Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Midas]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

People like this are the problem of the game that want everything nerfed  and unnecessary difficult. No thanks I’d rather have fun and be an all powerful space ninja mowing everything down in site. Then having artificial bullet sponge difficulty.

Well, we just have different opinions. I assure you there are many people like me. An opinion is not a problem, digital extremes does not listen to anybody for feedback imo. What you give is just a grain of salt. My Kuva disruption feedback is a testament to that. You believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe, especially because I am someone who has a deep love for the success of Warframe.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Midas

[Tinklzs]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lumen2ne1 said:

You can't just magically make challenge on a power fantasy horde shooter like Warframe without changing the core mechanics of the game first

I disagree.

For most frames you can put a resistance. If nova can slow you by 75%, playing on this hard/ultra hard difficulty nova could only slow by 20-25% (50% resistance).

For other frames where they have abilities that deal damage, resistance could be used (saryn, equinox, mesa) but I'm not sure if that would work effectively, perhaps some thinking might be required. Meaning it might take more than a moment to map it all out, I've spoken of challenge for quite awhile (but still enjoy the power fantasy, and yes we can have both) yet when I cannot immediately answer some questions on how I would balance something, I'm told it isn't possible then. 

I think some frames would need a closer inspection on their abilities to see how it would work, for example maybe status effects have a 30-40% less duration. 

These are random ideas, for a more thorough explanation it would be easier to talk with those in DE who would be working on it and bounce ideas back and forth. Because they're more experienced with the system/engine/design and for the most part know what direction they want to take Warframe. 

 

Grendel missions I think are a bad thing in a game like warframe, removing the gear you worked for isn't a great overall balance. It's a form of it, sure; but ultimately makes your grind a moot point, which is one of the big factors of warframe collecting loot to test it out. I think if they're going into the realm of challenge having some enemies react faster wouldn't be a bad idea either, if done correctly. Dodging a bombard missile that can one shot you feels bad-ass, not so much when it can't even hurt your shields enough to notice (but it's still cool).

 

One idea that I've thought of in the past for nuke frames, instead of having them deal raw killing damage, why not (in the ultra hard, mainly) game modes, switch them to a.. support focus?

Hear me out.

Saryn deals corrosive damage with her spores, so instead of that dealing massive damage over time, why not have it strip (or as close as we can get now with revised) armor to help with teammates dealing damage with their abilities/weapons?  

 

I see the trailers and see the teamwork being shown, and that looks very appealing. Then I wonder what interested potential players would think if they seen the (in the cinematic trailer) the mag and volt getting 99% of the kills while poster-boy excalibur gets maybe 5 kills, and the kubrow is glitched out growling at a crate. Just sucks that the level of teamwork shown in the trailers isn't necessary most of the time due to frames being able to handle all content with little to no issues. And while that's nice for diversity, I think it's a waste of potential, due to each frame having unique attributes/traits/quirks yet that not being utilized for difference in mission completion or giving variety in how a mission is handled.

A decent example, vent is blocked when doing sortie spy, loki/ivara/octavia can't get in, but titania (because she's so small) can. Allowing you to use a path that otherwise wouldn't be possible.   Different doors could be disabled on a mission (rubble etc) and tank type frames, rhino, nidus, inaros (etc) could open these pathways for an alternative route. If enemies are a threat, or multiple objectives need to be done, or an extra reward was given for accessing these areas - I think it would be a great thing.  The power fantasy is fun, but the potential for something more is there, and I think it's reachable.   Baby steps (like a quest, similar to grendel) then expand if it's liked is all I can really think of for testing it live.

 

  

3 minutes ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

People like this are the problem of the game that want everything nerfed  and unnecessary difficult. No thanks I’d rather have fun and be an all powerful space ninja mowing everything down in site. Then having artificial bullet sponge difficulty.

This is one of the issues. Players get defensive when talking about messing with balance, even when it would be in an isolated area that you could only encounter  if you go in yourself. Grendel balance or Conclave balance isn't in the rest of warframe, just those areas. Test a these ideas in a quest (be it a frame or something else) and see how it plays out, if it doesn't work - you tried - but if it does work, then you might have some new angle to look at going forward. 

 

Edit: and this isn't even touching the parkour aspect. Jupiter's tileset rework greatly expanded and focused on parkour as an element (which was already heavily used, but not really utilized properly or required in some aspects that it could've been for the rest of the starchart).   Dodging or shooting enemies that are flying via jetpack, going from spot to spot, where falling is certain doom (but with ways of getting out, like wall latching).  This is what I would like to see more of, AI or unique /niche enemies being put on a pedestal where they shine (jetpack guys in jupiter tileset).  It doesn't have to be a complete rework of the game, or a complete rework of the AI. 

Utilize what we have already, bring them up a bit in value (enemies) tone us down a bit, without swinging too hard (again, only for this area, like grendel/conclave) and see how it works. Worst thing is, it isn't well received (like grendel, salvage, defection, ... etc.) and players 'pit stop and go' grab what they want and never touch it again. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tinklzs

[Midas]

I think it is important that we look at some aspects of Warframe as the 'Old World Warframe' and the "New World Warframe" Old world consists of items that represent exponential damage multis like old condition overload (which is now the mecha empowered set essentially) and weapons that deal godly amounts of damage that the game is insane. New World being weapons, abilities, and more that are balanced for level 200-400 area or even less (Kuva Seer, and literally almost all the weapons Warframe has to offer besides the few dozen that are stupid strong.).

Edited May 18, 2020 by Midas

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

For most frames you can put a resistance. If nova can slow you by 75%, playing on this hard/ultra hard difficulty nova could only slow by 20-25% (50% resistance).

For other frames where they have abilities that deal damage, resistance could be used (saryn, equinox, mesa)

Oh hey would you look at that, self buffer meta

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

 

 

5 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

This. And while we're at it let's stop pretending that "hurr durr just make it harder" is automatically good game design. 

5 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Fully agree, people should just accept the direction of the game instead of trying to turn it into dark souls 4, while basically pissing off the majority of players.

Warframe won't survive if the majority is gone. 

This. If I wanted to play dark souls I'd go play dark souls. If I wanted to play destiny I'd go play destiny.

[RamonLLLL]

Great idea guys let DE patch every weapon to max damage and every Warframe to max power and see if you guys who want a "power fantasy" still find the game enjoyable in one week.

Difficult = Dark Souls? Is that the logic you're going with or have you people not played enough games?

Edited May 18, 2020 by RamonLeeYJ

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

51 minutes ago, Midas said:

Well, we just have different opinions. I assure you there are many people like me. An opinion is not a problem, digital extremes does not listen to anybody for feedback imo. What you give is just a grain of salt. My Kuva disruption feedback is a testament to that. You believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe, especially because I am someone who has a deep love for the success of Warframe.

I think you went over  your heard with that and took what I said too literally. I don’t hate anyone I just think that’s a bad idea.

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

10 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

Great idea guys let DE patch every weapon to max damage and every Warframe to max power and see if you guys who want a "power fantasy" still find the game enjoyable in one week.

Difficult = Dark Souls? Is that the logic you're going with or have you people not played enough games?

That’s why mods are in the game. 

[RamonLLLL]

Just now, (NSW)JJA209 said:

That’s why mods are in the game. 

No, no, no. Don't you get it? The community has decided in the last pages already, they want Warframe: Cookie Clicker, they want "power fantasy". The Press-4-to-Nuke fantasy, the Kill-Tileset-in-One-Sweep fantasy. They want the foil to sadomasochistic games, the ultimate anti-Fromsoftware game. So why even bother with mods? 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

17 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

every weapon to max damage

Exaggerations aside. I feel weapons are fine the way they are.  But more fundamentally, hitscan needs to go bye bye. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[Hypernaut1]

55 minutes ago, Midas said:

Well, we just have different opinions. I assure you there are many people like me. An opinion is not a problem, digital extremes does not listen to anybody for feedback imo. What you give is just a grain of salt. My Kuva disruption feedback is a testament to that. You believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe, especially because I am someone who has a deep love for the success of Warframe.

i dont know why there is pushback. I think many of us want challenge in addition to what we have already. We arent asking for the entire game to be "darksouls" difficulty. Both playstyles can co-exist in Warframe. Just give those of us that want our gear, mods and skills challenged a space to play. Personally, i dont even want much extra as far as rewards either.

Its almost like some feel that making the game have a hard mode will destroy that concept of power they think they have. 

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

8 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

No, no, no. Don't you get it? The community has decided in the last pages already, they want Warframe: Cookie Clicker, they want "power fantasy". The Press-4-to-Nuke fantasy, the Kill-Tileset-in-One-Sweep fantasy. They want the foil to sadomasochistic games, the ultimate anti-Fromsoftware game. So why even bother with mods? 

Oh I see what you mean yeah that would be trash as well.

[Midas]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

 I just think that’s a bad idea.

We are just disagreeing then on how we pleasure ourselves in the game. Relaxed power fantasy to progression opinions.

[Midas]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

Oh I see what you mean yeah that would be trash as well.

I'd like to correct you, this is the current. It exists and is not an idea sadly.

[IceColdHawk]

When i see "challenges" like forma a weapon or... "elite weekly" like finishing a capture mission within a whole 1 and a half minute time to spare...i don't wanna see what DE can think of when trying to make this game "challenging".

As much as i'd like some challenges with good rewards, that ain't happening. And if they really tried...oh boy.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, Midas said:

My own agenda? This was Warframe's agenda wayyy back in the day (2013-2015)! The pinnacle was trials or some hard coordination content that required teamwork by using your frame's abilities together! This game has changed dramatically into something else over the years. Tbh the devs don't really listen to feedback anyways who knows! Maybe they will slaughter all the frames or maybe they will continue to make it brain dead looter shooter! Honestly, i'm at the point where DE should do what they want and not what we want to fix their masterpiece. The amount of opinions for the direction of this game are so wide in colors, that it will only tear it apart.

I was talking to the original thread creator, unless this is an alt account?

Trials were removed because it wasnt a popular game mode, this proves my point the 'challenging' game mode (which wasnt actually challenging but required a great deal of coordination) was removed from the game.

Another recent example is railjack, when it first came out the player base complained about the steep curve required to go from Earth to Saturn and the from Saturn to the veil. Enemies being too tanky and doing too much dmg was also a complaint and as a result the game mode wasnt well received. 

After the recent updates the game mode is now easier to pick up and get into and as a result more players are playing railjack now.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, Midas said:

My own agenda? This was Warframe's agenda wayyy back in the day (2013-2015)! The pinnacle was trials or some hard coordination content that required teamwork by using your frame's abilities together! This game has changed dramatically into something else over the years. Tbh the devs don't really listen to feedback anyways who knows! Maybe they will slaughter all the frames or maybe they will continue to make it brain dead looter shooter! Honestly, i'm at the point where DE should do what they want and not what we want to fix their masterpiece. The amount of opinions for the direction of this game are so wide in colors, that it will only tear it apart.

I was talking to the original thread creator, unless this is an alt account?

Trials were removed because it wasnt a popular game mode, this proves my point the 'challenging' game mode (which wasnt actually challenging but required a great deal of coordination) was removed from the game.

Another recent example is railjack, when it first came out the player base complained about the steep curve required to go from Earth to Saturn and the from Saturn to the veil. Enemies being too tanky and doing too much dmg was also a complaint and as a result the game mode wasnt well received. 

After the recent updates the game mode is now easier to pick up and get into and as a result more players are playing railjack now.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, Midas said:

My own agenda? This was Warframe's agenda wayyy back in the day (2013-2015)! The pinnacle was trials or some hard coordination content that required teamwork by using your frame's abilities together! This game has changed dramatically into something else over the years. Tbh the devs don't really listen to feedback anyways who knows! Maybe they will slaughter all the frames or maybe they will continue to make it brain dead looter shooter! Honestly, i'm at the point where DE should do what they want and not what we want to fix their masterpiece. The amount of opinions for the direction of this game are so wide in colors, that it will only tear it apart.

I was talking to the original thread creator, unless this is an alt account?

Trials were removed because it wasnt a popular game mode, this proves my point the 'challenging' game mode (which wasnt actually challenging but required a great deal of coordination) was removed from the game.

Another recent example is railjack, when it first came out the player base complained about the steep curve required to go from Earth to Saturn and the from Saturn to the veil. Enemies being too tanky and doing too much dmg was also a complaint and as a result the game mode wasnt well received. 

After the recent updates the game mode is now easier to pick up and get into and as a result more players are playing railjack now.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, Midas said:

My own agenda? This was Warframe's agenda wayyy back in the day (2013-2015)! The pinnacle was trials or some hard coordination content that required teamwork by using your frame's abilities together! This game has changed dramatically into something else over the years. Tbh the devs don't really listen to feedback anyways who knows! Maybe they will slaughter all the frames or maybe they will continue to make it brain dead looter shooter! Honestly, i'm at the point where DE should do what they want and not what we want to fix their masterpiece. The amount of opinions for the direction of this game are so wide in colors, that it will only tear it apart.

I was talking to the original thread creator, unless this is an alt account?

Trials were removed because it wasnt a popular game mode, this proves my point the 'challenging' game mode (which wasnt actually challenging but required a great deal of coordination) was removed from the game.

Another recent example is railjack, when it first came out the player base complained about the steep curve required to go from Earth to Saturn and the from Saturn to the veil. Enemies being too tanky and doing too much dmg was also a complaint and as a result the game mode wasnt well received. 

After the recent updates the game mode is now easier to pick up and get into and as a result more players are playing railjack now.

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

Honestly when it comes to the difficultly and the game play of warframe I’m on the fence of leaving the game the way it is and not changing the difficulty. Why change  things that arnt broken and work perfectly fine. I personally don’t like seeing all these nerfs and buffs to things. Just leave it how it is.Why fix things that aren’t broken. That’s my two cents.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, Midas said:

My own agenda? This was Warframe's agenda wayyy back in the day (2013-2015)! The pinnacle was trials or some hard coordination content that required teamwork by using your frame's abilities together! This game has changed dramatically into something else over the years. Tbh the devs don't really listen to feedback anyways who knows! Maybe they will slaughter all the frames or maybe they will continue to make it brain dead looter shooter! Honestly, i'm at the point where DE should do what they want and not what we want to fix their masterpiece. The amount of opinions for the direction of this game are so wide in colors, that it will only tear it apart.

I was talking to the original thread creator, unless this is an alt account?

Trials were removed because it wasnt a popular game mode, this proves my point the 'challenging' game mode (which wasnt actually challenging but required a great deal of coordination) was removed from the game.

Another recent example is railjack, when it first came out the player base complained about the steep curve required to go from Earth to Saturn and the from Saturn to the veil. Enemies being too tanky and doing too much dmg was also a complaint and as a result the game mode wasnt well received. 

After the recent updates the game mode is now easier to pick up and get into and as a result more players are playing railjack now.

[Felsagger]

 

 

If you want a cake walk, then this should not deserve the name of video game. This is a 3d display of a "captura' digital action figure toy environment. Is this the product you want? 

Fine. 

 

Rest in Peace War Frame. 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Felsagger

[Midas]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

I was talking to the original thread creator, unless this is an alt account?

Trials were removed because it wasnt a popular game mode, this proves my point the 'challenging' game mode (which wasnt actually challenging but required a great deal of coordination) was removed from the game.

Another recent example is railjack, when it first came out the player base complained about the steep curve required to go from Earth to Saturn and the from Saturn to the veil. Enemies being too tanky and doing too much dmg was also a complaint and as a result the game mode wasnt well received. 

After the recent updates the game mode is now easier to pick up and get into and as a result more players are playing railjack now.

I agree with trials being too puzzled based, which is why I suggested DE was aiming for coordination content then (boss fights).

I disagree with railjack being too difficult, I think the problem with Warframe that is unsolvable is progression is nullified. If not everybody can access it or do it day one it will be adjust for everyone :/. This is something that is permanent now and cannot be adjusted because it will result in loss of income via player count drop. I personally don't believe enemies were that difficult in railjack all the way to the veil (12 min veil missions and under).

My proof for most of this is a large amount of players that I have talked to are constantly finding Warframe (After the first three or four months) mundane and tasteless.

I still don't believe more people are picking up railjack, unless you have proof of a decent amount of squads in railjack missions.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Midas

[DaMasque]

I like the more "fail condition" mentality.

Late game defense can have none stop waves, expect for reward waves.

In survival, introduce a new enemy that saps life support, killing it grantees a life support module. 

Excavators can have nullie properties.

I agree that nerfing warframes will cause mass panic and in my opinion, our mission types are really stale for long term players.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

14 minutes ago, Midas said:

I agree with trials being too puzzled based, which is why I suggested DE was aiming for coordination content then (boss fights).

I disagree with railjack being too difficult, I think the problem with Warframe that is unsolvable is progression is nullified. If not everybody can access it or do it day one it will be adjust for everyone :/. This is something that is permanent now and cannot be adjusted because it will result in loss of income via player count drop. I personally don't believe enemies were that difficult in railjack all the way to the veil (12 min veil missions and under).

My proof for most of this is a large amount of players that I have talked to are constantly finding Warframe (After the first three or four months) mundane and tasteless.

I still don't believe more people are picking up railjack, unless you have proof of a decent amount of squads in railjack missions.

Railjack was considered too difficult regardless of whether u disagree or not, this was even mentioned by DE. Hence why it was changed, I didnt find the game difficult myself, just needlessly grindy and long. Spending half a mission fire fighting, closing breaches and dealing with a ton of onboard invaders with huge amounts of health and armour wasnt fun and newer players without fully forma'd weapons, mods etc. That I had would have struggled for sure.

Ur proof is flawed then, that shows the game is not for them and that would still equate to a very minuscule amount of the player base. And from what u wrote it sounds like a bigger problem than just game difficulty.. 

More people are picking up railjack, I remember how hard it was to find games previously. Now I'm constantly having people join my games and end up in a full team, this is on xbox, I cant say if it's the same on PS4 or PC but given Xbox is the second smallest player base on console  I would say this is pretty telling.