Jump to content

Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

Grineer Lancer #86721 should never be a threat and should be fodder to our godly Warframe powers. AoE DPS isn't inherently bad, mass CC isn't inherently bad, these two things feel great to do to a mindless army.

Challenging enemies should be unique, named enemies. An enemy that can resist abilities (a mechanic DE debut years ago when Bursas were released but has not fully implemented to the full game), something that looks and feels like it should be a challenge. If only DE had already created a large suite of unique enemies that would fit perfectly in the common spawn pool...

Request #38 to add Arena (Index/Rathuum) enemies to the common spawn pool.

 

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, much like how it is sometimes stupid to buff everything to the level of an OP toy it is stupid to nerf everything when you could just add one thing.

Yup I like this. Get back to the fundamentals. Back to when the "oh snap" momment a heavy shows up on scene. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, NigglesAU said:

The point about more minibosses ie along the line of more Nox types makes more sense than buffing/nerfing..

And Nox is still CC like all others.

2 minutes ago, NigglesAU said:

Enemy AI...im not a programmer but would aside from complexity to program, wouldn't it make the backend processing etc more bloated etc? (sorry if im talking out of my ass haha) 

And that has been adressed in the interview. Its doesnt matter how smart, how sophisticated and highly adaptable the AI is when you can CC/Kill them in a blink of an eye.

Just now, 844448 said:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcJ1UWSU3ZTSJomNbKZYO

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

>Vallis Enemies together create a diverse fighting force that applies real pressure on the Player without having to rely on Level Scaling or spam to do so.

Idk, some of them are kinda unbalanced.

Let's assume level 100 and examine some of their per shot damage output

Starting with our more fodder enemies,
Terra Attack Drone: 9 base damage, so 176 damage per shot at level 100
Terra Shield Osprey: 9 base damage, so 176 damage per shot at level 100
Terra Moa: 9 base damage, so 176 damage per shot at level 100
Terra Shockwave Moa: 9 base damage, so 176 damage per shot at level 100 (This is not the tether, which is another level of BS)

Moving on to our light humanoid enemies:
Terra (Elite) Crewman: 20 base damage, so 392 damage at level 100
Terra (Elite) Provisor: 20 base damage, so 392 damage at level 100 (this is not the visor attack)
Terra Trencher: 50 base damage, so 980 damage at lvl 100 (each hit staggers)
Terra Elite Trencher: 75 base damage, so 1469 damage at level 100 (each hit staggers)

And now on to our heavier units
Terra Manker: 60 base damage, so 1176 damage at level 100
Terra Raptor Sx: 65 base damage, 40 on explosion, 25 on contact, so 784 explosion and 490 contact damage at level 100
Terra Elite Raptor Sx: 115 base damage, 80 on explosion, 35 on contact, so 1567 explosion and 686 contact damage at level 100
Terra Jailer: 80 base damage, 20 blast on explosion, 60 electric on contact, so 392 explosion and 1176 contact damage at level 100 (they also have homing projectiles and fires a 3 round burst)
Terra Overtaker: 85 base damage, 25 blast on explosion, 60 electric on contact, so 490 explosion and 1176 contact damage at level 100 (they also have homing projectiles)
Terra Elite Overtaker: 170 base damage, 50 blast on explosion, 120 electric on contact, so 980 explosion and 2351 contact damage at level 100 (they also have homing projectiles)

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Bombards were not perfect, they did need tweaks. I think DE nerfs the enemy too much though. The rockets couldve been made a little slower and have a distinct color to their exhaust. That said, sometimes i think it should be on the player (in high level play) to anticipate a rocket from a bombard that spawned, same goes for some other enemy attacks. You should be planning to evade a rocket the moment they appear. The rockets do need a proper counter, like rolling to lose lock or something. 

I very much prefer the two PoE takes on the Bombard.

The 'regular' sort basically behaves like the Ballista, but since it's a projectile, it's something you can actually meaningfully dodge. I'd be fine with a shorter wind up, even. And the Mortars behave more like a passive threat, limiting the effectiveness of Camping. Until you nuke them.

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Bursas would've been more effective if at least the eximus versions still were min-boss like in their difficulty, but rare. 

Perhaps. Then again, you can still nuke them.

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I honestly dont think we are too OP. I think the enemies are more over nerfed. Fortuna is an example of that. Those enemies kicked peoples butts without ridiculous scaling. Overall, i think DE needs to tweak enemies, but not turn them into fodder. We dont want to be annoyed by enemies, but i dont like them being pushovers either, 

Unless you nuked them.

 

At the end of the day, Pablo is right. Our abilities cover 30-50 metres and entirely shut down enemies. We can discuss how well the existing enemies are, and there are some legitimately great enemies in Warframe, but the fact of the matter is we can nuke them, CC them or invisibility past them till judgement day and trumpets sound.

8 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Grineer Lancer #86721 should never be a threat and should be fodder to our godly Warframe powers. AoE DPS isn't inherently bad, mass CC isn't inherently bad, these two things feel great to do to a mindless army.

Challenging enemies should be unique, named enemies. An enemy that can resist abilities (a mechanic DE debut years ago when Bursas were released but has not fully implemented to the full game), something that looks and feels like it should be a challenge. If only DE had already created a large suite of unique enemies that would fit perfectly in the common spawn pool...

Request #38 to add Arena (Index/Rathuum) enemies to the common spawn pool.

 

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, much like how it is sometimes stupid to buff everything to the level of an OP toy it is stupid to nerf everything when you could just add one thing.

Resisting abilities disproportionately affects caster frames though. Buffer frames are functionally unaffected by them, after all. 

It genuinely is a better idea to make it so the abilities aren't godly in the first place. You can still be absurdly powerful - I don't think anybody is asking for Warframe to be Dark Souls. But it is extremely telling that Kirby and Dynasty Warriors, two series both designed around you being godly powerful, impose limits on how freely you can just nuke the entire environment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Because lore follows gameplay, not the other way around.

In God of War, Kratos can be killed by simple mortals. In Mortal Kombat, Raiden, Kronika, Jason, and Shinnok can be killed by Sonya. In Dragon Ball games, Yamcha can defeat Ultra Instinct Goku. In Pokémon, you can somehow capture Arceus, which is God. In Halo, Master Chief experiences recoil from firing a puny pistol. In Bioshock, plasmids and vigor are available like candy and caused the falls or their civilization due to overuse, yet no enemy is seen using them against you (Other than bosses).

The game's lore is second to the gameplay in any game. Not the other way around. This is why the "videogame logic" meme exists, and it is a terrible argument. 

And in WF's case, the power machine lore actually gets in the way of engaging gameplay, as acknowledged by the actual makers of the game.

Say that to warhammer 40k to one guy who is actually immortal that really cannot be killed for he is prime arch of the salamander, flipping OP if you ask me yet it depends on ppl how they build the game and if there is any "Loop Holes" for unlike every games that may not contain loop holes/glitches/exploit/"Just For Show".  Basically we are pointing finger to each other by pointing finger "How it pose to be" yet remind everyone we end up in the mess of someone else mess by I mean by "Lore" and "Balance".  For that is putting a limitation on lore that didn't make sense from the start like limbo for his abilities pose to go across the star map of the galaxy but none his abilities didn't do any of them for it was made up and filler in.  Ask yourself how many time did warframe change it's lore during past years which so many time dev keep changing it and changing it for the real question is will they change the lore again like they did last time.  I am sitting here waiting to see are they going change it unlike the other games who barely thinking of changing before it is release unless you make the game base on different timeline and lots annoying paradox then I am not $##! organizing that because paradox and different timeline is your looking at Wolfstine all over again but chaos of mix of "Rick and Morty" show of where snakes travel in timeline and you know annoying massive paradox.

As again finding the game is being still bipolar of it's chose trying being balance and trying to follow the lore is one thing creator put themselves in big pickle jar there not even dev can't reach their arm length which they made this mess and it is going be another few years to clear it up and fix the lore in the game because I still having hard time keep track the lore and see where it pose to be in. The dev dug this one deep but not deep like other games but seeing this mess is going give me questions about why didn't the dev deal anything about "Void Lore" for barely there isn't one at all for the dev just don't answer what it is what it is for it is like they don't want talk about but they probably trying figure out how to put the lore into terms that pose to make the lore for it but don't want to answer it directly for all we got is 1 shady trailer and that is it.  Once more no one is always 100% sure where they are driving their game towards for take example AE (Artix Entertainment) their company where driving their game different directions early stage and they were bit lost and trying make good lore which went up and down not terrible bipolar yet here they are figure out and done as they plan it out right how they want the story to be.  Warframe is utterly mess with the story and the dev expects to do like the game "Defiance game" to look for the stories and know them.  This is where the confusion will begin what is exact pose to be what is balance or not, or either follow the lore as it seem it is balance for it will crippled the views how the game pose to be in some way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Not sure to the exact nerf here, so I want call out in relation.

Quite sure ancients used to be able to slap you down if you're too close to them, knocking you down if you're not careful and recklessly charge to them so it's better to take them down from range

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

From what I've heard, they were dangerous because they basically behaved as any other enemy did, no/limited indicator, super high accuracy and super high damage, in hitscan. In other words, just dying out of nowhere. Is that dangerous? Yes. Is that realistic? Yes. Is that FUN? No, because there's no meaningful choices at work.

There is though, pay attention if there's any sniper on long range and prioritize on them before charging to the rest instead of crying because snipers are doing their job properly

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

To my understanding, these were in the same place as Snipers - instant-kill enemies with minimal ways to fight back.

Now they're in a much better place, and I'd love to see their spawn rates increased.

Not really, they can only knock you down if you're standing still and claw you for some medium amount of damage, rarely kills you in one clawing session, punishing camping play style and now they can't even knock us down from charging on us

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Not sure what situation they were in before, though even now they are inconsistent from bursa to bursa. Some will reward movement if you jump over them by letting you hit their weakspot, others twirl like ballerinas, others just don't have a weak spot. Enemies should reward you for having knowledge of how to beat them, not sike you out with 'oh, you used previous knowledge? Well, sorry, even though I'm otherwise the exact same enemy, I don't work by those rules!"

There are three variants of bursas, right? And all of them are weak on their back panel so there should be no problem on that. The "I'm otherwise the exact same enemy, I don't work by those rules" makes some sense, considering that there are three variants with different roles so it would be okay if one variant is able to twirl like ballerinas because that variant is designed for that role

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 844448 said:

There is though, pay attention if there's any sniper on long range and prioritize on them before charging to the rest instead of crying because snipers are doing their job properly

Read the second paragraph where I suggest a better system.

Right now, they don't, in part because since their accuracy is unreasonably low at close to mid range, it's a roll of the dice if seeing the sniper indicator is actually a threat or not.

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Not really, they can only knock you down if you're standing still and claw you for some medium amount of damage, rarely kills you in one clawing session, punishing camping play style and now they can't even knock us down from charging on us

"Were".

Past tense.

From what I'm told, the clawing absolutely used to kill you.

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

There are three variants of bursas, right? And all of them are weak on their back panel so there should be no problem on that. The "I'm otherwise the exact same enemy, I don't work by those rules" makes some sense, considering that there are three variants with different roles so it would be okay if one variant is able to twirl like ballerinas because that variant is designed for that role

Embattor Moas on the Vallis are Bursas, as is Auditor. Neither have the back weak point.

It's not OK for any version of them to do that because it negates the way you fight them. It'd be like if breaking the Helmet on the Nox sometimes didn't allow you to do more damage.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 It seems DE could look into making us fail missions instead by having enemies target objectives or increase fail conditions if we go from what Pablo said.

They already do that with the exception of Survival life capsules. And even if they did, players can just use the same CC abilities we use on defense objectives, on top of the capsule. And then we have Nekros who makes capsules irrelevant. Every survival with a Nekros in it will have all the capsules available without use.

You can't just magically make challenge on a power fantasy horde shooter like Warframe without changing the core mechanics of the game first, which would be received badly on the majority of the community.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m seeing a lot of people stating very clearly that they want a challenge.

I’m left wondering how much longer they’d want fights to last 🤔 Intrinsically, a challenging fight lasts longer than a “Delete map” fight, whether it’s through engaging with the enemy more or the fail state being reached more often.

How many players got to the point they are right now by rushing through everything with high-powered equipment that ensures targets die immediately and fail state is never reached?

What weight does doing a thing as fast as possible have versus a challenging fight?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do I need difficulty in a dynasty warrior game? If I need it, I’ll just go play dark soul, but I don’t.

I play warframe just for cheesing, see BIG numbers go brrrrrr

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

And this is why I hate people who constantly whine about the game being too easy.

This game is all about the power fantasy no other game can give you to this extend. Nerfing the players into oblivion just so that some elitist fricks can have their "challenge" will do more damage than good.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

And this is why I hate people who constantly whine about the game being too easy.

This game is all about the power fantasy no other game can give you to this extend. Nerfing the players into oblivion just so that some elitist fricks can have their "challenge" will do more damage than good.

There is old saying "Fantasy has no bound in power" just like they did with making manga books but it only the limitation is by our mind that what we should cap that imagination to be that limit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

And this is why I hate people who constantly whine about the game being too easy.

This game is all about the power fantasy no other game can give you to this extend. Nerfing the players into oblivion just so that some elitist fricks can have their "challenge" will do more damage than good.

Hard mode or elite mode should be where elitist play. Regular play for majority of rewards, hard/elite mode for those of us that want to push our builds and skills to the limits. The two should be able to coexist. For some of us, a "power fantasy" means nothing if we dont have to work for it. We want to feel powerful because of our mods and skill, not because enemies would die to an unmodded skana

Personally, i wouldnt mind having the choice of doing a hard/elite sortie even if the reward pool was the exact same. Just give me an emblem that counts completions or something. The two kinds of play can co-exist. Both styles are valid

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Pablo is right.

I disagree. I think he is 100% wrong. Taking the easy way out by nerfing frames for the sake of "balance" while leaving enemies to still be just dated lemmings that run past WFs and have abismal reaction time with dated fundamentals, mechanics and bewildering tactics will change nothing but piss off the rest of the player base. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Adding more failure points would be a fantastic idea.
For Capture make the capture target a high value non combatant that pretty much just cowers and gets drug in a container of some sort. However, the container is vulnerable and the enemy would rather murder their captured ally than let them fall into Tenno hands.
Spy needs to actively punish those who get spotted in vaults. I suggest more heavy units. Lots of them. We're talking like 15 bursa big bois that hate every ounce of your guts.
Sabotage is actually pretty decent. They should have them try to restart the ship though during the bit. Like, we have to wait if we try to overload the ship without coolant so as to prevent them from replacing the coolant. Or have fire teams to prevent the reactor from freezing. Stuff like that.
Extermination is pretty difficult to add more points of failure. I got nothing for it.
Mobile defense should have us have bonus objectives to cart back to the terminal. Perhaps have us perform a hacking game to speed things up or something like that. Bring a second datamass carried by a high ranking enemy? And if we don't get that datamass then we get booted from the system and they lock down the entire ship which causes a failure?

Just throwing stuff to the wind. And I do agree, some frames are way stronger than others and the strength differential needs to be brought to heel.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

And this is why I hate people who constantly whine about the game being too easy.

This game is all about the power fantasy no other game can give you to this extend. Nerfing the players into oblivion just so that some elitist fricks can have their "challenge" will do more damage than good.

This is true in a sense: making the game challenging means making it not Warframe. The elements involved here - Warframes, enemies, damage systems, weapon design, level design, boss design, and mission design - do not exist independently of each other and changing them as if they did would not result in a good patient outcome.

That’s the choice before us.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

I disagree. I think he is 100% wrong. Taking the easy way out by nerfing frames for the sake of "balance" while leaving enemies to still be just dated lemmings that run past WFs and have abismal reaction time with dated fundamentals and mechanics will change nothing but piss off the rest of the player base. 

this one I agree with you, for the fact the lore didn't described that the warframe has "mods" to be used during that time it was base on originally was lvl of the NPC, I've tested by using orokin warframe vs the sentient which the orokin warframe still wins somehow.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-05-17 at 10:28 PM, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

 (Dealing thousands of damage in a enemy that only need like fifty) Being broken Op against anything the game throws at you isn't fun, or engaging, and It get's boring real quick...

The problem comes when, if players can do anything the game has with ease, what is the point in trying to make good mechanics in the game when the core is broken?

What I am trying to say is that being broken op isn't what makes Warframe fun...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Resisting abilities disproportionately affects caster frames though. Buffer frames are functionally unaffected by them, after all. 

Ability resistance in Warframe isn't just resisting abilities at base. Ability resistance is only diminishing returns on subsequent casts after the first cast. While yes, self buffs will not be adversely affected, getting one full cast of a CC ability should be plenty to make those frames worthwhile.

 

12 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

I disagree. I think he is 100% wrong. Taking the easy way out by nerfing frames for the sake of "balance" while leaving enemies to still be just dated lemmings that run past WFs and have abismal reaction time with dated fundamentals, mechanics and bewildering tactics will change nothing but piss off the rest of the player base. 

I think it should be noted that the OP left out the parts where Pablo made his case against this sort of balance and why it is probably best if Warframe stays on the power fantasy track that it is. The OP conveniently left out the things Pablo said that went against the thesis of this post.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

"Were".

Past tense.

From what I'm told, the clawing absolutely used to kill you.

If you go with unranked warframe that only has 100 health, I haven't died from one clawing session with a fully ranked Excalibur before the armor increase with only 300 health on max level

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Embattor Moas on the Vallis are Bursas

They may lack back weak point, but they don't have any armor, making them not as tough as the other bursas

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

as is Auditor

Auditor has a back panel to shoot as its back weak point

I don't know about you, but I don't see any problem with those bursas yet

Link to post
Share on other sites

Warframe is already difficult enough in the beginning. It's just by late game, players have many ways to circumvent player limitations and thus difficulty. Late game, there is on demand health, ammo and most importantly on demand energy.

For new players, without Zenurik, pizzas, rage and etc, there is a hard limit on Warframe abilities. Nukes were originally a get out of trouble card. 

The ability to cheese is the reward for hours of grind.

If people really wanted difficulty, Conclave would be way more popular than it is. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadly Warframe is more like a point and click mobile gacha game. Sure at rare times there is change in the flow of combat and how to handle enemies but never in a trillion years will this game ever match difficulty of other online MMOs like monster hunter world, borderlands, destiny. Only decent challenge you can have in warframe is in mot or orb Valli's at over lvl 100. Our modding system is just too strong even if the AI is improved. we would need stronger enemies with abilities then and you know how people cry with nullifiers, bombards, ancients, shield ospreys.

Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I think it should be noted that the OP left out the parts where Pablo made his case against this sort of balance and why it is probably best if Warframe stays on the power fantasy track that it is. The OP conveniently left out the things Pablo said that went against the thesis of this post.

Louder for the folks in the back row. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

In consideration of the upcoming hard mode and discussions surrounding it, this part of Shy's recent interview with Pablo is particularly relevant.

At the 40:05 mark, Pablo makes the following remark with regards regards to Jizo and Triburos asking why can't AI be improved so it reacts better to our behavior by changing their tactics and getting new attack patterns as difficulty/level increases:

Then again this topic comes back at around the 50:55 mark. This time Jizo asks why not program the AI with anti-cheese tactics. For example, by having Grineer identify that you're camping in survival and throw a "gas grenade" that deals very high damage and forces you to move:

That's something many people have been highlighting in the forums for months now, myself included:

So the problem with WF's balance and why DE have had to resort to things such as invulnerable enemies and nullifiers is directly tied to how powerful some frames are to the point of invalidating the game. As long as they exist in their current forms, there's little they can do beyond bullet sponges and invulnerable enemies. As Pablo pointed out, most players here would not accept massive changes and nerfs to area nuking and CC, so literally, what else can they do? So it seems to me that DE are very aware of what the problem is: The power fantasy itself and how strong we are. It nullifies any attempt at balance or challenge via enemy improvements.

So what is DE going to do if we don't allow nerfs? It seems that at least Pablo finds it interesting to have enemies make you fail the mission if they can't get to you instead. For example, by having enemies attack life support capsules in survival so you can't just camp in one place, as he mentions just a few minutes later.

Curiously, that's also something I suggested last year:

That, I think, is where DE will head. That's how difficulty will be introduced.

I have been trying to market the "we need balance" forever. The issue is the player base does not want to give up their big boy toys.

What will happen is this:

Nerfs are implemented

People quit

A new population grows.

Sometimes you just have to Thanos snap it to get it right!

Here is an example of me trying to get condition overload balanced with physical evidence. I did not provide any math behind it. I provided a clear physical image of how it is abused (Images provide understanding for all audiences regardless of age and play style). The topic lasted for three weeks in the feedback section and poof, sometime shortly later the mod was rebalanced! My discrete goal was to balance this game before AI rework. We have A LONG WAYS to go though AND A LOT MORE HATE from things to fix! The issue is you need to know what you are talking about when it comes to "fixing stuff" you just cannot say x frame needs a buff or x frame needs a rework. It simply does not work like that. Things that need a fix: Mecha Empowered, weapons that deal damage cap or consistent 10 million + damage. Tbh DE needs to build off of a building block like new enemies etc... to actually begin balancing around it. I personally believe (as a banshee main) that all debuffs and buffs should not exceed a .5x damage increase/multiplier/totaldmg multi. (.5x = 50%) To the many this sounds like a nightmare, again, this is just my personal opinion and advice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Midas said:

I have been trying to market the "we need balance" forever. The issue is the player base does not want to give up their big boy toys.

What will happen is this:

Nerfs are implemented

People quit

A new population grows.

Sometimes you just have to Thanos snap it to get it right!

who needs to be nerfed exactly?and why cant we create enemies to counter instead?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...