So about the Nightwave Daily

[Steel_Rook]

21 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

That is the point. The challenges are grabbing all aspects of the game. YOU may not deploy specters, or have a need to use forma currently, but others do. 

Skip it if you don't like it. 

No, that's not the point. You're just repeating what I explicitly described as "not the point," in fact. My ability to do these challenges is not the issue here. I have the relevant resources in significant excess, I've no reason not to burn them. The issue is that these are not challenges. They're tantamount to purchases. They don't require you to DO anything, so much as HAVE specific items which can be stockpiled. As a result, it discourages people from socketing Ayatan Sculptures and applying Forma and tackling Silver Grove Spectres, etc. on a Saturday, just in case that turns into a Nightwave challenge on Monday.

I'm entirely capable of criticising the design of a challenge that I'm still fully capable of beating, you know.

 

9 hours ago, Els236 said:

And just like that, newer players, which, let's face it, these challenges are aimed at, are going to do things they wouldn't normally think of doing, or are not usually part of someone's daily play-session.

They really aren't, though. I don't think DE ever really commented on it, but Nightwave in general has always been hostile to new players. Today's Elite Weekly is the Exploiter Orb which new players lacking a single Forma wouldn't have access to, as well as Six perfect animal captures which players new to Fortuna wouldn't have the Lures to do, as well as clearing a Railjack boarding party without taking damage, which... Kind of needs either a Railjack or a cooperative captain. And that's ignoring stuff like Profit-Taker, Tridolons, Silver Grove Spectres, etc. In fact, the Silver Grove Spectres are one of the commonly-criticised inventory challenges, and those require a mid-game quest.

As I said above, inventory quests also create a fear of using one's own resources. I'm not even speaking off-hand here, myself and friends used to have this issue. We'd socket and sell our Ayatan Sculptures on Saturday because we needed the Endo, then be tasked with socketing three of them on Monday. We have Ayatans in excess now, but for a while we simply had a rule of not applying Forma or socketing Sculptures on a weekend, just in case. The design of these challenges is such that people are encouraged to hoard resources so they can "skip" them. If you ever find yourself in a situation of NEEDING a Forma but not having it, that "feels" like you screwed up and made your own life harder.

Not to mention that Forma in particular can be bought for Plat from the Market...

 

15 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I like all of those challenges, fast and easy to complete.  Who isn't using at least 1 forma a week anyway?  Specters are actually useful in exploiter match when playing solo to keep cooling spiders busy, so I just killed two in one match (or even use on the 20 wave defense).  Forma a weapon and level it as well.  I get what you are saying, but disagree with that philosophy.  I didn't even mind the build a kit gun "challenges", parts are cheap and it was a resource farm thing / passive level up.  

That's not a good thing, though. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily like the glorified Battle Pass that is Nightwave. However, skipping challenges entirely is just... Not good design. At that point, why even HAVE those challenges? They may as well not even exist, if the way we solve them amounts to flashing our virtual wallets. I'm not a huge fight of some of the gimmicky, achievement-like challenges but at least they give us something to DO. Inventory challenges really don't. Yes, they might for some exceptionally low-level players who don't feel like buying their Forma with Plat, but there's no gameplay in there for most people... And I don't think that's a good thing. Creating system which encourage us to ignore them is the wrong way to go about designing a video game.

[Els236]

Il y a 10 heures, Marine027 a dit :

1. Why i said they should had tweaked it, increase the spawns and also alongside Nightwave.

2. Somethign they need to finally push here, Codex and Simaris exist for a reason for not just tutorials but lore aswell, instead like with content we even get lore as content Island seen with Leviran being disconnted once again instead of inserting it into Simaris or the Codex fully, and no not just as button to get to it. Leviran is another gripe i have perosnaly due it is the old problem of "show, don't tell", i want visuals in my game, if i want to read text or hear it i buy a book or audiobook.

3. I say keep Nightwave how it is but not limited simply, challanges each week for points but without the fear of missing out, no RNG on the store simply not it switching each week, just plain simple offer all that the alerts had before, while exclusive stuff can stay limited due ranks and rather as ranks make them like milestones like the login reward, this way people want to catch up and can catch up without problems, while the story and lore parts should be unlocked as milestone reward as quests you can activate.

1 - Many people have asked why we couldn't have both Nightwave and Alerts and the thing is, it almost makes the Nightwave shop pointless.

2 - Yep. Completely agree.

3 - Have everything available in the Nightwave shop at all times? Yup, agree here too. As for your other point, most other game's Battlepass systems require the player to actually do something in order to progress through it. Having it like a secondary login reward makes no sense; they might as well just turn it INTO the login reward system, but then we'd be getting potentially good loot, for simply inputting our password once a day.

[Els236]

Il y a 9 heures, Steel_Rook a dit :

They really aren't, though. I don't think DE ever really commented on it, but Nightwave in general has always been hostile to new players. Today's Elite Weekly is the Exploiter Orb which new players lacking a single Forma wouldn't have access to, as well as Six perfect animal captures which players new to Fortuna wouldn't have the Lures to do, as well as clearing a Railjack boarding party without taking damage, which... Kind of needs either a Railjack or a cooperative captain. And that's ignoring stuff like Profit-Taker, Tridolons, Silver Grove Spectres, etc. In fact, the Silver Grove Spectres are one of the commonly-criticised inventory challenges, and those require a mid-game quest.

As I said above, inventory quests also create a fear of using one's own resources. I'm not even speaking off-hand here, myself and friends used to have this issue. We'd socket and sell our Ayatan Sculptures on Saturday because we needed the Endo, then be tasked with socketing three of them on Monday. We have Ayatans in excess now, but for a while we simply had a rule of not applying Forma or socketing Sculptures on a weekend, just in case. The design of these challenges is such that people are encouraged to hoard resources so they can "skip" them. If you ever find yourself in a situation of NEEDING a Forma but not having it, that "feels" like you screwed up and made your own life harder.

Not to mention that Forma in particular can be bought for Plat from the Market...

 

1 - I taxi'd a bunch of low-level people to Exploiter Orb for the Elite Weekly. As long as one person has Thermia in their inventory, the "bounty" can be started from within Orb Vallis and anyone can join, regardless of rank. This doesn't work if you start the bounty from within Fortuna, but it does work if you do it by going to Deck 12 and starting it manually.

2 - 6 perfect animal captures can be done with the TranQ Rifle and a Pobber Echo Lure, which is like 1.5K standing total at Rank 0/Rank 1 with Solaris United. As I said in my novel on the previous page, each sub-species counts as a different animal and so do both male/female animals. Very, very easy to get 6 perfects. Or, you know what? Ask the person that taxi'd to Exploiter Orb whether or not they can stick around and do the captures with you. Again, very easy to get 6. "Veteran" calls the animal and the newbie clicks X on it when it's downed - bam, done. I literally did this with a clanmate on the last week of the Nightwave Intermission. 

3 - Railjack one, same thing. Join a squad on Earth Proxima -> profit. 

I know a lot of people play Solo, but recruitment chat is there for a reason. You need help with the Nightwave, ask away and I know for a fact that someone will help eventually. 

 

The only one that will ever be an issue (that I can think of right now) is Profit Taker, because that has to be started as a bounty and you need Vox Solaris standing to do it. 

 

As for the inventory quests, yes I get it and I do agree with what you're saying. 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Els236

[Althaline]

2 hours ago, Els236 said:

Many people have asked why we couldn't have both Nightwave and Alerts and the thing is, it almost makes the Nightwave shop pointless.

If having Alerts would make the shop pointless, maybe the Alerts weren't the devil the forums made them out to be, hmm?

[Steel_Rook]

12 hours ago, Els236 said:

I know a lot of people play Solo, but recruitment chat is there for a reason. You need help with the Nightwave, ask away and I know for a fact that someone will help eventually. 

This is true - you can taxi low-level players through high-level Nightwave challenges. I wasn't aware that different-sex animals counted as unique, though that would explain my odd experience. Thanks 🙂

I think we've argued a full circle, though. My primary disagreement with "inventory challenges" is that they predominantly don't require that the player actually DO anything, so much as just HAVE the resources. Yes, low-level players who don't have everything in excess might have to go out and attain the necessary inventory (a friend of mine has no Forma right now), but that's activity by proxy. By contrast, the challenges you mention are activities literally. Even when carried, lowbies still have to go out and DO a thing. They have to BE at the Exploiter fight, they have to BE in Orb Vallis hunting animals, even if a higher-level player brings the lures, they have to BE in the Railjack, even if it's not their own. It might be passive participation, but it's still participation even when being carried.

With that said... Honestly, Warframe can do with fewer "tickets to ride." A lot of content in the game is gated behind what might as well be bus tickets just so you can access it. Want to fight the Exploiter? You need Diluted Thermia. Want to fight the Ambulas? You need a currency. Want to fight Kayla? Currency. Want to fight Silver Grove Spectres? Apothics. That's the only reason the Spectre Weekly had to be toned down from 3 to 1. It's not like the Spectres themselves are that hard.

[Els236]

Il y a 3 heures, Steel_Rook a dit :

This is true - you can taxi low-level players through high-level Nightwave challenges. I wasn't aware that different-sex animals counted as unique, though that would explain my odd experience. Thanks 🙂

I think we've argued a full circle, though. My primary disagreement with "inventory challenges" is that they predominantly don't require that the player actually DO anything, so much as just HAVE the resources. Yes, low-level players who don't have everything in excess might have to go out and attain the necessary inventory (a friend of mine has no Forma right now), but that's activity by proxy. By contrast, the challenges you mention are activities literally. Even when carried, lowbies still have to go out and DO a thing. They have to BE at the Exploiter fight, they have to BE in Orb Vallis hunting animals, even if a higher-level player brings the lures, they have to BE in the Railjack, even if it's not their own. It might be passive participation, but it's still participation even when being carried.

With that said... Honestly, Warframe can do with fewer "tickets to ride." A lot of content in the game is gated behind what might as well be bus tickets just so you can access it. Want to fight the Exploiter? You need Diluted Thermia. Want to fight the Ambulas? You need a currency. Want to fight Kayla? Currency. Want to fight Silver Grove Spectres? Apothics. That's the only reason the Spectre Weekly had to be toned down from 3 to 1. It's not like the Spectres themselves are that hard.

 

Not trying to be rude, but this is the best explanation that you have given to get your point across and I can't not agree with what you're saying to be honest. 

[Althaline]

It's back again with "use an Air Support Charge". I know they're not really that useful or expensive, but still. It's the principle of the thing.

[Aedwynn]

Another moment is that players are FORCED to participate in Nightwave, which as others said isn't newbie friendly at all. While current glass spawns are tolerable, Emissary's are not. Forced to deal with unvulnerable/resurrecting enemies that may also deal huge challenge on EVERY MISSION, is something that should be avoided. But here we are, and I already lost a potential friend to play with due to Emissary. We should be able to opt out of nightwave and ignore it if we want to.