Instead of nerfing our powers, how about making missions in hard mode harder instead?

[844448]

Since balancing the game is pretty much a big task to work with, why don't we add more condition on hard mode missions so it's harder than normal star chart mission?

Some that I've thought so far

1. Rescue

- Triggering alarm means putting enemies on high alert, making it similar to sortie where opening the door starts the execution timer

- Hostage doesn't teleport in hard mode, means you can't leave the responsibility and you have to escort the hostage all the way to extraction to complete the mission

--> I'll compromise by making them teleport to the end of the room if they're stuck or 50 meters from you once every 30 seconds just in case the A.I. getting drunk and stuck

- Ultra hard mode : Adds an extra objective where the hostage will do something and you have to protect the hostage doing their thing before escorting them to extraction

2. Capture

- Shorter route to escape zone

- Ultra hard mode : Even shorter route, you have to escort the VIP to the rescue zone and reroute the destination before extracting because they're too wounded to capture normally

Note : Hack the zone first because if the VIP reaches the zone before it's hacked, they will activate the escape, failing the mission

3. Excavation

- Dropped power cells are now unstable, requiring you to keep it stable by charging it using your energy until it reaches 100%. A dropped power cell is at 50% stability and requires 1 energy per 1%

- Running and bullet jumping will degrade the power cell by 0.5% per second, means you have to carry it carefully

(A situation from old LoR to bring you raiders some nostalgia)

- Power cells will explode if left unattended for 5 seconds, means no power cell left littering the place

- Ultra hard : Stability is at 10%, drains 2 energy per % and degradation is at 1% per second and explode if left for 3 seconds

--> One time charge to fill the excavator to full to avoid slowing down the mission too much

4. Defense

- At random wave, a demolyst may come and blow up near the objective, draining 25% health

- Ultra hard : demolyst now drains 50% health

Keep your eyes and ears on the warning about a demolyst coming yeah?

5. Mobile defense

- Similar to defense

- Now added power source where enemies can turn off, making the Lotus goes Hoxton's "For f*ck's sake, lads. The power" of her version

6. Exterminate

- Sensors will trigger alarm, where avoiding triggering them is a good thing

- All security systems will activate, making it more dangerous to run around when alarm is on (Only for Corpus currently, sadly) until you turn off the alarm and stay away from enemies for 30 seconds cool down period

- While alarm is active, grineer mission will have G3 spawn and Nigthwatch units arriving as reinforcement

- Ultra hard : Alarm on means all units will become eximus

7. Sabotage

- Guaranteed of having extraction timer

- Ultra hard : 3 minutes timer so better be fast

8. Interception

- Enemies may lock the control, making you unable to take over until you hack it

- Ultra hard : Halved time (Corpus), less missclick (Grineer)

9. Spy

- Triggering alarm will activate more security measures and eventually fix any kind of flaw that can be used as alternative routes on top of activating all security measures in the tileset

- Ultra hard : Vaults have 90 seconds timer once the door is opened, triggering data deletion when players take too long to retrieve the data

10. Survival

- Unpicked life support from killed enemies will expire in 30 seconds, means you can't just kill enemies and grab life support when it's low

- Staying in a small room (dead end) for more than 5 minutes will make enemies pump poison gas into that room, dealing toxin damage over time if you stay and the damage will ramp up over time

- Ultra hard : expiry time reduced to 15 seconds, gas pumping will happen in 2 minutes if you camp

11. Hijack

- Grineer : Able to disconnect rails or stop the cart on a section, halting the progress on that area until you hack and regain control

- Corpus : Focuses fire on their rover, able to deploy tower to stop the rover by overriding the system to make it stop and start reversing. Destroy the tower to regain control

More to be added

Opinions? Worth suggesting to DE?

[Yagamilight123]

If you dont nerf abilities its imposible to do something hard ... you have frames with absolute CC and Defense capabilities that make enemies TOTALLY useless against a target . And you have frames with invul or near invul abilities making enemies irrelevant to them (you go to an extermination mision using your argument ... all enemies can be eximus lvl 200 and they are not even going to do a "dent" to Inaros for example  .

[Drachnyn]

A lot more interesting that just bumping up levels, although i've never been a fan of escort quests in any game so your proposed rescue changes to the target not teleporting anymore dont excite me to put it lightly. I do like the finish the rescue target's original objective idea though. Excavation might also become tedious if the game doesnt spawn cell carriers fast enough, IMO it shouldnt lead to excavator idle time. I'd rather have it changed then to one big power cell that you have to charge up but then the excavator is fully charged.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I've nothing against the ideas, some of them are good.  However, bear in mind the amount of salt there has been on these forums from people complaining the new nw puzzle is way too hard and are ready to quit the game because of it.  

Any form of difficulty gets nerfed because of cry babies, always has, always will.

I support you for taking the time to put forward suggestions and hope de will add some difficulty beyond a bump in levels.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Honestly, I'm more of a power fantasy player. I still like challenge, nonetheless.

To that end if we're focusing on bringing actual challenge to the game just making enemies stronger isn't nearly enough. Making missions harder doesn't help either, honestly. 

Since DE has to cater to both crowds then they must add both stronger enemies in stronger levels, with unique modifiers and all sorts of "challenging" measures, while at the same time limiting the player himself. And without sacrificing the power fantasy portion of the game. You can't have one without the others, or without sacrificing a part someone liked.

In order to create challenge, and making sure that challenge is offered mainly to those seeking it, you must create a good foundation. That foundation is made both of harder content and limits to the power fantasy itself on the player side.

Challenge is challenge, Power Fantasy is Power Fantasy, and we can´t have a hard mission that still gets cheesed out because the player had some crazy gimmicks and lots of meta gear.

Just my humble thoughts on the matter, as a player who likes it both ways at different times. I do like some of these suggestions and I hope they get implemented. I'm a fan of surprises and unique modifiers, as well as having to adapt to the circumstances the game randomly throws at me.

[Kaotyke]

34 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Hoxton's "For f*ck's sake, lads. The power" of her version

You made me reinstall Payday 2.

[SneakyErvin]

Some of the ideas are good but some of them come down to the same solution as health sponges i.e time sinks and not an actual challenge.

Those I'd give a plus are.

Rescue

First idea of Capture along with the even shorter route for ultra hard.

Exterminate, but not the manic part. Those mobs add no difficulty, just more time sink due to their extremely boring behavior. I'd suggest squads of Nox, Ghouls, possibly reskinned G3 members turned into normal mobs or one of the several types of the arena mobs, or maybe a reskinned Wolf, preferably a mix of all.

Defense, big yes, make it 50% and 75% imo. More than one demo per wave would be great too.

Sabotage.

Interception seems good if them hacking the console requires them to take it over first. Also, shorter time for corpus is fine, but the grineer puzzle would be better if it allows fewer missclicks than speed. Speed is a massive benefit for some of us while it is a massive hindrance to others. There is a reason I dont use the parazon mod that gives extra hack time, since it slows down the grineer wheel which I just cant live with. I'd be in paradise with an even faster wheel.

Then I have a question about excav. The need to charge it up, will it be a one cost instant power up when we inject it into the excav or will we need to run around and have it go from 50% to 100% over time? If it is option one I can get behind it, if it is option two I'd have to give it a big no due to just being another time sink. Not a fan of the 5 sec expiration timer either given that excav promotes spreading out for efficiency and the spawn rate of canisters in some tiles is already horribly low. More time sinks for no good reason at all.

[Marine027]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Hyperion Rexx:

I've nothing against the ideas, some of them are good.  However, bear in mind the amount of salt there has been on these forums from people complaining the new nw puzzle is way too hard and are ready to quit the game because of it.  

Any form of difficulty gets nerfed because of cry babies, always has, always will.

I support you for taking the time to put forward suggestions and hope de will add some difficulty beyond a bump in levels.

You confuse difficulty with bad design here tho, people complain about the timer being confuisng and unnecesary since you can't read and listen to the lore that way, the puzzle is not difficult it is playing memory nothing more.

Stop comparing those kind of things, a puzzle is something else in desing then misison game modes with battle.

On the topic itself, i love ot have more mechanics rather then just hit harder with bigger damage.

[Urlan]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Some of the ideas are good but some of them come down to the same solution as health sponges i.e time sinks and not an actual challenge.

Those I'd give a plus are.

Rescue

First idea of Capture along with the even shorter route for ultra hard.

Exterminate, but not the manic part. Those mobs add no difficulty, just more time sink due to their extremely boring behavior. I'd suggest squads of Nox, Ghouls, possibly reskinned G3 members turned into normal mobs or one of the several types of the arena mobs, or maybe a reskinned Wolf, preferably a mix of all.

Defense, big yes, make it 50% and 75% imo. More than one demo per wave would be great too.

Sabotage.

Interception seems good if them hacking the console requires them to take it over first. Also, shorter time for corpus is fine, but the grineer puzzle would be better if it allows fewer missclicks than speed. Speed is a massive benefit for some of us while it is a massive hindrance to others. There is a reason I dont use the parazon mod that gives extra hack time, since it slows down the grineer wheel which I just cant live with. I'd be in paradise with an even faster wheel.

Then I have a question about excav. The need to charge it up, will it be a one cost instant power up when we inject it into the excav or will we need to run around and have it go from 50% to 100% over time? If it is option one I can get behind it, if it is option two I'd have to give it a big no due to just being another time sink. Not a fan of the 5 sec expiration timer either given that excav promotes spreading out for efficiency and the spawn rate of canisters in some tiles is already horribly low. More time sinks for no good reason at all.

Or oh, for capture, remember how we used to randomly have multiple capture targets per run? Have the harder ones have more capture targets that alarms alert the rest and allow them to muck with the lockdowns, security, and mini-bosses if desired.

Rescue could take from the tac alert rescues, or Maroo's one where we had Nightwatch or some additional faction attack with the ability to down and capture the target VIP, or just multiple rescue targets and they must walk to the extraction to succeed.

Endless could have a secondary objective added to it, either mini-bosses; panels that one must hack to stop a self destruct or deadly security against Tenno over the map; or slowly raising elemental hazards that can be disabled or slowed down.

[George_PPS]

56 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Since balancing the game is pretty much a big task to work with, why don't we add more condition on hard mode missions so it's harder than normal star chart mission?

Some that I've thought so far

1. Rescue

- Triggering alarm means putting enemies on high alert, making it similar to sortie where opening the door starts the execution timer

- Hostage doesn't teleport in hard mode, means you can't leave the responsibility and you have to escort the hostage all the way to extraction to complete the mission

--> I'll compromise by making them teleport to the end of the room if they're stuck or 50 meters from you once every 30 seconds just in case the A.I. getting drunk and stuck

- Ultra hard mode : Adds an extra objective where the hostage will do something and you have to protect the hostage doing their thing before escorting them to extraction

2. Capture

- Shorter route to escape zone

- Ultra hard mode : Even shorter route, you have to escort the VIP to the rescue zone and reroute the destination before extracting because they're too wounded to capture normally

Note : Hack the zone first because if the VIP reaches the zone before it's hacked, they will activate the escape, failing the mission

3. Excavation

- Dropped power cells are now unstable, requiring you to keep it stable by charging it using your energy until it reaches 100%. A dropped power cell is at 50% stability and requires 1 energy per 1%

- Running and bullet jumping will degrade the power cell by 0.5% per second, means you have to carry it carefully

(A situation from old LoR to bring you raiders some nostalgia)

- Power cells will explode if left unattended for 5 seconds, means no power cell left littering the place

- Ultra hard : Stability is at 10%, drains 2 energy per % and degradation is at 1% per second and explode if left for 3 seconds

4. Defense

- At random wave, a demolyst may come and blow up near the objective, draining 25% health

- Ultra hard : demolyst now drains 50% health

Keep your eyes and ears on the warning about a demolyst coming yeah?

5. Mobile defense

- Similar to defense

- Now added power source where enemies can turn off, making the Lotus goes Hoxton's "For f*ck's sake, lads. The power" of her version

6. Exterminate

- Sensors will trigger alarm, where avoiding triggering them is a good thing

- All security systems will activate, making it more dangerous to run around when alarm is on (Only for Corpus currently, sadly)

- While alarm is active, grineer mission will have a constant swarm or manics

- Ultra hard : Alarm on means all units will become eximus

7. Sabotage

- Guaranteed of having extraction timer

- Ultra hard : 3 minutes timer so better be fast

8. Interception

- Enemies may lock the control, making you unable to take over until you hack it

- Ultra hard : Halved time (Corpus), faster spin (Grineer)

More to be added

Opinions? Worth suggesting to DE?

This is exactly what most players are looking for when they say they need more challenging. NOT NERFING! Most nerfs make players very angry because it simply invalidates our efforts to make our loadouts perform at the best possible levels that then later become useless. That DE nerfing our gears and call it a day for "balancing" is extremely lazy and damaging to the player base. 

[R.E.A.P.E.R.35]

Quite like the sound of these ideas.  Perhaps there'd be certain parts that need tweaking in order to function effectively (looking at that hostage-teleport one the most, though your proposed solution is rather good).  Certainly worth proposing the idea of, as it would add much more spice to missions than a simple level-bump.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Or oh, for capture, remember how we used to randomly have multiple capture targets per run? Have the harder ones have more capture targets that alarms alert the rest and allow them to muck with the lockdowns, security, and mini-bosses if desired.

Rescue could take from the tac alert rescues, or Maroo's one where we had Nightwatch or some additional faction attack with the ability to down and capture the target VIP, or just multiple rescue targets and they must walk to the extraction to succeed.

Endless could have a secondary objective added to it, either mini-bosses; panels that one must hack to stop a self destruct or deadly security against Tenno over the map; or slowly raising elemental hazards that can be disabled or slowed down.

All of that would be great!

[JohnKable]

"instead of nerfing our powers, how about making missions harder?"

The only possibilities to make missions harder are:
 have enemies immune to powers 
 have all mods disabled on your warframe
 have serious energy restraints (like in conclave, no zenurik dash, pizzas or other tricks)
 
So, sure, you can have harder missions and still keep your powers. But then the context changes and then your powers are less effective even if theoretically still do the same thing

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Oh yes let’s let rescue missions hinge on a near completely random occurrence.

[844448]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Already stopped reading after realizing that you think defending DE's terrible ai is fun and or challenging. (Your rescue suggestion) 

It's not.

There is a reason they teleport, nothing more nothing less. And defection is the pinnacle on why defending ai is monstrously tedious, hence, minority plays it.

And no, I'm not suggesting "just fix ai 4head", all I'm saying is don't make it worse.

 

18 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Oh yes let’s let rescue missions hinge on a near completely random occurrence.

If you guys have better idea, I welcome it

[(NSW)Reason]

I like a lot of these ideas and think this is how they should make the game harder rather than more health/shields on enemies. 

[Aldain]

Limbo uses Stasis to turn the A.I. off, Mesa Kills everything in a 12 mile radius, Equinox explodes the tileset through walls, Saryn melts everything with spores.

Nothing changes there, except the Demolysts, which admittedly are a good idea, but some of the defense tiles are a bit too small for them.

The ideas are good to shake the gameplay up, but all the good ideas in the world won't stop the outlying power of a handful of frames/weapons from deflating the entire challenge.

Adding ability counters also wind up making the Warframes that don't trivialize things worse/useless too, which would just leave us with an Inaros meta.

[844448]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Limbo uses Stasis to turn the A.I. off, Mesa Kills everything in a 12 mile radius, Equinox explodes the tileset through walls, Saryn melts everything with spores.

Nothing changes there, except the Demolysts, which admittedly are a good idea, but some of the defense tiles are a bit too small for them.

The ideas are good to shake the gameplay up, but all the good ideas in the world won't stop the outlying power of a handful of frames/weapons from deflating the entire challenge.

Adding ability counters also wind up making the Warframes that don't trivialize things worse/useless too, which would just leave us with an Inaros meta.

Since we can't really stop the outlying power, we punish the reckless play style so thinking you can get away with only bringing kuva bramma and whatever frame you think will make everything trivial will get you nowhere since playing recklessly brings you to a harder situation

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Since we can't really stop the outlying power

We can, people just don't want to hear how.

Also what is a "reckless playstyle" anyway? That's a very vague concept.

[hendrix923]

I’ve got 3.5k hours into WF. I’m ready for some big changes. I’m just worried they will continue to ground the game when we need more exciting interesting mechanics. So sure make changes but think about the game play and make it better along the way.  If A.I. improves, my character/weapons gets a nerf BUT my speed and mobility is increased (pre melee 2.99 movement speed and range) along with some of my abilities (like Frosts 1 would slow a whole group), that may be a welcome change.  Another part of this equation is Rivens and I hope they rework that whole system. 

[844448]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

We can, people just don't want to hear how.

Also what is a "reckless playstyle" anyway? That's a very vague concept.

Most of the time people don't care with alarm on since there's hardly any consequence other than enemies being alerted so why don't we make some consequences from that like what I put in my post

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

Most of the time people don't care with alarm on since there's hardly any consequence other than enemies being alerted so why don't we make some consequences from that like what I put in my post

What about the missions where alarms aren't a thing?

Also regarding that Excavation thing where you need to transport cells carefully, wouldn't Limbo just be able to roll into the void and slow walk into his Cataclysm to avoid the whole mechanic?

Also putting in anti-Limbo mechanics are technically Limbo nerfs just for the record.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Any form of difficulty gets nerfed because of cry babies, always has, always will.

Isn't that the truth.

Regarding OP, I'm all for changing up the mission flow a bit, hell do it on normal missions they could use the variety.  

But we need to be nerfed, and I'm full support of it.  

[Watsof]

Those excavation suggestions sound very intriguing to me, would love to see them have a test run on the Cluster.

I've come to the conclusion that captures are a "dummy" mission type, only useful for speedrunning relics. Unless we all agree to radically change how they function, there's no way of rendering them interesting with only minor adjustments.  

[Yakhul]

I like the ideas @844448suggested. But I didn't saw my favorite game mode: spy

How about this:

Hard mode: same as sortie, you need to unlock all vaults to complete the mission, but you will be limited on your choice of weapons: only silent weapons like bows can be used (except stuff like the bramma or lenz) you will have a timer to unlock each vault, starting from the time you open the vault door.

Ultra hard: stealth abilities will not be allowed. Only use silent weapons. Alarming the enemy will result in immediately failing the mission. You have limited time to complete the mission. This should prove a challenge to see how good of a ninja you are.