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Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first


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@Jarriaganice post, thank you for the summary. It is refreshing to see/hear developers speak of their game. Unfortunately, I do not believe in those crocodile tears.

Discussed issue is as old as Warframe itself. When Pablo is talking about AI off switch, I have to think about Nova's MP, which exists since July 13th, 2013. DE created those problematic abilities and maneuvered themselves into present situation. All feedback on this matter has been effectively ignored for years. Words and following actions just do not match. When Steve humbly explained why Catchmoon received a nerf, I thought this could be a turning point. Month and a half later they release K: Nukor & K. Dramma, two additions which eclipse everything else by a mile, and then go even further beyond. Seems there is not only friction with the community.

Speaking of community. Being held hostage by a whiny and uneducated bunch is exactly what DE deserves. With all the devstreams and an incredibly active forum DE could not form a unified community. The very first response perfectly shows discrepancy within the player base. There are constant forum wars because players have their own visions of the game, as DE failed to create one for them. DE themselves have no final vision, how can they communicate how WF should be or ask for propper player feedback?
For some reason, Tweeter is a better source of information as well as a better platform for targeted feedback. Like Steve's survey. I learned about it from Shy's DevStream summary. Why?
Or "Khora bugfix". I do understand the change, I even agree with it. But where is the communication? Players are more willing to accept changes, if reasons behind them are properly explained and the direction towards the end product is made clear. At least, lately there are some attempts on explaination; end goal remains undefined though.
Even this topic belongs on a Devstream! That's what they are for.

My point is: nothing will change. Those interviews are a PR stunt to release steam within the community and gain some goodwill creddits. Target audience are players, who wish for an engaging and challenging experience, as those palyers are the loudest right now and require a pacifier. Power fantasy crowd is fine with the current situation. Community as a whole is extremely inhomogeneous and DE will never make a move to alienate a fraction of it, even if it means to create a better product.

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4 hours ago, Midas said:

Minuscule imo not so much anymore. Those statistics need to be update, i'm seeing A LOT more players talking about it. 30 million players imo registered is another thing to consider. Not all those 30 million players play, heck, not even 100k people are on at the same time according to the steam charts.

I'll check tomorrow how the PC community is doing via squads etc...

Surely u understand the players u are seeing still only make up a minuscule amount of the player base?

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Ah yes, I think I missed something to add, in case of those who want difficulty, you may want to consider about our failure consequence

Whenever you fail a mission, you lose everything you get, only a few credits and exp gained as the consequence

Let's put it in simulation :

Let's say you played missions when the difficulty and challenge have been increased and you got those rare drops (condition overload, vengeful revenant, shedu parts, etc.), and because of one mistake, you failed these mission and now you're staring down your screen, seeing those drops disappear right in front of your eyes through multiple missions because of increased difficulty and challenge

Now, who's to blame for the failure other than yourself for not being able to do the mission? Is that what you want?

 

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Harder content will narrow the meta, being able to play anything is really relieving in waframe when you switch from other video games (Borderlands 3 endgame with less than half a dozen weapons useable in endgame while you have billions of different weapons ain't great tbh).

Also I don't want any cheese gameplay that screw your warframe powers and push AoE or high rof weapons "spray and pray" ain't fun : we already have nullifier spam when you play against corpus (or corrupted), or parasitic eximus spam when you play against infested, tbh past 1h in T3 / T4 defense / survival / arbitration against those two factions already lead to very specific gameplay.

The smart move DE did is disruption, in this game mode the demolyst are not totally immune but still hard to kill and not tedious bullet sponge, and you can actually fail to defend but have still have several attempts before losing.

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The beauty of Warframe is in the fact that it's a fast paced highly customisable power fantasy.

Of course you're going to piss off the majority of the community if you "nerf" or restrict the power of the player. 

I'll never understand why people continually call for nerfs to player power in a game that is loved exactly for that. All in the name of this concept of "balance." 

Let the game be what it is and what it is loved for and be careful what you wish for because I would suggest that if Warframe's direction retreats from it being a power fantasy it will not last long.

 

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18 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Ah yes, I think I missed something to add, in case of those who want difficulty, you may want to consider about our failure consequence

Whenever you fail a mission, you lose everything you get, only a few credits and exp gained as the consequence

Let's put it in simulation :

Let's say you played missions when the difficulty and challenge have been increased and you got those rare drops (condition overload, vengeful revenant, shedu parts, etc.), and because of one mistake, you failed these mission and now you're staring down your screen, seeing those drops disappear right in front of your eyes through multiple missions because of increased difficulty and challenge

Now, who's to blame for the failure other than yourself for not being able to do the mission? Is that what you want?

 

Yes failure for not being able to complete something and losing said rewards is frustrating but it also brings engagement and generally making the player want to learn or not repeat what they did wrong 

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12 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Fully agree, people should just accept the direction of the game instead of trying to turn it into dark souls 4, while basically pissing off the majority of players.

Warframe won't survive if the majority is gone. 

 

12 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

Exactly... I do not understand this obsession with a complete transformation of the game into (insert whatever game the guy making the post is tickled by). Enjoy the game for what it is, and move on to other stuff to scratch your itch whenever and wherever you please. 

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1 minute ago, Kamachi said:

The beauty of Warframe is in the fact that it's a fast paced highly customisable power fantasy.

Of course you're going to piss off the majority of the community if you "nerf" or restrict the power of the player. 

I'll never understand why people continually call for nerfs to player power in a game that is loved exactly for that. All in the name of this concept of "balance." 

Let the game be what it is and what it is loved for and be careful what you wish for because I would suggest that if Warframe's direction retreats from it being a power fantasy it will not last long.

 

Warframe won’t die either way. Just as people threaten to leave every update and some do. Players will keep playing and adapt. Balance imo would bring more longevity to the game and older players back. And may shy off newer players to an extent. But In the long run balance is needed for a sustainable product 

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Just now, Nehra96 said:

 

Exactly... I do not understand this obsession with a complete transformation of the game into (insert whatever game the guy making the post is tickled by). Enjoy the game for what it is, and move on to other stuff to scratch your itch whenever and wherever you please. 

Nobody wants wf to turn into x y or z game because we play other games ( DE already does a great job of taking others ideas and trying to make it fit wf) but right now people see the game as bland. The criticism at hand at least how I interpret it is that players want balance and the game to actually be less of a “pop heads turn your brain off” and more of a “pop heads but hey I do have to pay attention more then usual” 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Warframe won’t die either way. Just as people threaten to leave every update and some do. Players will keep playing and adapt. Balance imo would bring more longevity to the game and older players back. And may shy off newer players to an extent. But In the long run balance is needed for a sustainable product 

If Warframe drastically diverts from its core appeal I very much doubt it would last long.

You all keep throwing the word "balance" around without further explanation. What does "balance" mean to you? Is it going to be the same meaning to everyone else? 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Nobody wants wf to turn into x y or z game because we play other games ( DE already does a great job of taking others ideas and trying to make it fit wf) but right now people see the game as bland. The criticism at hand at least how I interpret it is that players want balance and the game to actually be less of a “pop heads turn your brain off” and more of a “pop heads but hey I do have to pay attention more then usual” 

Well, that's fair enough. But while we (players who play for plain dumb fun) do not object to them (people who want to chew on nails for fun) having tougher content, they certainly want everything that we like and enjoy to be taken away. That's where the problem comes in. 

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1 minute ago, Kamachi said:

If Warframe drastically diverts from its core appeal I very much doubt it would last long.

You all keep throwing the word "balance" around without further explanation. What does "balance" mean to you? Is it going to be the same meaning to everyone else? 

Liches rj and you can even argue Nightwave divert from the core appeal. And players are still here. 

And balance for me is making more things viable while also bringing down some of the power fantasy slightly and buffing other items until the gap between things aren’t as massive as they are

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1 minute ago, Nehra96 said:

Well, that's fair enough. But while we (players who play for plain dumb fun) do not object to them (people who want to chew on nails for fun) having tougher content, they certainly want everything that we like and enjoy to be taken away. That's where the problem comes in. 

It’s not  warframe gets turned into dark souls and plenty of people have said. There are different scales and types of difficulty. Nobody wants wf to turn into dark souls because I can just go play a souls borne game for that. What people are saying is. We’d like to have missions that require more engagement more focus on what your doing etc. the main problem / success of warframe is players don’t have to think. But what happens when your not thinking about the gameplay or during the gameplay. You start to only focus on what it is at it’s core. Grind and that’s it. The current gamplay loop for wf is just grind for????? Then???? Grind for ??? Why???? Then???? Grind for????. 

While many other rpgs and other games do repeat this pattern the grind is masked by either an engaging core gameplay loop. 

A clear endgoal(or endgame) 

or other aspects that can keep the player engaged besides popping skulls and robot dressup. 

 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Liches rj and you can even argue Nightwave divert from the core appeal. And players are still here

That's somewhat faulty reasoning. Warframes and their power and playstyle is the exact same for liches and even railjack. You can still do the same stuff in both places with the same gear. (I mean some differences are there of course but my point still stands.)

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Liches rj and you can even argue Nightwave divert from the core appeal. And players are still here. 

And balance for me is making more things viable while also bringing down some of the power fantasy slightly and buffing other items until the gap between things aren’t as massive as they are

How are Kuva Liches and Railjack deviations from the games core appeal? They are compliments to the core game if anything and are not overly difficult as evident from the sheer amount of low MR players running around spamming Bramma until their hearts content. 

The problem of the "just balance the game" philosophy lies in the fact that any "balance" pass is open to a wide variety of interpretation. 

We should also remember that we here on the Warframe Forums and indeed the Reddit page are a tiny vocal minority of players compared to the overall playerbase as a whole. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

But what happens when your not thinking about the gameplay or during the gameplay. You start to only focus on what it is at it’s core. Grind and that’s it. The current gamplay loop for wf is just grind for????? Then???? Grind for ??? Why???? Then???? Grind for????. 

Like I said... 

9 minutes ago, Nehra96 said:

(players who play for plain dumb fun)

When you are not worrying about the perfect calcualtions for whatever stuff you are doing, you may end up having some fun. 

You did not address what I said. I perfectly agree with hardmode and ultrahard mode. But why does certain sections want to delete my playstyle's complete existence? Why can't they be happy with their own slice of the cake and have to throw away everyone elses'? 

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1 minute ago, Nehra96 said:

That's somewhat faulty reasoning. Warframes and their power and playstyle is the exact same for liches and even railjack. You can still do the same stuff in both places with the same gear. (I mean some differences are there of course but my point still stands.)

I can agree somewhat but rj liches and even nightwave divert from the consensus “just get on and pop heads and get off” 

rj a massive new system requiring everyone to start over with new items resources etc behind a grind - the mobs were tankier and you just can’t “pop heads”

liches - tougher enemies that have potential to kill and fail you in a mission(to an extent) stops the “flow of the game” if you choose to take one on etc 

nightwave. In many occasions forces you to go out and do things like fish mine etc and or do certain task to negate somewhat of the factor of what the seemingly majority of players want to do. But I have my personal gripes with this system as you should earn standing for just completing missions and it shouldn’t require you to go directly out of your way doing unnecessary task. It should reward you for playing and incentivize you to do these tasks by greater standing gain within them

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

rj a massive new system requiring everyone to start over with new items resources etc behind a grind - the mobs were tankier and you just can’t “pop heads”

liches - tougher enemies that have potential to kill and fail you in a mission(to an extent) stops the “flow of the game” if you choose to take one on etc 

Most of my friend base do not play these gamemodes regularly. Whenever I log in, I run everything in classic side of the game. But I rarely do railjack stuff, and I kill a lich in over 5-10 day period. I suppose DE has exact stats on this, but majority of the playerbase is not doing these tasks at any encouraging rate for the amount of energy and time spent in their development. 

(Also while my own example doesn't mean anything for the entire game, I never do fishing or spooder hunts or terry captures, I have always been able to ignore them and still get whatever I wanted from NW. I think this is a plus point with the NW system and I really like being able to choose like this.)

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7 minutes ago, Nehra96 said:

Like I said... 

When you are not worrying about the perfect calcualtions for whatever stuff you are doing, you may end up having some fun. 

You did not address what I said. I perfectly agree with hardmode and ultrahard mode. But why does certain sections want to delete my playstyle's complete existence? Why can't they be happy with their own slice of the cake and have to throw away everyone elses'? 

I’m not saying throw away someone else’s preferred playstyle. But as a long standing player myself I’d enjoy representation for my groups tastes in the game as well. When others have offered optional or opt in things to Change warframe players like yourself (not you) have stated that it would need the core of warframe changed for it to work and they’d not want that. But also in analogy to your cake reference. How would you feel if you haven’t got a slice of cake In awhile especially when it appears you’d get one and it’s taken away mid bite. (Eso Arby’s lor etc) 

also I’m not a numbers guy unless I’m doing direct PvP you don’t have to be a complete analyst to want engagement in game. Right now in my opinion warframe requires no engagement and I actively seek to use it. To go to sleep. I’d love to have mission types or modes that give the threat of failure or would require me to pay a bit of attention rather then the little amount of effort that is required to do almost everything in game.

 

also may I add hard and ultra hard mode dosent really do anything as players were still oneshotting high level content and running through it with the same little amount of effort.  Me telling my friends this news resulted in. “Okay we’re still going to burn through missions but maybe it’ll take like 2-3 more minutes tops”

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7 hours ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

I disagree. I think he is 100% wrong. Taking the easy way out by nerfing frames for the sake of "balance" while leaving enemies to still be just dated lemmings that run past WFs and have abismal reaction time with dated fundamentals, mechanics and bewildering tactics will change nothing but piss off the rest of the player base. 

Tell me, what tactics get past a theoretically infinite damage radial explosion with a secondary passive killaura?

How fast does an enemy need to react to deal with an AoE crowd control that prevents them from taking any action?

 

Enemy design is important yes, and it's something Warframe definitely struggles with, but to say that nerfing players is the 'easy way out' when we've gotten to a point where we're actively supressing avenues of enemy design is flawed.

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Ability resistance in Warframe isn't just resisting abilities at base. Ability resistance is only diminishing returns on subsequent casts after the first cast. While yes, self buffs will not be adversely affected, getting one full cast of a CC ability should be plenty to make those frames worthwhile.

Nevertheless, it still puts part of the frames on an uneven playing field. It's a better idea to just make the frames themselves balanced.

8 hours ago, 844448 said:

If you go with unranked warframe that only has 100 health, I haven't died from one clawing session with a fully ranked Excalibur before the armor increase with only 300 health on max level

As in, before a nerf.

8 hours ago, 844448 said:

They may lack back weak point, but they don't have any armor, making them not as tough as the other bursas

That's still the fact of the matter that they don't reward existing knowledge of the game.

8 hours ago, 844448 said:

Auditor has a back panel to shoot as its back weak point

I don't know about you, but I don't see any problem with those bursas yet

If it does (and I'm fairly sure that part doesn't count as a weak spot on Auditor), it's horribly conveyed given that they covered it over with armour plating, like it's King Hippo in Punch-Out Wii.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’m not saying throw away someone else’s preferred playstyle. But as a long standing player myself I’d enjoy representation for my groups tastes in the game as well. When others have offered optional or opt in things to Change warframe players like yourself (not you) have stated that it would need the core of warframe changed for it to work and they’d not want that. But also in analogy to your cake reference. How would you feel if you haven’t got a slice of cake In awhile especially when it appears you’d get one and it’s taken away mid bite. (Eso Arby’s lor etc) 

also I’m not a numbers guy unless I’m doing direct PvP you don’t have to be a complete analyst to want engagement in game. Right now in my opinion warframe requires no engagement and I actively seek to use it. To go to sleep. I’d love to have mission types or modes that give the threat of failure or would require me to pay a bit of attention rather then the little amount of effort that is required to do almost everything in game.

I am no expert, I am just a guy on the internet but I do believe that a lot of players are having relationship issues with the game at this moment. Some are too much attached, some have this perfect vision that they want the game to be, and stuff like that. Just like in a relationship if you keep suckling your partner 24×7, and try to force your own opinions or expectations over them... You will start to fall apart. 

Also DE has been to blame too, but I guess nobody's done anything like this before, so all their ups and downs can be excused in the grand scheme of things. They are trying to change, and while we may not get whatever we want them to do for us, it's still a good idea to be patient and hope for the best. Creating factions and throwing shade at one another for having a vision is not a good look for the community. 

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Why does everyone against balance drop everyone who wants challenge into "Warframe is a power fantasy it's meant to be easy" Difficulty is not the same thing as challenge. It's possible to have an easy challenge. Warframe's problem is it doesn't have any challenge at all. Every problem has the same solution. There's no tests of skill, no interesting encounters, just spam spam spam away.

 

Moreover, difficulty is a spectrum, not a binary between Dark Souls and Warframe. It's a spectrum - I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say I want more challenge and difficulty, I don't mean bringing it up to the levels of Sekiro, Devil May Cry, or even Halo. I mean bringing it up to the level of KIRBY.

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Why does everyone against balance drop everyone who wants challenge into "Warframe is a power fantasy it's meant to be easy" Difficulty is not the same thing as challenge. It's possible to have an easy challenge. Warframe's problem is it doesn't have any challenge at all. Every problem has the same solution. There's no tests of skill, no interesting encounters, just spam spam spam away.

 

Moreover, difficulty is a spectrum, not a binary between Dark Souls and Warframe. It's a spectrum - I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say I want more challenge and difficulty, I don't mean bringing it up to the levels of Sekiro, Devil May Cry, or even Halo. I mean bringing it up to the level of KIRBY.

They are introducing hard-mode. It's a step in the right direction for difficulty. But if they destroy the classic nature of the game, that would be a mistake. It is as simple as that. 

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1 minute ago, Nehra96 said:

They are introducing hard-mode. It's a step in the right direction for difficulty. But if they destroy the classic nature of the game, that would be a mistake. It is as simple as that. 

I assume you mean the classic nature of the game as super-speedy action game. Because not only is that already deviating from the classic nature of Warframe, but I would strongly argue that the ability spam meta is working against that super-speedy ninja action game.

Why, on this good green earth, should I ever bother jumping around, dodging, generally playing an action game, when it is objectively better (rewarding more loot in less time) to stand perfectly still, repetitively activating the same ability that kills everything for me? Or slowly walking around heashotting enemies that can't move to prevent me from doing so? Why on earth should I ever play Warframe?

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