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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I respect that. But, let's not forget - this game isn't only designed for you. Warframe, by nature, has to appeal to a great many people to survive and thrive. I cannot imagine a triple-A action RPG MMO is cheap to make. And at the end of the day, it is an Action RPG - although the RPG has to make concession to the action game, the action game has to make concessions to the RPG as well. The best we can hope for is that the hybridisation produces something greater than the sum of its parts - something neither alone can produce.

I'm sure that such game is not designed for me. I found a play style in it. That's why I had seven years playing the game. The design of the game is one of the best feature in it. Many game play styles are accommodated in the game. There are many War Frames that defines those styles and approaches. I was a PC, PS4 player that joined the game. The game provided me the taste of my interests. After that I moved towards Dark Souls, Over Watch and many other games including War Frame. 

Casting and synergy RPG mechanics was new for me. To be honest I don't repent myself of getting that part of the game. Now I play many other games because of it. My traditions are the old school of skills and load outs. War Frame carried that spirit quite well among many other experiences. Yes the peculiarity of the product was DE's winning card and their success, no one denies that. However the way I see the game is from the perspective of the FPS player who values the behavior, nature, type and engagement of the enemy. Other features in it like the mods, casting, tenno schools are a plus. My focus is on the parkour and the best rendition of primaries and secondaries. Melee is seen as a close countermeasure. 

No game should be designed for my likes. Such game doesn't exist. I find experiences in games that calls my interest. No game has them all. That's why more than one game. 

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On 2020-05-17 at 3:36 PM, Jarriaga said:

It's not that easy.

Is it though? People keep buying games like Dynasty Warrior. You are aware that warframe has been a power fantasy game and to this day its STILL in the top 10 games in steam. 


It's been that way for years. YEARS. The people who complain about challenge need to have better suggestions, and embrace things like raids, raid bosses, and other content instead of wanting everything nerfed all the time. 

Yet despite all the people's complaints, warframe has its problems. But people rather complain in order of their feelings then make the game better.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Nerfing ourselves doesn't work. The main conceit of this thread is that Pablo, one of the lead Warframe designers, has put forward the idea that DE can't make more interesting AI, encounters, whatever, with the current Warframe design. Voluntary nerfing doesn't apply, because we can undo that whenever we want as well, and that means DE have to assume that we're going into any encounter with full power. I.e., that we can turn off said encounter with no downsides. When I say that we need to respect each others playstyles, I mean in terms of what we suggest. This thread is full of people arguing about their own extreme end of the spectrum - about making Warframe into a far more hardcore action game vs keeping it the borderline cookie clicker it is now. The few voices speaking up that, no, that's not necessary tend to get buried ,or others actively fan the flames against them. 

Warframe cannot prosper on the path it is now - the path of just being a game where you fiddle whilst the world burns. That's the path its on and it is flagging. Not dying, not yet, but steam charts show a undeniable decline - one we can assume is matched on most platforms. Whilst its fortunes may have turned, that uptick has only happened during the lockdown - there's no guarantee it won't go right back to haemorrhaging players again, and indeed, it's likely to. 

Likewise, Warframe cannot survive as a hardcore action game. Abnegation - playing the game to relax, unwind and de-stress without thinking will always be a part of it, and should always - just grinding out a new weapon, a couple nightwave levels or even just screwing around in captura dressing up your frames is as much a core of the game as the combat is.

Warframe cannot survive on mindless content alone. But it cannot survive without it either. Both address psychological needs that humans have - the drive to succeed, and the need to relax. The goal is to create a game where both kinds of content can co-exist. This is not the game we have now - Warframe, as it is now, is a game where they are clashing. Mindless gameplay styles outperform hardcore gameplay styles, making the 'hardcore' content play mindlessly. And even some of the hardcore content is muscling in on abnegation gameplay - there's a reason things like 1-hour endurance in nightwave got pushback.

 

 

Precise. 

 

War Frame is a strange creature that is rarely conceived. It requires different approaches and combined effort on balancing, content and accessories. This GAAS F2P game is a service. It requires maintenance and constant client survey and contact. That's why we have the dev streams and prime times. Too much difficulty the product gets hurt, too much apparel the product gets hurt, non challenging content the product get hurt. DE is dealing with emphasis and interest on three fronts at the same time while they work with the machinery of War Frame code that is characterized by CACE nature of it. 

At this point I don't have any positive or negative expectation. I roll with the new games while my old War Frame game gets better updates and advances throughout DE's and the community brainstorming. It certainly will get better with age. It will NOT be the game we want but a game that certainly will enjoy. Everyone of us perceives it in a particular way. It's inevitable. I will not expect much out of it. I'll enjoy whatever the game throws at us while we point out the bugs and the minor details. 

 

 

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(Skipped reading 44 pages of topic, but I think I grasped the issues. Hopefully)

 

Now let's just hope that DE doesn't go the other way around: so instead nerfing frame's abilities, they give them to grineers!

(That's actually a joke, but I truly fear someone at DE would see this foolish idea as a way to increase difficulty without nerfing stuff. DE, don't. It's a recipe for frustration)

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I'm okay with us players getting nerfed. Combat is quite frankly boring when enemies pose no risk or challenge. 

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37 minutes ago, medomai said:

Combat is quite frankly boring when enemies pose no risk or challenge. 

 

Can't disagree with such fact. That's many of us are gathered here talking about various perspectives and solutions on the current problem. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kappa83 said:

Now let's just hope that DE doesn't go the other way around: so instead nerfing frame's abilities, they give them to grineers!

 

Imagine having to face a Grineer Mesa or Saryn. That is stuff of nightmares

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, they already did. Liches are exactly that. And it works only to an extent. The base concept is great: some abilities actually need your attention (I've mainly faced radiation, fire and electricity liches, so I don't know about the others), like the oberon-like carpet, fireblast, and the knock-back laser beam of death (well most of this stuff can be ignored with some of the tank frames, but I digress). The issue is that they are badly conveyed. Most of the time the casting is near-instant, so you either have enough EHP to survive, just get plain lucky, or die. Once again, the player has little control, and the only thing that matters is your load out. While being buggy as hell, the melee grab is, unpopular opinion, probably the best mechanic a lich has. It's very dangerous, almost insta-killing every squishy frame. However, it is telegraphed and avoidable with a well timed roll or bullet jump. It adds a risk/reward loop to melee: being (often enough) our highest damaging tool, the risk of being killed adds an incentive to use guns and go in for melee just when the opportunity arises, and that's great. Single-handedly, that mechanic gives meaning to most of our equipment instead of allowing us to zero-in on the single best tool. If the telegraphed nature were to be added to their other abilities, maybe with a subsequent danger increase, it could promote higher variety in frame usage because suddenly a lack of tankiness could be compensated with skill and speed. Wow that was a long tangent, I'm sorry.

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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More challenging AI is still a whole lot better than stupid AI, no matter which way ya slice it.

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8 minutes ago, R.O.G.U.E. said:

More challenging AI is still a whole lot better than stupid AI, no matter which way ya slice it.

They all die before they can actually be ai so how would it work 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

They all die before they can actually be ai so how would it work 

Certain enemy unites are immune to War Frame abilities. 

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again. I dont think it's an AI difficulty issue, it's an issue of how to make rewarding* and challenging content that can keep nolifers and then the more casual players entertained with gameplay loops, reward tie-ins and proper incentive with no fomo tied in. build a gameplay loop people like and I promise they'll figure out how to balance it. why? it's hard to ignore something if people like it and its profitable? boom.

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5 hours ago, R.O.G.U.E. said:

More challenging AI is still a whole lot better than stupid AI, no matter which way ya slice it.

If enemies were made to live long enough to be able to utilize said ai, sure, but that would require either notable buffs to near all enemy factions, or notable nerfs to the highest power scales of our own arsenal. good or bad ai means nothing when enemies can be removed from play before they are even granted the opportunity to utilize said ai. 

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8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

However the way I see the game is from the perspective of the FPS player who values the behavior, nature, type and engagement of the enemy. Other features in it like the mods, casting, tenno schools are a plus. My focus is on the parkour and the best rendition of primaries and secondaries. Melee is seen as a close countermeasure. 

I think that is the problem and the reason why you expect more of the A.I itself as you expressed in other posts. This is at the root a horde shooter, a 3rd person sci-fi hack n' slash arpg where A.I's have rarely had even a remote chance to show their potential. Think of this as a third person PoE, D2/3, Grim Dawn or Torchlight and less like a first person tactical shooter or a looter shooter like Borderlands.

WF just follows the arpg setup. You have massive horde slaughter that is pretty braindead which can (could) result in a random 1HK death from bullet hell, then you have the few bosses that you can just cheese to hell. Much like how a typical day as a Necro in D3 can be summed up with the following. Buff up bone armor, run through the rift and left click as needed on mobs, toss in some of your other abilities a bit here and there for better clearing efficiency. Cast Frozen Land at the start of the boss fight and spine him to death in seconds while he can do nothing in return. Or if you play Barbarian. Enter the rift, throw some buffs, start whirlwinding and never stop, rebuff as needed during your spinning mayhem. Path of Exile follows the same system, though the real bosses (not map bosses) arent total pushovers.

Sure you can have horde shooters that arent braindead or lack tactics, like Save the World in Fortnite. You actually had to plan and think in that game and be on your toes while still facing hordes of mostly braindead enemies. What made it successful in that area was the limitation of abilities, you couldnt wipe whole maps, so a lobber could actually hang out in the back behind a building and bomb the S#&$ out of your base. And if someone went out there to take her out, a spot was left unguarded at the objective, which could mean a propane could slip by from another direction, or you get caught off guard as a charger spawned. It also succeeded by having certain game modes with very specific spawn waves, like full charger waves in one of them. Things you needed to prepare for which could turn out deadly the higher in the levels you got. They also introduced "named" enemies that were upgraded versions of normal mobs and far more dangerous. Kinda like if Eximus units actually posed a threat. Different elemental damage types also had a purpose in that game, both for and against the players.

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Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

I'm sorry, but if WF is an RPG, or an MMORPG at that, then so is Counter Strike, only because you can be snipe people online...

For a game to be considered role-playing, there needs to be a connection between the character class that you've picked and the game's story/setting. Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.

For a game to be considered an MMO, you need to see masses of players actually playing the game. Not just afking in front of Baro or spamming trade chat. You won't see more than three other people shooting stuff in this game at any given time.

 

At its very core, WF is a third-person online action game, and from there you can try to further classify it in terms of mechanics as a looter or - technically - co-op, even though no cooperation is required anywhere besides RJ (and even that's debatable). MMO or RPG? Gods, no.

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1 hour ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.
 

Emphasis mine, Oberon's moves are designed off of Paladins not druids. His regular look was stated by the Devs as having a slight druidic nature theme with the deer skull and hooves, but they are styled to look like light plate armor with a tunic on top. Smite is a pretty standard Paladin move, hallowed ground a version of the paladin "sanctify ground' which generates a section of "hallowed ground"; Renewal of a Paladin's holy healing abilities or spells; and Reckoning a weaponized version of Hold Person mixed with some slamming folk, blinds from righteousness, and of course the holy power of radiation.

Nidus actually shows some elements of what we would call a "Shadow Druid", druids devoted to the dark side or aspects of nature and often weaponizing it against those that disturb their territories.

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Certain enemy unites are immune to War Frame abilities. 

They are not immune to weapons that do just as much damage as the frames

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

They are not immune to weapons that do just as much damage as the frames

On higher level enemies weapons puts up more work, primary and secondary. 

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19 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

On higher level enemies weapons puts up more work, primary and secondary. 

My daikyu has the potential to one shot up to level 180+ with my current build. All my melee can go well past that and still one shot my

akjagara bleeds them out before anything 

my euphona does similar then the old Tigris.

my shot guns one to two shot

my Kunais burst them down. 

Etc. even then I play ash a frame with true damage in his kit and invisibility. 

Or what if I play wisp or what if I play loki

or any frame. 

Smarter AI at this point in the game is utterly useless because of the fact everything in our kit is too strong. Besides the fact that enemies armor and health got nerfed and accuracy got nerfed on them as well. Smarter Ai doesn’t produce any results cause they will die all the same. Before they are able to properly think sense or act on anything appropriately 

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

My daikyu has the potential to one shot up to level 180+ with my current build. All my melee can go well past that and still one shot my

akjagara bleeds them out before anything 

my euphona does similar then the old Tigris.

my shot guns one to two shot

my Kunais burst them down. 

Etc. even then I play ash a frame with true damage in his kit and invisibility. 

Or what if I play wisp or what if I play loki

or any frame. 

Smarter AI at this point in the game is utterly useless because of the fact everything in our kit is too strong. Besides the fact that enemies armor and health got nerfed and accuracy got nerfed on them as well. Smarter Ai doesn’t produce any results cause they will die all the same. Before they are able to properly think sense or act on anything appropriately 

 

Smarter A.I. is one component. Enemy loadout is the other. If you provide the full body armor, shields and capable weapons your enemy becomes a threat. A.I. alone doesn't make it. Depends on the Unit weapons, each unit can carry three weapons maximum. The units can carry shields or nulls and some enemies are immune to War Frame abilities. 

It's true A. I. is not enough. 

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9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Imagine having to face a Grineer Mesa

Didn't super high level Grineer had this before they were changed due to scaling being removed from their hitscan accuracy?

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5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Didn't super high level Grineer had this before they were changed due to scaling being removed from their hitscan accuracy?

Yeah.

Corpus nullies would also quickscope you when you enter their bubble to kill them.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

I'm sorry, but if WF is an RPG, or an MMORPG at that, then so is Counter Strike, only because you can be snipe people online...

For a game to be considered role-playing, there needs to be a connection between the character class that you've picked and the game's story/setting. Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.

For a game to be considered an MMO, you need to see masses of players actually playing the game. Not just afking in front of Baro or spamming trade chat. You won't see more than three other people shooting stuff in this game at any given time.

At its very core, WF is a third-person online action game, and from there you can try to further classify it in terms of mechanics as a looter or - technically - co-op, even though no cooperation is required anywhere besides RJ (and even that's debatable). MMO or RPG? Gods, no.

RPG = Role playing game. In WF we play a specific tenno that experiences a specific story and side stories, it also has a persistant world (to an extent). That makes it an RPG. In WF's case that would be an APRG as in action role playing game, since it uses an action based combat system and isnt turned based. In CS you arent part of a story or a persistant world, you just play one-off matches.

MMO is based on the server structure of the game. The number of player that can interact matters little, what does matter for player to player interaction in order for something to be an MMO is that it can be done sporadically and not pre-planned. Like D3 and PoE arent MMOs, yet they have severs that host everything, but they both lack sporadic player to player interaction. Marvel Heroes on the other hand was an MMO, since player to player interaction was sporadic and could happen pretty much at any time aside from specific game modes (like dungeons or raids in WoW). WF has neither a server structure of an MMO nor the player to player interaction of one. Everything here is player hosted and the limited server interaction we have is when logging in and when we enter and exit missions or visit hubs.

edit: A thing to note. Nowdays there is also the "Shared World" type of MMO, it works exactly like an MMO with no need to pre-plan your interaction with others, the game just allows the interaction on a far more limited scale. You wont see 100+ players in a zone in those games, instead you see something like 5-15 or so that can exsist in the same open instance.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

RPG = Role playing game. In WF we play a specific tenno that experiences a specific story and side stories, it also has a persistant world (to an extent). That makes it an RPG. In WF's case that would be an APRG as in action role playing game, since it uses an action based combat system and isnt turned based.

So... are you saying that every game with a plot is an RPG? How would it even work? Is GTA an RPG? Are all single player shooters RPG's?

Even Mortal Kombat has "some" story-mode, cutscenes and a sense of progression towards an end, but it doesn't make it an RPG.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

In CS you arent part of a story or a persistant world, you just play one-off matches.

Okay. So CS and WF aren't really alike, we're agreed on that. So why, in order to state as much, are you mentioning probably the only thing that WF and CS actually have in common? Apart from a few replayable quests and hoarding resources to craft the next new piece of gear, WF is all about one-off matches. Currently against silly, weak bots that die on spawn.

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4 hours ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Regarding the topic of WF's genre...

I'm sorry, but if WF is an RPG, or an MMORPG at that, then so is Counter Strike, only because you can be snipe people online...

For a game to be considered role-playing, there needs to be a connection between the character class that you've picked and the game's story/setting. Oberon may play like a Druid, but as fas as the game's system is concerned, it doesn't matter whether you've played stealthily through every quest and node or nuked everything with Equinox's 4.

For a game to be considered an MMO, you need to see masses of players actually playing the game. Not just afking in front of Baro or spamming trade chat. You won't see more than three other people shooting stuff in this game at any given time.

 

At its very core, WF is a third-person online action game, and from there you can try to further classify it in terms of mechanics as a looter or - technically - co-op, even though no cooperation is required anywhere besides RJ (and even that's debatable). MMO or RPG? Gods, no.

Agreed, it seems like a squad shooter to me.  Not sure how people can think it's MMO, if 4 players is mission limit.  As for RPG, does that make COD an RPG because you roleplay as a nineteen year old army conscript?  Nope

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

Smarter A.I. is one component. Enemy loadout is the other. If you provide the full body armor, shields and capable weapons your enemy becomes a threat. A.I. alone doesn't make it. Depends on the Unit weapons, each unit can carry three weapons maximum. The units can carry shields or nulls and some enemies are immune to War Frame abilities. 

It's true A. I. is not enough. 

The ai within warframe is enough however. The ai isn’t stupid it’s actually very intelligent for gaming standards to date. The issue being that we kill the ai before it’s able to act. The ai goes to cover will group into formations with  other enemies for larger firepower some enemies will try to flank you. Throw grenades a shield lancer will try to shield allies. The issue is us. 

While im not some AAA game dev working in ai perception on my game right now and learning the ins and outs of a neural network has given me insight that warframe ai is far from brain dead. We are too strong 

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