enter and exit missions or visit hubs.

edit: A thing to note. Nowdays there is also the "Shared World" type of MMO, it works exactly like an MMO with no need to pre-plan your interaction with others, the game just allows the interaction on a far more limited scale. You wont see 100+ players in a zone in those games, instead you see something like 5-15 or so that can exsist in the same open instance.

Edited May 23, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[CoalitionOfGears]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

RPG = Role playing game. In WF we play a specific tenno that experiences a specific story and side stories, it also has a persistant world (to an extent). That makes it an RPG. In WF's case that would be an APRG as in action role playing game, since it uses an action based combat system and isnt turned based.

So... are you saying that every game with a plot is an RPG? How would it even work? Is GTA an RPG? Are all single player shooters RPG's?

Even Mortal Kombat has "some" story-mode, cutscenes and a sense of progression towards an end, but it doesn't make it an RPG.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

In CS you arent part of a story or a persistant world, you just play one-off matches.

Okay. So CS and WF aren't really alike, we're agreed on that. So why, in order to state as much, are you mentioning probably the only thing that WF and CS actually have in common? Apart from a few replayable quests and hoarding resources to craft the next new piece of gear, WF is all about one-off matches. Currently against silly, weak bots that die on spawn.

[SplineDrive]

4 hours ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

I'm sorry, but if WF is an RPG, or an MMORPG at that, then so is Counter Strike, only because you can be snipe people online...

For a game to be considered role-playing, there needs to be a connection between the character class that you've picked and the game's story/setting. Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.

For a game to be considered an MMO, you need to see masses of players actually playing the game. Not just afking in front of Baro or spamming trade chat. You won't see more than three other people shooting stuff in this game at any given time.

 

At its very core, WF is a third-person online action game, and from there you can try to further classify it in terms of mechanics as a looter or - technically - co-op, even though no cooperation is required anywhere besides RJ (and even that's debatable). MMO or RPG? Gods, no.

Agreed, it seems like a squad shooter to me.  Not sure how people can think it's MMO, if 4 players is mission limit.  As for RPG, does that make COD an RPG because you roleplay as a nineteen year old army conscript?  Nope

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

Smarter A.I. is one component. Enemy loadout is the other. If you provide the full body armor, shields and capable weapons your enemy becomes a threat. A.I. alone doesn't make it. Depends on the Unit weapons, each unit can carry three weapons maximum. The units can carry shields or nulls and some enemies are immune to War Frame abilities. 

It's true A. I. is not enough. 

The ai within warframe is enough however. The ai isn’t stupid it’s actually very intelligent for gaming standards to date. The issue being that we kill the ai before it’s able to act. The ai goes to cover will group into formations with  other enemies for larger firepower some enemies will try to flank you. Throw grenades a shield lancer will try to shield allies. The issue is us. 

While im not some AAA game dev working in ai perception on my game right now and learning the ins and outs of a neural network has given me insight that warframe ai is far from brain dead. We are too strong 

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

I've come to the conclusion that enemies need more animated ways to die and Weapons need to kill in esoteric fashion. Giving a much needed breath of fresh purpose on collecting weapons.

Also frames should have this as well to a greater effect than what is already here.

We are so powerful regular tactics won't work against us. So to combat that let enemies die a thousand different ways. Also throw in scripts that make the enemies look like they're trying to save themselves! 

 

[Teridax68]

While the AI in Warframe is certainly not great, I very much agree with Pablo that it doesn't really matter. The most advanced AI in the world will feel pretty much the same as what we have now if our total time spent engaging any enemy still boils down to under a second. This is why games that do want to show off more advanced AI, such as F.E.A.R., take the opportunity to balance enemy health and the player's damage so that enemies can survive long enough to do more interesting things, like flank the player, use abilities, and so on. It therefore stands to reason that, in order to make the game more interactive, it would help if we were made to actually interact with enemies, rather than kill them instantly or near-instantly, stunlock them, or ignore their damage, all of which can frequently be done while invisible or through walls. In short, in order for the game to be more fun, we ought to be nerfed just a little, at least in certain ways that make sense.

Now the problem is that a lot of players have clearly been reacting violently to the mere idea of this, because asking a player in pretty much any video game to give up some of their character's power is like asking a baby to spit out the piece of candy that's going to make them sick, only with more crying and screaming. Even when nerfs are done out of reasonable necessity and with careful consideration, there is inevitably some dragging of feet from a hyper-vocal few. Typically, the reason cited around these parts is that any nerf would be apparently damaging to our power fantasy: a game cannot offer both challenge and a power fantasy, so the argument goes, so Warframe needs to choose between one or the other. This argument falls apart rather quickly I think, because it doesn't take a lot of looking around to see that many games offer both. In fact, most games do. Without having to think very hard, I can think of literally a dozen examples:

• Doom
• God of War
• Devil May Cry
• Shadow of Mordor
• Dishonored
• Final Fantasy
• Saints Row
• Sid Meier's Civilization
• Sekiro
• Wolfenstein
• Metal Gear Solid
• Space Marine

Point being, one does not need to look very far in the world of video games to see one that manages to offer a power fantasy that doesn't rely on making the game boring. In fact, in most of these games the power fantasy is directly reinforced by the game being more challenging: not only is the player told that they're a badass, and not only do they have access to a powerful arsenal of weapons, special abilities, etc., they actually get to feel awesome when they go up against situations and enemies that reward them for playing effectively. Given the diversity of genres at play, there is therefore no real reason why Warframe cannot achieve the same, even if there would need to be some drastic changes in order to arrive at a healthier spot. Really, it's not about nerfing our ability to be powerful, so much as it should be about nerfing our ability to be powerful in ways that are inherently boring: killing enemies one isn't even aware of isn't exactly going to maximize satisfaction, for example, nor is a room-clearing button when said room-clearing button can be pressed to clear a room 24/7. On the flipside, stuff like sprinting at super-speed, landing a headshot on an enemy from a mile away, or firing a superlaser from a portal to the Sun, are all awesome things that also happen to be pretty interactive in their own right, even with no real restrictions in place. As such, I'd argue that not only would nerfing some of our abilities make the game more fun, it would in fact allow us to be buffed in ways that would also contribute both to our power fantasy and the game's enjoyment factor. I'd be very much in favor of removing Energy constraints entirely, for example, if abilities were to consistently add to our gameplay, as is the case for Harrow and Garuda's kits for example, rather than take from it, as is the case with certain kits that trivialize play without much effort.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

to show off more advanced AI, such as F.E.A.R., take the opportunity

Down to a boiling point fears ai was very basic in impentation through simple and practical coding but the effect made it seem as if they were more intelligent. A lot of the game was very scripted 

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

The ai within warframe is enough however. The ai isn’t stupid it’s actually very intelligent for gaming standards to date. The issue being that we kill the ai before it’s able to act. The ai goes to cover will group into formations with  other enemies for larger firepower some enemies will try to flank you. Throw grenades a shield lancer will try to shield allies. The issue is us. 

While im not some AAA game dev working in ai perception on my game right now and learning the ins and outs of a neural network has given me insight that warframe ai is far from brain dead. We are too strong 

That's the worst A.I you could ever imagine. War Frame A.I. is almost absent. Literally. A.I. goes in circles. "You spin me right round...."

 

DE gave us War Frames. Instead of downgrading us, their job is to make them get strong enough to fight us. That is the burden, not the other way around. Yes some War Frame may get adjustments but the enemy needs to evolve and advance too. 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Felsagger

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

12 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

That's the worst A.I you could ever imagine. War Frame A.I. is almost absent. Literally. A.I. literally goes in circles. "You spin me right round...."

 

DE gave us War Frames. Instead of downgrading us, their job is to make them get strong enough to fight us. That is the burden, not the other way around. Yes some War Frame may get adjustments but the enemy needs to evolve and advance too. 

 

As a prerequisite do you understand that smart or intelligent AI would go against a horde looter shooter. I’m all for improving the AI but we’re going to have to take a hard nerf to accomplish it in reality. In almost every game the AI is tailored to not be as smart as the player in terms of funs speak. Give me an example of ai and I’ll be able to at least explain why x does x instead of y and z 

but you just completely ignored the fact that I mentioned that the AI is able to utalize factors and tactics to take down the player. The AI will and always be dumb to an extent to grant power fantasy. Players would not like having their ash yanked out of invisibility because the ai has common sense. And will shoot where they “hear you” or enemies trying to cc a frame like valk to try to burn their energy drain. And while you can attest and say “I would” this is an issue bigger then all of our personal preferences. And no simple tune ups to the ais awareness and or code won’t fix it either you can have status immunity granted to enemies or dimisining returned addded to their kits or for new ai types to be resistant towards certain elements and effects. You could have enemies that literally think like us. But will die to the sheer power we have in seconds 

also lower level ai is brain dead for the same reason high level ai would quick scope you for no reason with pin point accuracy. 

Lower level ai is retarded to try to welcome to the players. 

You took level 2 AI Ina video to show an example of how ai works.... that’s what I call strawmaning 

Edited May 23, 2020 by (PS4)sweatshawp

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

As a prerequisite do you understand that smart or intelligent AI would go against a horde looter shooter. I’m all for improving the AI but we’re going to have to take a hard nerf to accomplish it in reality. In almost every game the AI is tailored to not be as smart as the player in terms of funs speak. Give me an example of ai and I’ll be able to at least explain why x does x instead of y and z 

Fine, then you have this: 

Shooting range is boring. The enemy takes the bullet. The enemy gets the punishment, the enemy doesn't react dynamically. Intelligent A.I is the reason why you have to prioritize, preserve, position and have a preference. A.I. behavior should challenge the player instead of exercising target practice. 

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

but you just completely ignored the fact that I mentioned that the AI is able to utilize factors and tactics to take down the player.

DE's A.I. is a joke. 

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

The AI will and always be dumb to an extent to grant power fantasy. Players would not like having their ash yanked out of invisibility because the ai has common sense. And will shoot where they “hear you” or enemies trying to cc a frame like valk to try to burn their energy drain. And while you can attest and say “I would” this is an issue bigger then all of our personal preferences. And no simple tune ups to the ais awareness and or code won’t fix it either you can have status immunity granted to enemies or diminishing returned addded to their kits or for new ai types to be resistant towards certain elements and effects. You could have enemies that literally think like us. But will die to the sheer power we have in seconds 

 

A tight win tastes much better than an easy win.

Yes the problem consists of few variables. A.I, level design, level dynamical changes under some happenings, enemy types and enemy load outs. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

Fine, then you have this: 

Shooting range is boring. The enemy takes the bullet. The enemy gets the punishment, the enemy doesn't react dynamically. Intelligent A.I is the reason why you have to prioritize, preserve, position and have a preference. A.I. behavior should challenge the player instead of exercising target practice. 

 

DE's A.I. is a joke. 

 

A tight win tastes much better than an easy win.

Yes the problem consists of few variables. A.I, level design, level dynamical changes under some happenings, enemy types and enemy load outs. 

You ignored where I stated you used level 2 ai to say the ai is braindead in general. 

Scott himself stated the ai will blatantly miss shots and the higher the level the more accurate they were. If I’m correct they would send “warning shots” and would do it less frequently to not at all the higher level you get in enemies. 

Ai and impact work completely different as the impact is animation based. The feel and hefty ness of an impact is determined on how the animation is portrayed via impact of it. 

Reacting dynamically is something that higher levels do to an extent. Implementing said tactics as I mentioned above.

 

DEs ai is pretty fair and actually at game standards. But this is froma. Dev who is also a consumer. So I can say I have a smidigen more insight on how these things work.

 

but all of that is negated when you have a frame will nuke the entire map before and enemy can react or kill one to a couple hundred in the blink of an eye

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

You ignored where I stated you used level 2 ai to say the ai is braindead in general. 

Scott himself stated the ai will blatantly miss shots and the higher the level the more accurate they were. If I’m correct they would send “warning shots” and would do it less frequently to not at all the higher level you get in enemies. 

Wrong way to do it. 

AI should be uncanny. The AI must teach lessons and get tactical. The AI must feel human sometimes. The player must experience stress in combat. Yes having a powerful War Frame gives you the edge but if you abuse your luck you bite the dust. This should be the reasoning instead of waiting 2 hours for the real deal. An enemy should show overwhelming strength in numbers, weapons and fire power. We are the ones with the parkour and abilities in our advantage. 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Ai and impact work completely different as the impact is animation based. The feel and hefty ness of an impact is determined on how the animation is portrayed via impact of it. 

Reacting dynamically is something that higher levels do to an extent. Implementing said tactics as I mentioned above.

When I speak about the level, the subject in discussion is the architecture of the level or stage. A dynamical stage has changing platforms, varied paths and transformation due certain actuators. A.I. can change the level scheme like opening gates or clossing certain doors, use the level architectural properties like taking cover while they pull off team tactics. 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

DEs ai is pretty fair and actually at game standards. But this is froma. Dev who is also a consumer. So I can say I have a smidigen more insight on how these things work.

 

but all of that is negated when you have a frame will nuke the entire map before and enemy can react or kill one to a couple hundred in the blink of an eye

DE's AI, I say it again, is a joke. 

 

On the other hand:

Problem: Nuke frames SHOULD NOT exist. 

Problem: Invulnerable frames SHOULD NOT exist. 

Problem: Area of Effect frames SHOULD NOT exist. 

 

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Wrong way to do it. 

AI should be uncanny. The AI must teach lessons and get tactical. The AI must feel human sometimes. The player must experience stress in combat. Yes having a powerful War Frame gives you the edge but if you abuse your luck you bite the dust. This should be the reasoning instead of waiting 2 hours for the real deal. An enemy should show overwhelming strength in numbers, weapons and fire power. We are the ones with the parkour and abilities in our advantage. 

When I speak about the level, the subject in discussion is the architecture of the level or stage. A dynamical stage has changing platforms, varied paths and transformation due certain actuators. A.I. can change the level scheme like opening gates or clossing certain doors, use the level architectural properties like taking cover while they pull off team tactics. 

DE's AI, I say it again, is a joke. 

 

On the other hand:

Problem: Nuke frames SHOULD NOT exist. 

Problem: Invulnerable frames SHOULD NOT exist. 

Problem: Area of Effect frames SHOULD NOT exist. 

 

 

 

 

 

And give me an example of how ai should be then? 

Because this isn’t division. The game is tune to more diablo ask enemies. They don’t have to be tactical as you demand. As they are there to overwhelm you in such a large setting.  

Warframes maps are randomly generated the simple fix to this is them... updating the tile sets to which they are doing 

also to the waiting two hours for the real deal ais have common sense outside of the starter planets even then accuracy has been merfed

regaduless of how smart the ai is it’s usless and if I wanted to play a tactical shooter I’d play.. d2 division 2 ghost recon. Etc the idea of turning wf into a tactical shooter would have to remove the movement we have within our current system. But nobody understands that. 

[rockscl]

En 17/5/2020 a las 17:26, Jarriaga dijo:

As Pablo pointed out, most players here would not accept massive changes and nerfs to area nuking and CC, so literally, what else can they do? 

They should just let the in game factions have what they would actualy do: develop technology to counter the tenno, at this point they should be already able to manipulate electricity, spores, etc, thats just obvious since they are already into space time warping, the actual problem with unbalance is that DE has stuck to their BS mechanics and have been very hard to make any rationale about their internal physics, do you realize that the Grinner soldiears could just wear rubber clothing and that would be enough to avoid Volt AOE? 

 

So the problem is NOT about AI, its about the almost zero reaction of technological development in WF Universe

Edited May 24, 2020 by rockscl

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

And give me an example of how ai should be then? 

Since War Frame is a strict Horde Loot action/shooter lets throw it in with these dogs. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Because this isn’t division. The game is tune to more diablo esque enemies. They don’t have to be tactical as you demand. As they are there to overwhelm you in such a large setting.  

Division 2 is a technical tactical shooter. I don't even mention it. War Frame reduces the horde matches to spasmodic spamming casting circus parties. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Warframes maps are randomly generated the simple fix to this is them... updating the tile sets to which they are doing 

That is lack of compromise. Yes, tile sets should not depend on the crutch of permutations and combinations of generated building blocks. Maps should have great design and each one should be different. In earth each map feels the same, for example. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

 

regardless of how smart the ai is it’s usless and if I wanted to play a tactical shooter I’d play.. d2 division 2 ghost recon. Etc the idea of turning wf into a tactical shooter would have to remove the movement we have within our current system. But nobody understands that. 

No, good AI is not useless. Good AI reads the frames, decides a behavior pattern, adjust pursuit curves and populate the stage according to the tier of frames. First few waves the enemy performs reconnaissance understanding what frames arrived at the scene. Then as time passes by, the Green engineer team calls for special teams and troops according to a particular tier of frames. Some enemies nullify War Frame abilities. Other set of enemies are immune to Nova slow or fast, Gara Wall, Khora cage and Limbo cataclysm. These attack in coordination when those frames activates their abilities. Enemies must recognize the War Frame used and communicate. Your advantage is that you see the tactic on the move since you intercept their 'radio' communication very similar to OverWatch, IMO.