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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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8 hours ago, Cloud said:

Except the fact that without balance you don't play a game, you play a sandbox. 

As long as it's fun, I don't exactly care what you categorize it as. And Warframe right now is really fun to play. So let it be a sandbox for all I care, and screw balance, cause a game is way more fun when it's broken and insanely ridiculous than when it is in complete balance.

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the entire thought if you as a player getting weaker is ubsurd

in the old days warframes were assassins going against the odds

now it is a story that is so stupid you want to see an end game so you can finally stop playing

if you want to fix the game 

remove all your special cards or make them time limited

bring the warframes back to what they were 

with out all the cheating cards available

 

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There will always be cheese tactics, which imho doesn't mean it's not something worth pursuing (more challenge).

In the end it doesn't have to be the toughest game ever, but WF does need to have alternatives to running lvl 5-40 missions where you literally cannot die and having to stay an hour in an endless mission to get a semblance of challenge. I mean right now what's the point of putting 5 formas in something when there's no content that requires that DPS and survivability.

You could also restrict access to some wpns and abilities in hard mode, or making them less efficient, that way people can still enjoy them in normal mode, but can't spam and abuse them to facepalm endgame content (kinda like ESO disables ability spamming). Just don't go nerf all the cool stuff to make hard mode work plz.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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6 hours ago, alenkiss said:

 the "we need 100% super hard content all the time" group can gtfo.

Maybe we are generalizing things way too much. In here we don't want hard content all the time. We want improvements on the content such as enemy A.I, NPCs and better designed levels. The game content, specially the hordes or the enemy, are the worst. It needs urgent attention because people are getting bored of it. DE has all the assets and ingredients but the way they are handling them makes people get bored of the game. 

 

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

So can the "we need to over-exaggerate every point you make" group. 

Well served justice. 

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14 minutes ago, Badpill said:

the entire thought if you as a player getting weaker is ubsurd

in the old days warframes were assassins going against the odds

now it is a story that is so stupid you want to see an end game so you can finally stop playing

if you want to fix the game 

remove all your special cards or make them time limited

bring the warframes back to what they were 

with out all the cheating cards available

 

None of that is true as of the story. Warframes are and were deployed as super soliders, the pinnacle of fighting forces for The Orokin Elite trained by Dax like Teshin. It would be like like a comic book superhero fighting the mooks of a local gang when used to fighting in space wars against a race of genocide machines or acting as cleanup for entire populations put to Technocyte as living weapons. The thing that made the players weaker in proportion, you just starting the game? Was the Grineer actively somehow getting your arsenal, mods, and Orbiter systems when they only had Ordis's Liset on Earth, or even farther back, had already looted the rest of the shrine, or the warframe you woke up in not even being among your geared warframes, stashed in a find around Pluto. Enemy level stats are in-universe also from mods, why would anyone compare an unequipped unmodded warframe against leveled enemies unless they simply don't have the progression?

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2 minutes ago, Urlan said:

None of that is true as of the story. Warframes are and were deployed as super (SONIC THE HEDGEHOG), the pinnacle of (SPEEDING) for The Orokin Elite trained by Dax like Teshin. It would be like like a comic book superhero fighting the mooks of a local gang when used to fighting in space wars against a race of genocide machines or acting as cleanup for entire populations put to Technocyte as living weapons. The thing that made the players weaker in proportion, you just starting the game? Was the Grineer actively somehow getting your arsenal, mods, and Orbiter systems when they only had Ordis's Liset on Earth, or even farther back, had already looted the rest of the shrine, or the warframe you woke up in not even being among your geared warframes, stashed in a find around Pluto. Enemy level stats are in-universe also from mods, why would anyone compare an unequipped unmodded warframe against leveled enemies unless they simply don't have the progression?

 

Warframe: 

See how awesome Warframe is. This version doesn't put people to sleep. ^^

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10 hours ago, Felsagger said:

For stasis DE can make troops immune to it. Or simply give that ability a cool down and a short period for the duration. 

I would prefer it if they just... changed the effect. I've already discussed how.

 

At the point of arbitrary immunities, it'd be better to just flat-nerf the power and have done with it, none of this "ooh will it work on some enemies or wont it" nonsense. Plus, Limbo's kit probably needs more to it anyway.

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I would prefer it if they just... changed the effect. I've already discussed how.

 

At the point of arbitrary immunities, it'd be better to just flat-nerf the power and have done with it, none of this "ooh will it work on some enemies or wont it" nonsense. Plus, Limbo's kit probably needs more to it anyway.

 

I don't care much about this game anymore...meh...tbh...

 

If DE makes enemies more relevant, work better levels instead of RNG permutation and combinations of small tiles and focus on the lore I'll probably see what's up with it. Right now what matter is the farm of likes in this forum. That's DE's endgame for us on these forums.

 

 

^^

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At this point, as much as I would like the game to come back to a difficulty level of void towers, I just don't belive it can be achived now. The amount of op stuff that has been added to the game is just out of control: pizzas, nuke frames, aoe weapons, infinite energy, enemies made for blocking this fings (nullifiers, ancients) would be too punishing after nerfs for players. I don't want Warframe to become darksouls of lootershooters i just want to loose a mission once in a while or realize that this survival is too hard after 1h.

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22 hours ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

With all due and all that, but at this point I don't think this discussion will get us anywhere... This is like saying that The Lord of the Rings is a western because they ride horses or that Good Fellas is a comedy because the Joe Pesci character called another one a funny guy and subsequently laughed.

But all right...

  Reveal hidden contents

Sandbox games are a different sub-genre entirely. All thumbs are fingers, not all fingers are thumbs. You can have games that are simultaneously sandboxes and RPG's, you can have games that are neither and you can have games that are one or the other. No-one - and I mean no-one - who knows gaming (and doesn't merely play video games) considers any of the GTA series an RPG. Yes, it's story-driven; yes, it can be called a sandbox game; yes, you can select your load-out and outfit; yes, the most recent entries in the franchise (GTA4 and 5 to be specific, so no idea where this "always has been" came from) allowed some choice regarding the way the story unfolds (though not its direction in any feasible way), and yes, as you progress, you unlock more of the world. But it's not an RPG - despite having some RPG elements - as at no point in the game do you actually choose your role. Yes, there are RPG's that don't have a structured class system but still let you choose a role; GTA isn't one of them. Your choice there - by and large - is limited to picking mission strategies and tactics (but it doesn't make GTA a Real-Time Strategy game now, does it?).

Neither GTA nor Warframe are RPG's.

 

Don't believe me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warframe

https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/warframe

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto:_Vice_City

https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/grand-theft-auto-vice-city

 

and for comparison, an actual sandbox RPG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim

https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim

 

also, spoiler alert, AC isn't an RPG series, either

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin's_Creed

https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/assassins-creed-directors-cut-edition

 

 

Given that you're using GTA as a frame of reference for RPG's as a genre... ah well. You're not saying "WF (or GTA, or whatever) has some RPG elements and it would be cool to look at it from this perspective". You're stating that both of them are actual RPG's and - to my understanding at least - that they need to be treated as such...

 

I mean, I wouldn't care normally, but it seems weird to me that there's a discussion on what Warframe is and what direction it should take as a game, yet you and some others seem to think that game genres are opinions or something and not a classification tool for gamers to better recognise and talk about their tastes. It's not a bad thing that Warframe isn't an RPG. Why defend such an idea? Why here? Do you want it to be an RPG?

 

They are both very much RPG's. Because you do have an effective role in WF and things we do change the world we are part of. At first it may not have had much on the RPG side, but the more it grows the more the RPG shines through. In GTA you can pick any role you want and you can participate in things that are straight up RP, like buying hookers, robbing banks and whatever else you want. In reality it isnt much unlike a free-form pen and paper campaign where the players make the story and the GM really only designs the world and possible encounters. There is essentially as much (or more) RP in GTA and WF as there is in D3, PoE, Destiny/2 and Borderlands, while lacking compared to games like Fallout 3 where choices matter.

Skyrim is also not a sandbox game, it is an open world game unless you mod it heavily. Sandbox =/= open world =/= sandbox, you can have either, both or none in a game. If you are looking for a sandbox RPG there are always the grand parents Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies to look at. Though both being MMOs

Parts of the AC series are also RPGs.

You should also probably look at the WF wiki you yourself posted. Right collumn that sums up everything about the game, with everything devs, directors, programmers, platforms etc. Take a look at the second to last entry that says "genre(s)", what exactly does it say there? That is right, action role-playing.

Also, I'm not using GTA as a frame of reference for RPGs, my frame of reference for RPGs make GTA end up within those frames. Since as I said, it is like a free form pen and paper RPG campaign and not your run of the mill "D&D" campaign. Things that were easy to get going in old RPG's like Wastelands, G.U.R.P.S, Kult, Mutant, Dragons and Demons, Star Wars, Cyberpunk and several others. The restrictive part of GTA is that you are thrown into the role of a named character in single player, just as it is in RD2, but you can play online for the actual free form rpg experience where the game is just the GM setting up a frame for the world.

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Okay, so just because apparently an entire page's worth of argument has sprung up over this:

21 hours ago, Felsagger said:

He entirely missed the point mentioning that game.

The "whoosh" should've been indication enough, but it is you who have missed the point by a country mile. Loza is right: the point I was trying to argue was that any game, regardless of genre or tone, can offer both a power fantasy and a challenge simultaneously. A common argument given about Warframe is that, because it's "different from other games" (and it is, in many respects), it apparently cannot be held to any sort of standard but its own, because no game can be said to be quite of the same genre, or to have quite the same mechanics. Pointing out that power fantasy + challenge is genre-irrelevant therefore counters that argument, as the examples given include not only turn-based strategy games, but also first-person games, beat-em-ups, stealth-heavy games, and JRPGs, all of which have key differences relative to Warframe as well. Also worth mentioning that the need for specific games is itself irrelevant: most Doom games offer a power fantasy, as do most Assassin's Creed games, most Saint's Row games, most Civ games, and so on. With just a modicum of self-awareness, you could've saved yourself from spiraling into such an embarrassing obsession.

Edited by Teridax68
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8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

So can the "we need to over-exaggerate every point you make" group. 

So can the "every post is about me" egotist group. Nobody mentioned you.

 

3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Maybe we are generalizing things way too much. In here we don't want hard content all the time. We want improvements on the content such as enemy A.I, NPCs and better designed levels. The game content, specially the hordes or the enemy, are the worst. It needs urgent attention because people are getting bored of it. DE has all the assets and ingredients but the way they are handling them makes people get bored of the game. 

Better designed levels? The next update does just that: corpus ship remaster. Though there was a video complaining that they are making missions in general way to standstill, as in we want more parkour in missions. Have to agree what that part.

I am not sure what you mean by NPCs. If you mean rescue/defense/defection targets, yes I agree, they suck. And DE just doubled damage from infested, reduced targets armor scaling (i am assuming they suffered the same fate as enemy NPCs) and did not make up for it.

Changing the ways the warframes function is also simply too drastic and not gonna feel very warframe. Best to approach it with some easy to implement gimmicks like halving the effects of every mod.

As far as AI goes, I think many people do not know about the "complexity zoo" and why the task of making an competent AI is beyond hard. As is the hardness you are trying to achieve in game play is childsplay compared to the task of making a good AI. It is gonna take too much time and money, and bring in next to nothing.  I cannot support big changes to the AI and i think neither can DE. If you want your request to be taking seriously, make sure DE can manage it with a reasonable time and money investment, or can pass it as "new" content.

 

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36 minutes ago, alenkiss said:

How noble of you to defend the honor of an imaginary group. SJW rejoice.

I'm going to agree with DEWukong here.

You came in here with the following attitude: 

" the "we need 100% super hard content all the time" group can gtfo."

Sorry but we are not going to accept that or walk along your terms. Your art of conversation is NOT accepted here. You rather agree or disagree with the subject like everybody else is doing. You committed yourself to a hostile exchange derailing the subject with vitriol. First you exaggerate and then you throw in your loaded tone. I don't have to agree with everybody, I don't expect anyone to agree with my points of view on the subject either, however don't expect flowers in return when you enter a conversation with toxicity and a loud tone believing that you are better than the rest of us. Accept your loss, move on and go civilized. If not you will get more well deserved discipline and justice. 

 

 

Edited by Felsagger
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Il y a 16 heures, Felsagger a dit :

For stasis DE can make troops immune to it. Or simply give that ability a cool down and a short period for the duration. 

Cooldowns for some abilities would be a great step forward imo.

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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Faerwald said:

Cool downs for some abilities would be a great step forward imo.

It is viable for certain frames. 

 

This game can walk again with a good analysis on the war frames classifying if they are outliers or not. Certain abilities should have restriction. Area of Effect, invulnerability, and nuking should have timers on them. Too much capability trivialize any content in any game, not only this one. This game requires attention on the infrastructure because if this continues on the same cycle, I'm sure that people are going to forget this title once the next generation walks in. 

It perfectly works on Titan Fall 2. It works on games like Overwatch. It works on many other games and even here. The cool down on heavies is too much. However the cool down on abilities is absent. This game would drastically change for the better if the load out consists of an Archwing heavy, a heavy, primary, secondary and melee.

DE must recuperate terrain and restitute their performance doing good maintenance to this GAAS F2P game. DE requires more personnel because what they have now is not enough for the required demands that the game needs. DE personnel should grow because the game has too many fronts that requires dedicated people on such things like Rail Jack, the level design or tile sets, open world levels, vehicles, weapons mechanics, enemies and so on. 250 individuals is just not enough for the load of work required. 

Balancing, downgrading, upgrading and ordering the effectiveness and tool kits of the frames is a job on itself that asks too much time for a fair delivery. 

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1 hour ago, alenkiss said:

How noble of you to defend the honor of an imaginary group. SJW rejoice.

And how strange of you to tell an imaginary group to gtfo.

Been smoking that mad stuff yes? Seeing all the things? Junkies rejoice.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

The "whoosh" should've been indication enough, but it is you who have missed the point by a country mile.

Your word is not written in stone. Not everybody is going to agree with you. Sorry. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

Loza is right: the point I was trying to argue was that any game, regardless of genre or tone, can offer both a power fantasy and a challenge simultaneously.

Then write exactly this. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

A common argument given about Warframe is that, because it's "different from other games" (and it is, in many respects), it apparently cannot be held to any sort of standard but its own, because no game can be said to be quite of the same genre, or to have quite the same mechanics.

War Frame is a Frankenstein game that draws attributes from other genres. This is not a novel product in any sort or any form. If the game deals with weapons, be sure that such game will be compared with games that uses weapons the same way this game does. If the game deals with melee action, be sure that other games that performs similarly will be mentioned on the comparisons. References are inevitable. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

.....you could've saved yourself from spiraling into such an embarrassing obsession.

Maybe you have to get off that high horse of yours....

 

just sayin'...

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2 hours ago, alenkiss said:

 

 

Better designed levels? The next update does just that: corpus ship remaster. Though there was a video complaining that they are making missions in general way to standstill, as in we want more parkour in missions. Have to agree what that part.

New tile set doesn't mean better designed levels. The level structure remains but the props and assets are updated in appearance and geometry. Level design refers to the architecture and spatial attributes of the level.

Good stage design happened in Jupiter where War Frames must use their parkour to traverse them. Some of these stages are highly vertical and others are open wide for any style of traversing. 

Stage design helps us, the players, use our parkour more as our only advantage over the enemy. Flat corridor stages works against the purpose of the game. 

2 hours ago, alenkiss said:

I am not sure what you mean by NPCs. If you mean rescue/defense/defection targets, yes I agree, they suck. And DE just doubled damage from infested, reduced targets armor scaling (i am assuming they suffered the same fate as enemy NPCs) and did not make up for it.

Non playable characters. 

2 hours ago, alenkiss said:

Changing the ways the warframes function is also simply too drastic and not gonna feel very warframe. Best to approach it with some easy to implement gimmicks like halving the effects of every mod.

Restraining the area of effect, invulnerability or nuking is not a drastic change. You simply add cool downs to those abilities. 

2 hours ago, alenkiss said:

As far as AI goes, I think many people do not know about the "complexity zoo" and why the task of making an competent AI is beyond hard. As is the hardness you are trying to achieve in game play is childsplay compared to the task of making a good AI. It is gonna take too much time and money, and bring in next to nothing.  I cannot support big changes to the AI and i think neither can DE. If you want your request to be taking seriously, make sure DE can manage it with a reasonable time and money investment, or can pass it as "new" content.

 

For the third time, I'll say this again, DE's current AI sucks duodenum hard. 

 

I'm not asking for quick drastic changes. I'm asking for careful implementation. The enemy must think, react and behave in smart ways. Right now the game feels like a shooting gallery where targets expose themselves in masses. This makes everything boring. Why? We don't play attention to the map features, we don't take advantage of the map features, we spam abilities every time we see fit, there are no interesting engagements with the enemy. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

Warframe:  (Sonic Generations Videos)

See how awesome Warframe is. This version doesn't put people to sleep. ^^

Personally I don't view rushing to the extraction to be related to the fun in the game; but even if it was, why would I consider that Denuvo plagued release instead of the originals or even the Dreamcast releases?

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Then write exactly this.

I clearly didn't need to, since everyone except you understood me. I absolutely agree that not everyone has to agree with me, just as the world does not revolve around your person, nor should it ever need to. What is all the more hilarious about this is that in your latest petulant response, you yet again miss the point entirely. But hey, don't let me stop you.

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5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I clearly didn't need to, since everyone except you understood me. I absolutely agree that not everyone has to agree with me, just as the world does not revolve around your person, nor should it ever need to. What is all the more hilarious about this is that in your latest petulant response, you yet again miss the point entirely. But hey, don't let me stop you.

I'm going to draw the line here. 

If you want to save your ego, fine by me you can. But I'm not going to deal with arrogance, your condescending attitude and your insults. If you come with this tone again, be sure that I'm going aggressive and direct. 

 

Simple. 

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1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Personally I don't view rushing to the extraction to be related to the fun in the game; but even if it was, why would I consider that Denuvo plagued release instead of the originals or even the Dreamcast releases?

 

The game feels shallow since there are no distinctive enemies. The game resumes to a race track where War Frames spam abilities while they lap few times until they get the necessary XP for the weapons or War Frames. Even a Sonic the Hedgehog game feels more interesting and immersible while Hydron or any other endurance activity becomes monotonous because there is no emphasis on the enemies or even the levels. 

 

If Hydron is a place where everybody visits, why not make it interesting? If Akkad is a place where many players farm, why not make it interesting? If the void is a place where many invest time, why not make these stages interesting and rework the corrupt enemies. Farming levels should be interesting, dynamic and of course more complex other than a piston platform that goes up and down like Hydron. 

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