Have DE designed themselves into a corner?

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not bashing anyone's whose playstyles fall within this thread's critiques. These are just my two cents.

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It appears that Digital Extremes is digital-extremely trapped in a meta of their own design.

Warframe, a game of which the "space ninja" aesthetic has essentially died, has become a game where the most popular forms of gameplay consist of either.

1. Killing as much enemies as possible as efficiently as you can or

2. Controlling crowds of enemies so that 1. can be achieved in a much easier fashion.

This type of gameplay leaves no room for thought, for challenge, or for tactical gameplay. It's just pointing and shooting huge explosive weapons and pressing "instant-delete-enemy" buttons.

It's kind of a shame, because on one hand, I enjoy what can be done with the current things we're able to utilize to suit us best, but at the same time, it's a little bit worrying development-wise.

 

Like, think about it. You conceptualize and design a whole subset of enemies, with each enemy having a different look, different weapon, and even different abilities or means of attacking the players. 

And then you ship them into the game, and the players just blast through them with no regard to how "unique" they are compared to regular troops, because there's nothing "unique" about an enemy, no matter what their abilities are, that can die and be forgotten just as easily as other basic enemies.

I just wonder what it must be like... knowing that you can no longer design any semblance of balance without:

a. Buffing the enemies which, when you look at how much damage players can do and how much damage from enemies players can tank, won't really do much

b. Redesign some of the enemies so that they impede the player's immense powers for a little bit (Nullifiers, I believe, would supposed to be something like this but even then, the players got mods to help destroy nullifying bubbles instantly)

c. Nerf the power of the players, which would be horrendous solely due to the amount of backlash this would cause

 

I'm honestly surprised more people don't get bored of this constant bulldozing of enemies, of which there is little substance as to why we're doing it (in-game). I feel like DE might be able to strike some kind of balance with strategy and powermongering, but until then, people from both sides will just have to keep arguing over what direction this game should take.

Edited May 18, 2020 by (PS4)LeBlingKing

[anarchy753]

I'm going more with what the consensus in the video seemed to be; game's probably not going to be "challenging" and most of the people looking for that have exhausted all other content in their multiple thousands of hours. It's more about accepting that than deciding it's a fault that a game can't be infinitely rewarding.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Just now, anarchy753 said:

I'm going more with what the consensus in the video seemed to be; game's probably not going to be "challenging" and most of the people looking for that have exhausted all other content in their multiple thousands of hours. It's more about accepting that than deciding it's a fault that a game can't be infinitely rewarding.

It just seems that now, more than ever, Warframe is moving away from its roots to become something that tries to satisfy every possible playstyle. I mean, we went from basic corridors and mission-based gameplay to endless dungeons, bosses, open worlds, spaceships, etc. However, even with all of those gamemodes being added, one thing that keeps drawing controversy is the gameplay itself.

I can't think of any way that people who have poured thousands of hours into the game looking for challenge can just easily "accept" that the difficulty of this game has shifted, seemingly irreversibly, myself included.

[Marine027]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb anarchy753:

It's more about accepting that than deciding it's a fault that a game can't be infinitely rewarding.

This so much, people expect a online game to run forever overall also it seems, why i prefer good old singleplayer games really, something i can be done with, those online games sort of turn into work after a long time, fear of missing out, lacking behind or loosing evne online friends due it, all things that such games sadly can cause.

Don't get me wrong i like alot of online games but people seem lately so fixated to play onyl the same games over and over and scream for content forgetting so many options exist to play even if its not the same type of game.

I myself sadly have to admit that it is hard for me to get into new or even old games and keep coming back for some rounds Warframe or other games i am stuck to. But that is the difference i guess, i play only some rounds or to relax, not to make it my second job.

One thing i need to say is tho things like Nightwave or timed events, etc. Those can make you feel you miss out, since you never know when it will return, even worse in my eyes since lore is attached ot it aswell and not just lets say a easter or xmas event.

DE designing certain things ot keep you play, which of course is part of any online game, i say is to blame but also the community which not is able to let go, which both sides are responsible in some way but also hard to get out that spiral really.

[rawr1254]

Personally I started losing interest around when we went from keys to relics. I know getting to pick your loot is nice but nowadays people dont push their limits when doing most missions. It's a lot of go to 5 minutes/waves then leave and go again so enemies stay under level 10... 

And then we took away trials, which I didnt start getting into until like a year before they went away. And it was good. I miss the 8 man squads and the puzzles in which you actually WORK AS A TEAM and not a 1 man army. I mean this is what I feel has really been lost which is the if I bring this itll help you not die or if I bring this you wont worry about this. Now it's just Ill bring this and if I die cause Im a glass cannon and if you dont get me up when I die in the first 5 minutes Ima be mad *frustrated grunt*. We need to bring back the gameplay that gave reason to bring specific frames to make it so the team can succeed instead of being a team of Leeroy Jenkins.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by rawr1254

[Rawbeard]

you seem to have the wrong idea about space ninjas. or ninjas.

[Nichivo]

Fortuna's Orb Vallis had challenge, people whined so it got nerfed. Railjack was supposed to be group oriented, it was pretty well balanced for a solo challenge (needed tougher mobs in the veil), but people whined, and it got nerfed so hard you can't even call it group content.

Arbitrations had challenge then revives were added. I play them solo only so I get the original feel.

Nope!  I am going to disagree on the basis that any content that presents challenge, gets nerfed into the ground because of people whining. Just look at all the moaning about the glassmaker puzzle, and the resource neither of which are difficult, or hard to obtain, or complete, yet people are whining.

[Tokens210]

24 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

And then we took away trials, which I didnt start getting into until like a year before they went away. And it was good. I miss the 8 man squads and the puzzles in which you actually WORK AS A TEAM and not a 1 man army. I mean this is what I feel has really been lost which is the if I bring this itll help you not die or if I bring this you wont worry about this. Now it's just Ill bring this and if I die cause Im a glass cannon and if you dont get me up when I die in the first 5 minutes Ima be mad *frustrated grunt*. We need to bring back the gameplay that gave reason to bring specific frames to make it so the team can succeed instead of being a team of Leeroy Jenkins.

 

you ever tried a trial with a public group or just some random ppl you have never played with before, it was always a mess, i was around backkthen often and dont remember a single one or anything about them cause i was barely able to play them, i almost always play the game solo (unless running endless types then public) which ment even tho i was playing back then i was actually never able to complete one, till i came across someone that could solo one and showed me how to complete it

 

as far as requiring specific frames for specific missions that would never work out, it translates to a direct pay wall to any new players, as they would then need slots for the frames in order for them to be counted as a viable player to others and eventually would come to my experience very early on in the games history when i played as volt and ppl would always quit missions leaving me alone, or the first clan i was in that booted me once they found out volt and volt prime were my only characters at that time, one of the reasons i just started playing everything solo

Edited May 18, 2020 by Tokens210

[Tokens210]

1 minute ago, Nichivo said:

Fortuna's Orb Vallis had challenge, people whined so it got nerfed. Railjack was supposed to be group oriented, it was pretty well balanced for a solo challenge (needed tougher mobs in the veil), but people whined, and it got nerfed so hard you can't even call it group content.

Arbitrations had challenge then revives were added. I play them solo only so I get the original feel.

Nope!  I am going to disagree on the basis that any content that presents challenge, gets nerfed into the ground because of people whining. Just look at all the moaning about the glassmaker puzzle, and the resource neither of which are difficult, or hard to obtain, or complete, yet people are whining.

my only issue with the glassmaker puzzle is its color choices, on my 4k hdr tv, its way to bright and white, i cant see a thing, settings didnt help it, i actually needed to buy a new ui color to fix it

besides that the resonance is actually fairly easy to get, atleast i found it to be

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

35 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

you seem to have the wrong idea about space ninjas. or ninjas.

We haven't been "ninjas" for some time. More like terminators in space. Lol

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)YoungGunn82

[darkbrick]

il y a 41 minutes, Rawbeard a dit :

you seem to have the wrong idea about space ninjas. or ninjas.

how about grendel? fat ninja?

[Tokens210]

2 minutes ago, darkbrick said:

how about grendel? fat ninja?

just gonna hit Grendel with the fatness

ive seen another fat ninja, and he was great lol

Spoiler

 

[rawr1254]

1 hour ago, Tokens210 said:

you ever tried a trial with a public group or just some random ppl you have never played with before, it was always a mess, i was around backkthen often and dont remember a single one or anything about them cause i was barely able to play them, i almost always play the game solo (unless running endless types then public) which ment even tho i was playing back then i was actually never able to complete one, till i came across someone that could solo one and showed me how to complete it

 

as far as requiring specific frames for specific missions that would never work out, it translates to a direct pay wall to any new players, as they would then need slots for the frames in order for them to be counted as a viable player to others and eventually would come to my experience very early on in the games history when i played as volt and ppl would always quit missions leaving me alone, or the first clan i was in that booted me once they found out volt and volt prime were my only characters at that time, one of the reasons i just started playing everything solo

Regardless of if a pub of trials was a mess it was just straight up scrapped instead of being made into a generally functional mode. And now with the huge diversity of frames abilities between DR and heals and invulnerabilities that  specific frame wouldnt be as sparse. I mean you'd still need that particular role but it'd have a few extra choices other than a Trinity a Nekros and a Slova. So it's not necessarily a paywall especially since everything in the game it free. Even then it wasn't a paywall. It was an Im a new player and need to build up my frame roster. That is a key part of the game not a wall. And even moreso of it not being a paywall you could farm for prime parts and sell them for plat easily and then buy the slot anyway which is again not out of pocket money.

I didnt start paying  for primes until after relics existed(1 cause I didnt have a job back then and 2 because relics feel too much of a pain to do honestly). Prior to that I never ever paid for a darn thing in the game and I still had everything up to current date in the game at least warframe-wise. So calling anything at all in this game a paywall in the first place is laughable.

Edited May 18, 2020 by rawr1254

[hungryghost84]

actually all of us are 'space one-punch mans' where we are ridiculously overpowered to the point where nothing poses a threat anymore. I really really really wish DE would just buff specific enemy types to make us stop and think first "how are we to overcome this adversary", rather than just blast our way through with a bramma. Nullys are not the answer but some enemies (not all) need to be either A. smarter, B. tougher, C. hit us WAYYY harder.

What they could do is maybe start with the multitude of bosses they have in the game and make them ACTUAL bosses where we certainly need a squad to kill them. Solo is doable, just needs timing skill and some form of power that must be obtained first

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

I thought being a space ninja was all about killing everything in sight?

Edited May 18, 2020 by (NSW)JJA209

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

6 hours ago, Marine027 said:

This so much, people expect a online game to run forever overall also it seems, why i prefer good old singleplayer games really, something i can be done with, those online games sort of turn into work after a long time, fear of missing out, lacking behind or loosing evne online friends due it, all things that such games sadly can cause.

Don't get me wrong i like alot of online games but people seem lately so fixated to play onyl the same games over and over and scream for content forgetting so many options exist to play even if its not the same type of game.

I myself sadly have to admit that it is hard for me to get into new or even old games and keep coming back for some rounds Warframe or other games i am stuck to. But that is the difference i guess, i play only some rounds or to relax, not to make it my second job.

One thing i need to say is tho things like Nightwave or timed events, etc. Those can make you feel you miss out, since you never know when it will return, even worse in my eyes since lore is attached ot it aswell and not just lets say a easter or xmas event.

DE designing certain things ot keep you play, which of course is part of any online game, i say is to blame but also the community which not is able to let go, which both sides are responsible in some way but also hard to get out that spiral really.

This, good post and I share ur sentiment about struggling to get into new games, it's either really old games that have played multiple times but still love it Warframe which I have been playing fairly consistently for 5 years and still enjoy

That's not to say I wont eventually get bored of WF but that wouldn't be the fault of the devs if that were the case, I would say playing a game for 5 years has proven that the devs have done a good job for my particular tastes in gaming.

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)ALTBOULI

[Chicken-Biryani]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

This type of gameplay leaves no room for thought, for challenge, or for tactical gameplay.

Oh! So you mean there is actual thought, strategy and higher order mathematics involved in warframe gameplay? Or maybe you are just riding a high horse thinking your own variation of playstyle is better over those you so conveniently defined in here. 

6 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

I'm honestly surprised more people don't get bored of this constant bulldozing of enemies

"More people" play the game to have fun. They are not trying to solve crossword puzzles or anything requiring special thought and calculation. For instance I tried different Mirage builds today, and for past few weeks I have been having fun with Mag Prime and various guns with her. A couple days later, someone might share their Banshee build and I would be running Hydron, different fissures, nightmare missions, syndicate missions, and invasions with Banshee for the next few weeks after that. All of this is very engaging in my own little corner of the world. 

It's okay for you to find all this boring. The same way it's okay for me to enjoy this brain-dead game in all the different ways that I can come up with. 

6 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

people from both sides will just have to keep arguing over what direction this game should take.

That's what people do. It has it's positives and negatives. Why do you wanna stop such interactions? They are an integral part of the Tenno world, you know! 

🙂

Peace and love! 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Nehra96

[(PSN)robotwars7]

7 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

I'm honestly surprised more people don't get bored of this constant bulldozing of enemies,

I'm not, sometimes you just have to switch off and massacre a platoon of evil clones, you know?

DE haven't tried everything yet though: I'm curious as to if giving warframe powers diminishing returns when constantly used on the same enemy over and over without pause would be the way to go: e.g. Mesa's peacemaker would start doing less damage to that enemy specifically, but if the Mesa stops and uses a regular weapon or melee etc for a little while, they can eventually go back to using peacemaker and it will deal full damage: something like this encourages players to actively switch up their tactics rather than just spam one attack.

these units could be added as elites that only appear in the new "hard mode", so it wouldn't impact the new player experience or be forced on those who like the game as is. they could appear only if alarms are triggered, to encourage stealth gameplay in modes where it isn't normally employed, like Sabotage. otherwise, prepare to be ambushed by these units at any point. 

if implemented properly - that's the hard part - I reckon this could do a lot to alleviate the problems warframe currently has with players facerolling everything, at least for those who actively want a challenge and aren't just here to "kill and chill".

[-skimmer-]

7 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

Personally I started losing interest around when we went from keys to relics. I know getting to pick your loot is nice but nowadays people dont push their limits when doing most missions. It's a lot of go to 5 minutes/waves then leave and go again so enemies stay under level 10... 

And then we took away trials, which I didnt start getting into until like a year before they went away. And it was good. I miss the 8 man squads and the puzzles in which you actually WORK AS A TEAM and not a 1 man army. I mean this is what I feel has really been lost which is the if I bring this itll help you not die or if I bring this you wont worry about this. Now it's just Ill bring this and if I die cause Im a glass cannon and if you dont get me up when I die in the first 5 minutes Ima be mad *frustrated grunt*. We need to bring back the gameplay that gave reason to bring specific frames to make it so the team can succeed instead of being a team of Leeroy Jenkins.

 

This.

Also Sanctuary Onslaught which was originaly meant to encourage pushing forward but then they made rewards rotate back to A after 8 wave. People are encourared to leave, so they do. When some people leave, everybody leaves.

Edited May 18, 2020 by -skimmer-

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

DE hasn't "designed" themselves into a corner...

[phoenix1992]

Hindsight is always 20/20, a lot of things just pilled up over time.

I mean sure, you can make a point that a lot of things were flat out pointed as issues from the start, but that doesn't' matter now. 

[MetalGrayFox]

Good post, I agree that we were pushed a couple of ways to play the game, and we lapped it up in the past!! That is until we got older and realised once you've beaten the ridiculous RNG for the items you want, there is not much left gameplay wise to keep you coming back just to play for a good time. Nuking the map gets stale after the nth time. 

Although not sure if it was intentional design or unintentional, I agree that it does seem a little backed up now and probably why new frames and enemies just don't have that level of "Can't wait" they once had. Instead we get shown an older version of ourselves in game in a black and white world, and now sit impatiently for a couple years to progress the story a bit more.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

DE has many options....it's doing them so the players do not crymoan about them that is the trick they have to do. 

For instance....we all know that DE showed a type of enemy that we had to hit the weak spots before we could finish them off...the players went bat shat crazy over such an addition....and then DE put it in anyways as Glassmaker Resonance. And then they gave another aspect to the glass to make players complain about the Resonance shards needed for the puzzle. Smart in DE side to use what they wanted and the players not cry about it.

DE can do this with many types of enemies and problems for the gamers to figure out....they just have to disguise it and give the players something else to crymoan about at the same time. It's like giving babies medicine by putting it in something good. 

Relax ....they got this. They been making games for decades. 

It's the new batch of players that they gotta contend with

[Aldain]

In some aspects yes.

Mostly in the difficulty of stopping the comical outliers by stopping EVERYTHING that comes with those outliers (Viral means status immunity is needed, Ability Immunity because of things like Mesa etc.)

They also have to accommodate for the outliers otherwise anything new launches trivialized which only serves to push the non-outliers further down.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

It certainly is a mess at the moment. They've been juggling far too much without taking a step back and really measuring the pros & cons of these big decisions. It can honestly get stale when the loop relies on layers of busywork & an overabundance of repetition. They've really strayed from the premise of space ninjas. We're more akin to farmers. Farmers with starfighters, various weapons that go against the laws established by the Geneva Convention & literal walking bio-weapons. Long gone is the subtle approach of stealthy infiltration & execution, dakka dakka & tactical nukes are just an everyday occurrence.