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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Dude, what's with the Titanfall hate boner?

No hate on Titanfall, just pointing out that the PvE part of it is horrible, same deal as Overwatch. Big thumbs up for TF PvP since it is unique and bridges the gap between Mech Warrior simulation and CoD/Battlefield shooter gameplay. Reminds me alot of BF2142.

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Just now, SneakyErvin said:

No hate on Titanfall, just pointing out that the PvE part of it is horrible, same deal as Overwatch.

This just makes me question if we're looking at the same game. Titanfall 2's PvE (both campaign and Frontier Defense) are held in high esteem for a reason.

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11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What does Jupiter's design have to do with anything? That map is designed for the potential of adding a more planet accurate tile, with a little dash of Star Wars sprinkles ontop. It had nothing to do with balancing the combat or counter out power. It was simply designed the way it now is to let us use parkour for fun. The combat on those maps still take place 99% on the ground in corridors and rooms. The vast open spaces are occupied by 1 or 2 mobs. A.I and level design still doesnt matter when we have the power that we currently do. With less power the maps and A.I would be enough for the game it is. When you actually play WF from scratch you a notice that the A.I already has the needed potential for the game. The problem comes with layered limitations that the A.I cant overcome, so is in a constant uphill battle, this along with our apecrazy power that blows them away.

 

Everything. 

 

Jupiter's tile set design captured vertical game play, quest searches, replay value, rewards on those quest searches such as captura scenes, new parkour challenge, diverse enemy engagement due to the spatial attributes of the stage. The level architecture and design differentiate the use of Zephyr, Hyldrin, Gauss, Titania, Valkyr grappling hook and Volt. Each frame on these levels experience a completely different game play. 

 

The level architecture defines enemies, the variety of enemies makes us use the level in different ways. The traps on them makes us be aware. And is in this area that such game can improve. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The reason other games look like they have a smarter A.I is because they do not have the arsenal of WF at their disposal. Give the players the same mindless options in those games and the A.I would be dead before you see it, just like here. This brings us back to the actual problem of WF, which is balance, nothing else. DE can slap on whatever behavior to the A.I they want, it will still be DoA when it spawns on a map.

 

Say that to a squad of Snipetrons, four nulls in forward line formation protecting each other and a line of heavy hitting ospreys, supra vandals and opticors troops at a fair 150 level. Some players demanded to downgrade heavy ospreys because their proc was insane. 

 

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You also need to stop comparing a horde shooter to far less dense games, like Arkham, Doom and TF2. And no, the TF2 gameplay is not richer. I'd fall asleep playing the PvE of that game if it entails what those videos showed. Watching paint dry is probably more interactive and interesting. How can you even think the TF2 gameplay is some form of model to shape things after? It is one of the most boring gameplay videos I've ever laid eyes on. Just that you bring up "enemy sophistication", "deeper enemy designed and enemy engagements" and claim those things belong to TF2 while you've provided the video you did is breathtaking. That video shows the opposite of all that and finely explains why PvP is the main attraction of TF2. As I said, I havent see a more boring gameplay video of a game. And I thought I had experienced the worst PvE first hand when engaging in the Overwatch PvE events, you clearly proved me wrong on that assumption cos that TF2 video sure took that price. You should sell that video to Kim Jong, he could replace his waterboard with that as a torture method.

 

Buy the game Titan Fall 2, play it. You don't obviously know what is going on because you haven't played the game. 

 

Titan Fall is an example that provides diversified hordes. Dynamic encounters and challenging matches. 

Arkham City shows an intelligent parkour system that justifies the gadgetry of the player. The player uses the full tool kit because there are situations in the stage that demands it. Similar to Dishonored 2. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

This just makes me question if we're looking at the same game. Titanfall 2's PvE (both campaign and Frontier Defense) are held in high esteem for a reason.

Correct. 

 

He doesn't have the game. That's why. 

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2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

This just makes me question if we're looking at the same game. Titanfall 2's PvE (both campaign and Frontier Defense) are held in high esteem for a reason.

That is why I said "I'd fall asleep playing the PvE of that game if it entails what those videos showed". The video he provided showed nothing impressive at all, neither when it came to the action or the A.I itself.

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6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Say that to a squad of Snipetrons, four nulls in forward line formation protecting each other and a line of heavy hitting ospreys, supra vandals and opticors troops at a fair 150 level. Some players demanded to downgrade heavy ospreys because their proc was insane. 

Vazarin says hi.

 - This post was made by the last few members of the Vazarin gang, scouring in the forums for pieces of recognition from devs.

(Yes, vazarin's immunity nullifies nullifiers,)

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2 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Vazarin says hi.

 - This post was made by the last few members of the Vazarin gang, scouring in the forums for pieces of recognition from devs.

(Yes, vazarin's immunity nullifies nullifiers,)

 

Vazarin is my choice but I use it to overthrow nulls for that reason. However nulls should 'nullify void abilities'. No exception. 

 

At least motivates stratified game play. Forces the player position the War Frame while he warps with the tenno. The tenno needs to move in order to neutralize a source that impedes War Frame powers. 

 

We call this a dialogue of buffing and nerfing that happens dynamically in the Battlefield. An example is Ikaruga. It makes the player switch between modes. 

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is why I said "I'd fall asleep playing the PvE of that game if it entails what those videos showed". The video he provided showed nothing impressive at all, neither when it came to the action or the A.I itself.

Ah. I have him blocked so I couldn't see the vid.

Titanfall has special enemies that are well suited to the game's movement. For instance, one enemy projects an energy shield that makes them effectively immune to damage, but only covers them on one side and doesn't turn quickly enough to outpace your wallrunning, encouraging you to find ways to get around behind them. There are also robotic enemies that are more aggressive and have strong frontal armour, but will detonate if hit from behind. Another robotic enemy doesn't explode, but can be hacked over to your side if you get close enough.

Frontier Defence also has unique enemy variants that help to mix up the standard "Defend the Tower" gameplay. Mortar teams that set up on buildings, and in later waves Mortar Titans that set up at the far edges of the map, forcing you to send someone out to deal with them. Arc titans that instantly down the objective's shields if they get too close, and suicide bots that detonate if your titan steps on them, for a few more examples of enemies that change the way you might otherwise fight.

It's kind of hard for me to summarise, but I can assure you that TF2's PVE is excellent, and a fine example of an experience that is both empowering and deep.

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4 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

Everything. 

 

Jupiter's tile set design captured vertical game play, quest searches, replay value, rewards on those quest searches such as captura scenes, new parkour challenge, diverse enemy engagement due to the spatial attributes of the stage. The level architecture and design differentiate the use of Zephyr, Hyldrin, Gauss, Titania, Valkyr grappling hook and Volt. Each frame on these levels experience a completely different game play. 

 The level architecture defines enemies, the variety of enemies makes us use the level in different ways. The traps on them makes us be aware. And is in this area that such game can improve. 

Say that to a squad of Snipetrons, four nulls in forward line formation protecting each other and a line of heavy hitting ospreys, supra vandals and opticors troops at a fair 150 level. Some players demanded to downgrade heavy ospreys because their proc was insane. 

Buy the game Titan Fall 2, play it. You don't obviously know what is going on because you haven't played the game. 

Titan Fall is an example that provides diversified hordes. Dynamic encounters and challenging matches. 

Arkham City shows an intelligent parkour system that justifies the gadgetry of the player. The player uses the full tool kit because there are situations in the stage that demands it. Similar to Dishonored 2. 

 

Quest searches? What? You mean exploration for secret rooms? Yes it did aaaaand that is exactly what I said. No each frame does not experience different gameplay in those stages, since all can use parkour just the same, the only exception would be Titania since she can ignore it all which applies everywhere else in the game aswell. And what "diverse enemy engagements" do you even mean? The 1-2 jetpack wearing goons that die to a sneeze if you just dont ignore them as you traverse the areas with broken walkways? Those are really the only new unique areas to the Gas City, the massive stair sections and everything else was there prior to the rework aswell with the same parkour options as before. It just got more "open" areas to capture the Gas City feel Star Wars style.

No really it doesnt aslong as we can just instagib things through walls, ceilings, floors and everything else within a 50m+ range. There is nothing in the gas city that has changed my approach except when getting from A to B when hitting up an "abyss" area. No different way I think of the enemies etc. It is the same, speed, speed, speed, chop, chop, shoot, nuke and repeat.

You pop the nullis with a rapid fire or pellet gun and call it a day, or just crash down into them and 1HK them with your melee. This is the second time you've brought up some formation scenario that wouldnt matter even with nullies. In the end they just stop power usage, which is far from being the only way of killing effectively.

I wont go and buy a game when you've shown a video that rivals paint drying when it comes to inducing boredom. Especially not when it is also a EA game. I dont even buy the Battlefield games anymore. Also, what hordes? 4 mobs at a time spawning in very specific locations would not class as a horde. Dynamic encounters? Like the mech that didnt want to help until he was the last mob left? That would also cover challenging matches, along with those "smart" A.Is that just tried to bull rush past a big freakin mech to get to the objective. Yes indeed it looked very challenging. /s 

TF2 seems to want to be a tactical shooter, yet the A.I seems to not even fit into a horde shooter game. I'm surprised that the PvE of that game is getting praised because it looked extremely dumb overall and extremely lacking in interesting action.

It doesnt matter if Arkham shows an intelligent parkour system, because that isnt the issue we have here in WF. No matter what they add to give us an incentive to use parkour aside from bullet jumping to get around, it will not solve the issue of imbalance and us wiping everything out in a second. All it will add are time sinks, it wont add any tactical layer or incite a specific new approach in combat. Not until LoS becomes a requirement for everything will there be a point to add anything else, since without LoS mobs will be trivialized.

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16 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Ah. I have him blocked so I couldn't see the vid.

Titanfall has special enemies that are well suited to the game's movement. For instance, one enemy projects an energy shield that makes them effectively immune to damage, but only covers them on one side and doesn't turn quickly enough to outpace your wallrunning, encouraging you to find ways to get around behind them. There are also robotic enemies that are more aggressive and have strong frontal armour, but will detonate if hit from behind. Another robotic enemy doesn't explode, but can be hacked over to your side if you get close enough.

Frontier Defence also has unique enemy variants that help to mix up the standard "Defend the Tower" gameplay. Mortar teams that set up on buildings, and in later waves Mortar Titans that set up at the far edges of the map, forcing you to send someone out to deal with them. Arc titans that instantly down the objective's shields if they get too close, and suicide bots that detonate if your titan steps on them, for a few more examples of enemies that change the way you might otherwise fight.

It's kind of hard for me to summarise, but I can assure you that TF2's PVE is excellent, and a fine example of an experience that is both empowering and deep.

Wish he would have shown a video of some of that. The one he showed was some defense looking map where after wave 1 an armory unlocked. Then people just started to wait around for specific spawn locations to pop the mobs as they came in, like some dropping onto roofs close by during one wave, which seemed to be 100% scripted because people were prepared for it already. First wave shown had a bunch of grunts along with a mech mob. The mech just stood there far back till the end of the round and seemed to do nothing and then got insta killed when it approached at the end.

I just got the overwatch feeling over it all since you can do the same there once you've learned the map. It turns more into a game of Memory than an actual action game.

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Quest searches? What? You mean exploration for secret rooms? Yes it did aaaaand that is exactly what I said. No each frame does not experience different gameplay in those stages, since all can use parkour just the same, the only exception would be Titania since she can ignore it all which applies everywhere else in the game aswell. And what "diverse enemy engagements" do you even mean? The 1-2 jetpack wearing goons that die to a sneeze if you just dont ignore them as you traverse the areas with broken walkways? Those are really the only new unique areas to the Gas City, the massive stair sections and everything else was there prior to the rework aswell with the same parkour options as before. It just got more "open" areas to capture the Gas City feel Star Wars style.

 

Let me start from square one. 

What War Frames do you have? Do you have Hyldrin? Do you have Titania? Do you have Zephyr prime? Do you have Gauss? Do you have Volt prime? Do you have Valkyr? Do you have Wisp? 

 

Traversing is different for all of them if you use their ability tool kit. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

No really it doesnt aslong as we can just instagib things through walls, ceilings, floors and everything else within a 50m+ range. There is nothing in the gas city that has changed my approach except when getting from A to B when hitting up an "abyss" area. No different way I think of the enemies etc. It is the same, speed, speed, speed, chop, chop, shoot, nuke and repeat.

 

The most used frame in your arsenal is Frost. 

The most used weapon in your arsenal is Ignis Wraith. 

The stage provides situations for different types of game play such as trench shooting, sniping and grenade launching weapons among many other styles. Stage design invites me use different Warframes, the same for the stages in Lua to solve the puzzles. 

 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

You pop the nullis with a rapid fire or pellet gun and call it a day, or just crash down into them and 1HK them with your melee. This is the second time you've brought up some formation scenario that wouldnt matter even with nullies. In the end they just stop power usage, which is far from being the only way of killing effectively.

 

Organized A.I. works better than lemmings. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

TF2 seems to want to be a tactical shooter, yet the A.I seems to not even fit into a horde shooter game. I'm surprised that the PvE of that game is getting praised because it looked extremely dumb overall and extremely lacking in interesting action.

Buy and play the game. You need that experience first. Otherwise you are basing opinions on apparels in a video. 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt matter if Arkham shows an intelligent parkour system, because that isnt the issue we have here in WF. No matter what they add to give us an incentive to use parkour aside from bullet jumping to get around, it will not solve the issue of imbalance and us wiping everything out in a second. All it will add are time sinks, it wont add any tactical layer or incite a specific new approach in combat. Not until LoS becomes a requirement for everything will there be a point to add anything else, since without LoS mobs will be trivialized.

 

Quality assets in the game such as A.I., Level design architecture, variety of enemies and depth in the lore increases the replay value of the game. 

 

The debate of downgrades and upgrades is an ill conceived creature that DE left unattended properly for seven years. Their business is based on programmed obsolescence. This is why I don't pay much importance to it. Because such problem will persist forever. This is how they make money. This is their "subterfuge". 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

There's nothing wrong with the level designs

Corpus Ice Planet exists so that is at least one thing wrong with an entire Tile set.

That entire map is a jagged mess and is the worst looking map type even from a pure visual standpoint.

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9 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

Let me start from square one. 

What War Frames do you have? Do you have Hyldrin? Do you have Titania? Do you have Zephyr prime? Do you have Gauss? Do you have Volt prime? Do you have Valkyr? Do you have Wisp? 

Traversing is different for all of them if you use their ability tool kit. 

The most used frame in your arsenal is Frost. 

The most used weapon in your arsenal is Ignis Wraith. 

The stage provides situations for different types of game play such as trench shooting, sniping and grenade launching weapons among many other styles. Stage design invites me use different Warframes, the same for the stages in Lua to solve the puzzles. 

 

Organized A.I. works better than lemmings. 

Buy and play the game. You need that experience first. Otherwise you are basing opinions on apparels in a video. 

Quality assets in the game such as A.I., Level design architecture, variety of enemies and depth in the lore increases the replay value of the game. 

The debate of downgrades and upgrades is an ill conceived creature that DE left unattended properly for seven years. Their business is based on programmed obsolescence. This is why I don't pay much importance to it. Because such problem will persist forever. This is how they make money. This is their "subterfuge". 

Yes I have all frames and only Titania actually changes how you traverse effectively. Wisp, Gauss and Volt simply adds speed, that doesnt change how you go from A-B, just the time it takes getting there. Hildryn doesnt even have a specific traveling ability, unless you wanna slow down extremely in order to ascend somewhere. Do you even Hildryn bro? Please do not tell me you use her Aegis Storm as a means of traversing specific parts of maps.

Nope, that would be Frost Prime, which I used solidly for my first 6 months or so. Yes Ignis was probably used alot back then aswell. Just as Tonbo is probably still my most used melee since it was one of the first weapons I got a riven to that made it great. In WF the stages doesnt provide any such situation no matter what because staying still is not a normal apporach in WF. What use would there be for trenches or sniping or lobbing grenades from a stationary place on a map designed for it? None. Not sure which Lua puzzle invites you to use a different frame, if you go to do those puzzles you just grab one of those with most health then you are set for everything that doesnt require a group of atleast 2 players.

Yes organized A.I works better than lemming, but that would also require them to be more durable than a lemming. A dead scientist is as useful as a dead lemming.

Nope, wont buy a game when a video has already shown something that makes me not wanna play it, especially not when it is tied to EA, which in itself is a red flashing indicator. 

Yeah quality assets etc. increase replay value, but it wouldnt matter here since out approach would be the same and we would notice no difference. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that changing the A.I is not the first step to take since we wouldnt notice a chance even if it was made.

What debate about which downgrades and upgrades of what? Which part of my post is this even refering to, or what are you even refering to in general? Now you start to be confusing as hell again.

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22 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

You ask, you buy. 

I'm still trying to figure out what you wanna show in those videos. There is no indication in either of an improved A.I over what we have here. What I do see is just arsenals for the players being far more limited and mobs obviously surviving longer. The first video was a pain to watch, it was even worse than your original one. So much time spent on nothing. The only thing I can say that was neat with the A.I is that it wasnt stupid and tried to fire at the mech and instead tried to run away in video 1.

Other than that, the A.I of TF would be as dead as the A.I of WF in our setting, just as the A.I of WF would have done about the same in TF, with the exception of running from the mech and instead trying to shot it. But that behavior may very well be scripted into the A.I to act that way when near a mech, so the same script could be added to the WF A.I if it was in TF. The WF A.I in TF would have probably resulted in a slightly more action packed first video.

Video 2 just shows that the A.I lacks situational awareness and probably also lacks sound tracking, since in no case in the video does the A.I turn around when the player runs towards them from behind.

So if we had the TF2 A.I in WF, what exactly would change?

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3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes I have all frames and only Titania actually changes how you traverse effectively. Wisp, Gauss and Volt simply adds speed, that doesnt change how you go from A-B

Do you play Warframe? I forgot to ask you that. 

 

 

Titania uses the Archwing changing the pace of the level like the vision of a helicopter osprey drone. 

Hyldrin can extricate her frame making her fly gaining altitude like a helicopter while enemies are paralyzed. Her normal stance allows the player to strafe in mid air like Zones of the Enders 2. 

Wisp speed changes the perception of the level since the frame floats or hover over the level. She goes over small obstacles easier. Wisp is a territorial frame that uses her 'flowers' to increase speed and damage among other synergies with the rest of the frames. 

When you stop before hitting a wall with Gauss, the frame 'bounces' through the walls dealing with the aftermath of such speed. Short bursts of speed is Tracer shifting. Linear speed smacks enemies and let you use stairs as 'ramps'. 

Zephyr flying perk gives you advantage over vertical traversing. You can jump up and use the phantasma as a barrage weapon. The same for Zarr and Secura penta that got downgraded to only three explosive grenades when it was actually five that bounces and the trigger for detonation. 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

, just the time it takes getting there. Hildryn doesnt even have a specific traveling ability, unless you wanna slow down extremely in order to ascend somewhere. Do you even Hildryn bro? Please do not tell me you use her Aegis Storm as a means of traversing specific parts of maps.

 

I have everything in the game. Don't worry.

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, that would be Frost Prime, which I used solidly for my first 6 months or so. Yes Ignis was probably used alot back then aswell. Just as Tonbo is probably still my most used melee since it was one of the first weapons I got a riven to that made it great. In WF the stages doesnt provide any such situation no matter what because staying still is not a normal apporach in WF. What use would there be for trenches or sniping or lobbing grenades from a stationary place on a map designed for it? None. Not sure which Lua puzzle invites you to use a different frame, if you go to do those puzzles you just grab one of those with most health then you are set for everything that doesnt require a group of atleast 2 players.

 

My most used frame is Trinity. Why? I'm a team based player that play healers. 

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes organized A.I works better than lemming, but that would also require them to be more durable than a lemming. A dead scientist is as useful as a dead lemming.

Increase their health, shield and armor AND include an A.I. that is organized. Instead of adding a cheap increase in damage. Let the engagement be diverse, enduring, lasting and intense. 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, wont buy a game when a video has already shown something that makes me not wanna play it, especially not when it is tied to EA, which in itself is a red flashing indicator. 

 

Logic says: "playing the game gives more knowledge than watching a video". Your assessment is severely limited with only few views on a video. You will not comprehend what a saxophone is if you don't play one. You will not understand how hard and how much skill is needed to make music out of it. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah quality assets etc. increase replay value, but it wouldnt matter here since out approach would be the same and we would notice no difference. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that changing the A.I is not the first step to take since we wouldnt notice a chance even if it was made.

 

False. 

Then why DE is interested in the incertion of new Tileset redesign with the Corpus old levels? Why DE improved their levels in Lua maps? Why DE inserted the new levels in Jupiter? 

 

Because the game feels the same in every planet. You see different planets, ehum, should provide different experiences, right? 

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What debate about which downgrades and upgrades of what? Which part of my post is this even refering to, or what are you even refering to in general? Now you start to be confusing as hell again.

The subject of the thread. You forgot it?  

 

It makes no sense to debate upgrades and downgrades because that is how DE makes money throughout programmed obsolescence. The focus of the conversation should be on the quality assets of the game that causes replay value, stop churn and provides more time for DE designing better assets for the game while another team adjusts upgrades and downgrades. 

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm still trying to figure out what you wanna show in those videos.

 

There is no indication in either of an improved A.I over what we have here. What I do see is just arsenals for the players being far more limited and mobs obviously surviving longer. The first video was a pain to watch, it was even worse than your original one. So much time spent on nothing. The only thing I can say that was neat with the A.I is that it wasnt stupid and tried to fire at the mech and instead tried to run away in video 1.

Other than that, the A.I of TF would be as dead as the A.I of WF in our setting, just as the A.I of WF would have done about the same in TF, with the exception of running from the mech and instead trying to shot it. But that behavior may very well be scripted into the A.I to act that way when near a mech, so the same script could be added to the WF A.I if it was in TF. The WF A.I in TF would have probably resulted in a slightly more action packed first video.

Video 2 just shows that the A.I lacks situational awareness and probably also lacks sound tracking, since in no case in the video does the A.I turn around when the player runs towards them from behind.

So if we had the TF2 A.I in WF, what exactly would change?

 

Edit:

See the videos. Take your time and see them. 

"

Titanfall has special enemies that are well suited to the game's movement. For instance, one enemy projects an energy shield that makes them effectively immune to damage, but only covers them on one side and doesn't turn quickly enough to outpace your wallrunning, encouraging you to find ways to get around behind them. There are also robotic enemies that are more aggressive and have strong frontal armour, but will detonate if hit from behind. Another robotic enemy doesn't explode, but can be hacked over to your side if you get close enough.

Frontier Defence also has unique enemy variants that help to mix up the standard "Defend the Tower" gameplay. Mortar teams that set up on buildings, and in later waves Mortar Titans that set up at the far edges of the map, forcing you to send someone out to deal with them. Arc titans that instantly down the objective's shields if they get too close, and suicide bots that detonate if your titan steps on them, for a few more examples of enemies that change the way you might otherwise fight.

It's kind of hard for me to summarise, but I can assure you that TF2's PVE is excellent, and a fine example of an experience that is both empowering and deep."

Read Corvid's post. 

 

Don't forget to type "last word" on your replies. ^^

Edited by Felsagger
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7 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

-snipe-

You are again stopping to make any shred of sense.

When you said Jupiter opened up new options to traverse for individual frames I thought you ment in a possitive way i.e inciting us to use these ways because they were better. This simply isnt true since you mention Hildryn's Aegis Storm which is the opposite and Zephyr that is even with baseline duration counter productive in indoor maps. 

Aegis Storm is a slowdown to normal movement, it also cannot fly across the open areas of Gas City. You need to have ground beneath you to make use of it at all. So again, do you even Hildryn bro.

And as I said regarding the rest, they speed up getting from A to B. The added parts of Gas City does not change the approach for Gauss, he cannot run through the air. The rest of the tile, like ramped areas and stairs are the exact same as before. So they were added in the Gas City rework.

9 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

d62078fec4774b42458f5d389eed2838.gif

 

See the videos. 

Still nothing in the those videos that is impressive or shows whatever defuse point you are trying to make regarding A.I.

 

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Just now, SneakyErvin said:

You are again stopping to make any shred of sense.

Ironies are welcome. 

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

When you said Jupiter opened up new options to traverse for individual frames I thought you ment in a possitive way i.e inciting us to use these ways because they were better. This simply isnt true since you mention Hildryn's Aegis Storm which is the opposite and Zephyr that is even with baseline duration counter productive in indoor maps. 

Aegis Storm is a slowdown to normal movement, it also cannot fly across the open areas of Gas City. You need to have ground beneath you to make use of it at all. So again, do you even Hildryn bro.

And as I said regarding the rest, they speed up getting from A to B. The added parts of Gas City does not change the approach for Gauss, he cannot run through the air. The rest of the tile, like ramped areas and stairs are the exact same as before. So they were added in the Gas City rework.

It was meant in a positive way.  

Hyldrin allows panoptic vision of the field while she elevates vertically. 

Zephyr provides quick altitude gain with vertical boosts while he hovers and glides more than other frames. 

 

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

 

Still nothing in the those videos that is impressive or shows whatever defuse point you are trying to make regarding A.I.

 

Buy the game. 

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I have been sitting on this idea for some time in regards how to properly add a more challenging version of warframe without screwing over players who like the power fantasy with the lack of challenge.

For starters, you can choose to select an alternate version of the start chart with significant balance changes that allow for more of a challenging version of warframe. 

Since i am planning to make a post on this eventually, ill just show the points i have right now. Fair warning, they are ideas are just wrote down so they might not be very clear or not good. Will refine later:

-common enemy types are less common but are slightly stronger damage wise

-unique enemy types such as the maniac show up much more frequently and all their attacks are much more lethal

-regarding the first two points, as a player progresses through the star chart, common enemies show up less and get slightly stronger while unique enemy types become more common and lethal.

-Common enemy types are less common while more unique enemy types show up more often (maniacs for example)


-Common enemies do slightly less damage while unique attacks from the unique enemy types are more deadly but can be telegraphed depending on the lethality.


-If player or group try to use a certain strategy to cheese the level, enemy ai will adapt to the best of it’s capability to counter the method (similar to the bunker example given in shy’s interview with pablo)


-Health pool of enemies should not be bullet sponge like (enemies should try to use other methods of improved difficulty such as weak spots). If properly leveled up, enemies should go down within 1-2 combos using melee while primary or secondary weapons can deal with an enemy in a decent amount of time.


-Recommend using doom eternal enemy methods: unique tougher enemies have weak spots in certain areas or require use of a certain attack to defeat. Enemies could be designed to deflect gun fire, counter spamming attacks, become immune to abilities that are used too often, perform attacks that can deal with multiple players if player try to gang up on enemy, can parry attacks, dodge certain attacks, etc.


-Stalker and liches should have attacks that allow them to avoid getting cheesed (liches could have a personal shield that prevents players from shooting them out of their reach, send deadly attacks that change depending on how far the player is (like the marauder from doom) or teleporting to close the distance, etc.


-Bosses should have their own arena rather than using a random spot in assassination missions, some bosses should be designed to be a fight for only a specific number of players depending on what kind of boss fight you want. If it is a 1 on 1, the mission will only be a single player mission.


-some enemies will only be vulnerable to primary or secondary weapons while other enemies will be vulnerable to melee only (or is just really bullet sponge like with the wrong weapon)


-Special enemies or bosses could have quick time events where if you were not careful, they could hit you with something that will cause some damage, but perform the require quick time event will prevent the damage from becoming to lethal.


-new and old bosses should be creative and interesting like enemies in the dark souls’ series (while those games are known to be really difficult, I always loved the boss fights for how detailed and interesting they were)


-If the player tries to hit and run to much, some bosses will perform certain action that will close the distance or punish the player for being cowardly.


-special enemies or bosses will develop damage resistance to repeated uses of staggers or procs. Also has a damage threshold of sorts to prevent the player from using an op build to kill the boss in a few hits. Extreme example: a shotgun that is modded to inflict 1,000,000 damage per shot on a boss or unique enemy type will only inflict 500 or 1000 damage on target (I did say extreme example)

 

-As for the warframe itself, players will not be able to adjust range or efficiency.

-Strength and duration can be boosted to a certain extent by leveling up.

-Player's health, shields, armor have adjusted stats based on the type of frame they use (all round frame, glass cannon frame, tank frame, etc.). Example: unranked excal, who would be considered as a all around frame, will have 300 shields, 100 armor and 200 health. At max rank, Excal will have 900 shields, 200 armor and 500 health (these are made up stats for the example)

-A frame's energy pool will all be the same at 100 at unranked and 300 or 500 at max rank

-For modding, you would mainly use augments to upgrade your abilities as your abilities would get stronger as you level up. This will also allow for mods that don't really affect your stats to be used. Mod slots would also be increased to allow for more customization. Additional augments would be needed for all frames to allow for more unique builds. Potentially, these augments could be found around the levels and could modify  a specific ability's stats to change how you use it.

-Another requirement would be to look into how progression would work for melee and guns but I have not yet thought about it. 

-I do know that a large amount of depth should be added to melee combat system as it has potential but is quite shallow at the moment.

-Level design would also need more details (i will also be making a post about my ideas for this another day)

-This part will upset some people, but pretty much all warframes abilities should be revisited. The idea is to redo the tool kits to make it that at base range and efficiency, abilities will only take down a small group of enemies or be single target focused with a low time to kill. But with access to all the mods available in current game, the abilities can be very strong and clear out a room of enemies which would give the feel of power fantasy. If a frame's revised abilities are not well received by the community that like power fantasy but is well received by the community that likes the challenge mode, the classic mode will use the frames original tool kit while the new version will be exclusive to the challenge version of the game.

-Last point is just spitting ideas so it may not make much sense or is not well thought out.

That is all of them so far but I will one day make a post with the thoughts laid out in a clearer state.

 

Thanks for those who read this mess. Have a cookie 🍪

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

 

For starters, you can choose to select an alternate version of the start chart with significant balance changes that allow for more of a challenging version of warframe. 

 

A common suggestion that was proposed before, a good one. 

Resuming/improving/adding some recommendations: 

1. Improve A.I., enemy load outs where enemies carries three weapons. Improve their energy shielding. DE has all the assets already. 

2. Learn from the Marauder in Doom Eternal. He uses his shield intelligently. 

3. Introduce middle boss fight in unexpected situations. DE has all the models already

4. Reduce Area of Effect and invulnerability to small quarters or simply add cool downs. 

5. Enemy reads out the War Frame tier selecting better strategies and exposition, if possible. 

6. Increase enemy level from the get go. 200 level already available on the star chart maps. 

7. Improve the architecture of stages that are frequently visited by the community like Akkad, Hydron, ESO, SO, The void Orokin Ship tileset. 

This list consider everything. It regulates War Frames, improves enemies and updates game assets. The problem is addressed restituting the health of the game. 

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37 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

A common suggestion that was proposed before, a good one. 

Resuming/improving/adding some recommendations: 

1. Improve A.I., enemy load outs where enemies carries three weapons. Improve their energy shielding. DE has all the assets already. 

2. Learn from the Marauder in Doom Eternal. He uses his shield intelligently. 

3. Introduce middle boss fight in unexpected situations. DE has all the models already

4. Reduce Area of Effect and invulnerability to small quarters or simply add cool downs. 

5. Enemy reads out the War Frame tier selecting better strategies and exposition, if possible. 

6. Increase enemy level from the get go. 200 level already available on the star chart maps. 

7. Improve the architecture of stages that are frequently visited by the community like Akkad, Hydron, ESO, SO, The void Orokin Ship tileset. 

This list consider everything. It regulates War Frames, improves enemies and updates game assets. The problem is addressed restituting the health of the game. 

I like your ideas. Additionally, maybe nulls could be redone to rather being a big bubble that deactivates abilities, could be a guy that provides personal shields for enemies within range which makes them immune to our powers. This way, it does not outright disable our powers, rather make it that we need to use other weapons or find the null dude.

 

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55 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

I like your ideas. Additionally, maybe nulls could be redone to rather being a big bubble that deactivates abilities, could be a guy that provides personal shields for enemies within range which makes them immune to our powers. This way, it does not outright disable our powers, rather make it that we need to use other weapons or find the null dude.

That would do the same thing as nullies already do, but harder to see. (I'm getting arbitration drone vibes here)

I think nullies are fine with its bubble. The bubble itself acts as a massive indicator that a nully exist. On all the group of enemies that are in the game, the nullifier is the first one spotted because of it.

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Ironies are welcome. 

It was meant in a positive way.  

Hyldrin allows panoptic vision of the field while she elevates vertically. 

Zephyr provides quick altitude gain with vertical boosts while he hovers and glides more than other frames. 

But what does that have to do with anything behind the design of Jupiter?

Hildryn cannot use her #4 in the new rooms that were added to Jupiter, since they have no ground. So you'll be able to get one sec of airtime on her then she falls into the abyss slowly since the moment you step or hover off a ledge with her you'll be at maximum supported altitude and the only place to go from there is down. And in the old very vertical rooms with floors, she'll only get a fraction of the way up, because there is an altitude limit on Aegis Storm. So where parkour lets you wall "climb" or bullet jump to the top, Aegis will sit about halfway down on the wall and not get further up than that. She cant even take a shortcut in the "reactor stairs" portion of the map i.e going from the start of stair #1 and going diagonally vertical to the end of stair #2, because it is at a too high altitude. She can barely hover next to the stairs and reach the start of stair #2.

Zephyr can gain vertical boosts, but that is not useful given the design of the new rooms on Jupiter that are for mainly horizontal movement, either through bullet jump/aim glide or wall running. Her bonus glide also doesnt add anything if you actually know how to parkour in the first place. And trying to use her #1 to swoosh around is counter productive to parkour since you have less control over your actions since one click is full speed ahead. She can still substitute vertical bullet jumps in the old Jupiter rooms with her #1, but that is old design still and has nothing to do with the new rooms on Jupiter, it is still also slower than just bullet jumping, because you need to engage and disengage her #1.

Titania is the one that benefits from her skillset in the new Jupiter rooms, same as Wukong, but so is the case on every other single map in the game for those two.

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