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844448

Instead of nerfing our powers, how about making missions in hard mode harder instead?

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Those excavation suggestions sound very intriguing to me, would love to see them have a test run on the Cluster.

I've come to the conclusion that captures are a "dummy" mission type, only useful for speedrunning relics. Unless we all agree to radically change how they function, there's no way of rendering them interesting with only minor adjustments.  

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I like the ideas @844448suggested. But I didn't saw my favorite game mode: spy

How about this:

Hard mode: same as sortie, you need to unlock all vaults to complete the mission, but you will be limited on your choice of weapons: only silent weapons like bows can be used (except stuff like the bramma or lenz) you will have a timer to unlock each vault, starting from the time you open the vault door.

Ultra hard: stealth abilities will not be allowed. Only use silent weapons. Alarming the enemy will result in immediately failing the mission. You have limited time to complete the mission. This should prove a challenge to see how good of a ninja you are.

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4 hours ago, 844448 said:

Since balancing the game is pretty much a big task to work with, why don't we add more condition on hard mode missions so it's harder than normal star chart mission?

Some that I've thought so far

Spoiler

 

1. Rescue

- Triggering alarm means putting enemies on high alert, making it similar to sortie where opening the door starts the execution timer

- Hostage doesn't teleport in hard mode, means you can't leave the responsibility and you have to escort the hostage all the way to extraction to complete the mission

--> I'll compromise by making them teleport to the end of the room if they're stuck or 50 meters from you once every 30 seconds just in case the A.I. getting drunk and stuck

- Ultra hard mode : Adds an extra objective where the hostage will do something and you have to protect the hostage doing their thing before escorting them to extraction

2. Capture

- Shorter route to escape zone

- Ultra hard mode : Even shorter route, you have to escort the VIP to the rescue zone and reroute the destination before extracting because they're too wounded to capture normally

Note : Hack the zone first because if the VIP reaches the zone before it's hacked, they will activate the escape, failing the mission

3. Excavation

- Dropped power cells are now unstable, requiring you to keep it stable by charging it using your energy until it reaches 100%. A dropped power cell is at 50% stability and requires 1 energy per 1%

- Running and bullet jumping will degrade the power cell by 0.5% per second, means you have to carry it carefully

(A situation from old LoR to bring you raiders some nostalgia)

- Power cells will explode if left unattended for 5 seconds, means no power cell left littering the place

- Ultra hard : Stability is at 10%, drains 2 energy per % and degradation is at 1% per second and explode if left for 3 seconds

--> One time charge to fill the excavator to full to avoid slowing down the mission too much

4. Defense

- At random wave, a demolyst may come and blow up near the objective, draining 25% health

- Ultra hard : demolyst now drains 50% health

Keep your eyes and ears on the warning about a demolyst coming yeah?

5. Mobile defense

- Similar to defense

- Now added power source where enemies can turn off, making the Lotus goes Hoxton's "For f*ck's sake, lads. The power" of her version

6. Exterminate

- Sensors will trigger alarm, where avoiding triggering them is a good thing

- All security systems will activate, making it more dangerous to run around when alarm is on (Only for Corpus currently, sadly) until you turn off the alarm and stay away from enemies for 30 seconds cool down period

- While alarm is active, grineer mission will have G3 spawn and Nigthwatch units arriving as reinforcement

- Ultra hard : Alarm on means all units will become eximus

7. Sabotage

- Guaranteed of having extraction timer

- Ultra hard : 3 minutes timer so better be fast

8. Interception

- Enemies may lock the control, making you unable to take over until you hack it

- Ultra hard : Halved time (Corpus), less missclick (Grineer)

More to be added

Opinions? Worth suggesting to DE?

 

 

While some of the ideas are good, the issue with all of this lays at the feet of Warframes that all you need to do is push 4 to stop or stomp entire rooms. Equinox sleep, Slow Nova, Volt (modded correctly and with corpus), and Saryn with a high spore count as examples. In the recent Shy podcast Pablo talked about these exact things from a dev standpoint where they would have to nerf frames to truly create challenge with enemy mobs as many have great power and or great battle field control. No matter the condition players will always find a way to min/max and form a meta because at the end of the day it is the power that seems to draw the most. And that entails the issue of should cannon fodder mobs be rivaling Warframes in power ever. That said if we were to say as an example have a defense variant of Demolysts/Demolishers spawn in on hard/ultra lvl defense missions randomly to catch players off guard with random sortie debuffs like all of a sudden its melee only and have them have rare drops I think that would be an example of a good middle ground approach at the most basic level.

When people ask for challenge I really don't think that's what they are after. What my perception on the matter is they want content that is engaging that does not become boring too quickly and is fulfilling to their reason to play the game ergo story, power fantasy, hardcore survivalist, and collector/completionist etc etc. It is a daunting task for the dev team as Warframe is truly its own experience fractured as it is with "content islands" had Railjack had a better wide appeal on release from what was shown at Tennocon I do believe this debate would be going in another direction entirely but it is what it is and with the worlds current joy ride in crazy. 

Looking at the long term picture Id like them to get Hard/Ultra Hard into the game then do official call for ideas to have a unique Warframe only style of mythic+ type missions then have the the design council (I'm not a member btw) pick like 10-20 ideas that sound good and have the devs then pick 1-5 of them they could implement for the the mission types. Example ultra hard mode defection could have a chance for Sargus Ruk to pop in and say look this batch of Kavor were actually spies and laid a trap for the Tenno and they strapped bombs all over the place and set off an EMP mine knocking out the players radar starting a count down clock to get to a newly spawned archwing launch point to defeat Sargus Ruks lackys. Basically instead of modifying the enemies dynamically alter the mission parameters and success objectives. Just my two cents. 

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To OP: you might wanna post this on feedback after hard/ultra hard mode release, and use the feedback provided by other users here as well

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2 hours ago, Yakhul said:

I like the ideas @844448suggested. But I didn't saw my favorite game mode: spy

How about this:

Hard mode: same as sortie, you need to unlock all vaults to complete the mission, but you will be limited on your choice of weapons: only silent weapons like bows can be used (except stuff like the bramma or lenz) you will have a timer to unlock each vault, starting from the time you open the vault door.

Ultra hard: stealth abilities will not be allowed. Only use silent weapons. Alarming the enemy will result in immediately failing the mission. You have limited time to complete the mission. This should prove a challenge to see how good of a ninja you are.

Added, but not forcing stealth since it's just shoehorning play style

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1 hour ago, Magus_Tahir said:

While some of the ideas are good, the issue with all of this lays at the feet of Warframes that all you need to do is push 4 to stop or stomp entire rooms. Equinox sleep, Slow Nova, Volt (modded correctly and with corpus), and Saryn with a high spore count as examples. In the recent Shy podcast Pablo talked about these exact things from a dev standpoint where they would have to nerf frames to truly create challenge with enemy mobs as many have great power and or great battle field control. No matter the condition players will always find a way to min/max and form a meta because at the end of the day it is the power that seems to draw the most. And that entails the issue of should cannon fodder mobs be rivaling Warframes in power ever. That said if we were to say as an example have a defense variant of Demolysts/Demolishers spawn in on hard/ultra lvl defense missions randomly to catch players off guard with random sortie debuffs like all of a sudden its melee only and have them have rare drops I think that would be an example of a good middle ground approach at the most basic level.

Since we can't really nerf without having community backlash, we add more condition where it punishes reckless AoE spam by making the mission itself harder to finish if you only stand on one place spamming abilities

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Posted (edited)
Il y a 5 heures, 844448 a dit :

why don't we add more condition on hard mode missions so it's harder than normal star chart mission?

Just a simple question. Don't you think that it could turn warframe into something that some players might not like? This is far from what we have now.

Why can't this just be the nightmare modes of the new difficulty? They could add 2 or 3 more nightmare nodes per planet and still let players play warframe as they like even in harder difficulty.

Edited by HexOmega111x

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2 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Just a simple question. Don't you think that it could turn warframe into something that some players might not like? This is far from what we have now.

Why can't this just be the nightmare modes of the new difficulty? They could add 2 or 3 more nightmare nodes per planet and still let players play warframe as they like even in harder difficulty.

This is for the hard mode DE is working on, higher level enemy only won't make people suddenly stop asking difficulty and challenge

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Posted (edited)

Because meta and no-brainer frames exist. Because once someone finds an easy build/combination, content creators will spread the news and then everyone will use it, because there's this elitist efficiency mentality dictating that you should rush through the missions with less efforts as possible.

I thought whips and memeing strike made it obvious.

Edited by Thundervision
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il y a 1 minute, 844448 a dit :

This is for the hard mode DE is working on, higher level enemy only won't make people suddenly stop asking difficulty and challenge

Yes, I get that. My point is that higher enemy level is something that can be enough for players who don't want to have to deal with more mechanics. Not every one is asking for more complex missions.

Your ideas are cool but should or could be tied to a nightmare mode without altering the game. There are players who could want a different experience from day to day too. It should remain a choice. 

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7 minutes ago, Thundervision said:

Because meta and no-brainer frames exist. Because once someone finds an easy build/combination, content creators will spread the news and then everyone will use it, because there's this elitist efficiency mentality dictating that you should rush through the missions with less efforts as possible.

I thought whips and memeing strike made it obvious.

And complain that the mission is too short, too easy, etc? Well time for me to pull a "f*ck you 3000" to them by punishing no-brainer play style then

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Since we can't really nerf without having community backlash, we add more condition where it punishes reckless AoE spam by making the mission itself harder to finish if you only stand on one place spamming abilities

That is one way however as I see it that would simply infringe on the "Power Fantasy" and curtail the "Variety" aspects. We would just move to another room and start all over again in a rinse repeat while basically punishing players for using the full breadth of their chosen frames powers. We already have this in ESO which as an added point we just be the same thing in a different game mode. Which is why I suggested in my full post instead of focusing on the cannon fodder or the warframe powers to alter the environment or spawn random encounters that would immediately threaten the mission success or change the mission type Ill go over a theoretical example for a dynamic mission type that I have in my mind.

Mission Type Incursion: % Chance to occur during hard/ultra hard mode archwing (any mission really) each shift in mission type increases enemy level by an additional amount and applies a sortie debuff/condition (Ultra Hard x2).

Modes:

  • Defense > Mobile Defense > Archwing (Defense/Exterminate)
  • Defense > Archwing > Railjack (Any)
  • Archwing > Rescue/Mobile Defense > Defense (Open World if viable)

Ill use the third option listed and for the sake of hypotheticals will be on Earth. Starting out in archwing an incursion occurs could be Grineer or Corpus ship appears spawning a Tactical Alert to clear fighter defense and rescue a target on board the ship that entered the sector. All Tenno present board the ship and mission type shifts to Rescue/Mobile defense hybrid with a random Sortie debuff target is rescued mission shifts to 1, 2, or 3 mobile defense points the Rescue target must be moved to safely final mobile defense point being a escape pod. Enter the escape pod and launch landing in Plains of Eidolon prompting a final defense mission with a new random sortie debuff of a random number of waves until a detachment from Cetus could secure the target.

Anyway this is a very rough idea of what I am getting at with having a dynamic mission system pulling from already built assets and moving further to link content islands on the side. Granted for all the fun it would be I can also list all the pitfalls. My reasoning is simple instead of altering anything we have now, build and merge what we have now in new ways and add spice. New boss spawns like liches, new faction invasions forcing a team to split up if more than 1 Tenno is in the mission and the like. Hard nerfing frames and powers is out of the question, raising enemy level means nothing when a frame can push a button and render the enemy neutralized, punishing players for using their weapons and Warframes is also out of the question for the same reasons. Improving AI has the same issue as raising enemy level. It is of my opinion that we need dynamic multistage mission types utilizing all that Warframe has to offer currently combined with exponential level increases with randomized sortie debuffs and mini bosses to create semi unique randomized engaging experiences that test a players capacity to adapt to the given situation using their chosen tools. 

P.s. I can already see the people jumping to pitchforks and sharpening their torches over this entire theoretical idea. 

 

Edited by Magus_Tahir
Typo

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Guess you didn't see Pablo's remarks on Nuker's and room CC a problem. A creator of the game not player base like us. Even the creator see the problem why don't the player base see this also?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, JohnKable said:

"instead of nerfing our powers, how about making missions harder?"

The only possibilities to make missions harder are:
 have enemies immune to powers 
 have all mods disabled on your warframe
 have serious energy restraints (like in conclave, no zenurik dash, pizzas or other tricks)
 
So, sure, you can have harder missions and still keep your powers. But then the context changes and then your powers are less effective even if theoretically still do the same thing

Basically this.  What all challenge or lack there of in game really comes down to is how spammable our powers are.  The extreme reach of 360 aoes would be fine if we couldn't just reapply them the moment their effects faded away.  If we had to actually manage our resources instead of basically having infinite ammo, energy and health, our raw power could be justified because there would be limiters in place.  Instead, we have god mode activated, the AI turned off, and we don't have to let up off the left mouse button, and we're going "where's the challenge?"

Yeah, no clever idea to "make things harder" is really going to work long term.  You could turn off defense objective health regeneration and people would still find a way to go forever by denying the enemy a chance to ever harm the objective.  Can't even require proper line of sight for powers to work without people losing their minds.  These same people are asking for smarter AI by the way - like that's going to help when the most basic survival tactic in the AI's arsenal is 100% pointless.

What it boils down to is DE will have to put on their big boy shorts and risk alienating the people that really should be playing clicker heroes if they want to even start on the path of providing any "non-cheese" challenge to players.  Sponges aren't a challenge - Grab a frame that multiplies a META weapon's firepower ten-fold.  Problem solved, if not in the most exciting or even remotely enjoyable manner.  And really, that's kind of what Warframe is right now - it's a puzzler masked to look like a shooter.  Missions are won in the arsenal, not on the battlefield.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer

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7 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

  Missions are won in the arsenal, not on the battlefield.

To be fair, it's a matter of historical precedent that the most advanced equiped and informed combatant will win on the battlefield. Of course there are exceptions to the presumed rule see the battle of Isandlwana 1879.

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5 hours ago, Magus_Tahir said:

That is one way however as I see it that would simply infringe on the "Power Fantasy" and curtail the "Variety" aspects. We would just move to another room and start all over again in a rinse repeat while basically punishing players for using the full breadth of their chosen frames powers. We already have this in ESO which as an added point we just be the same thing in a different game mode. Which is why I suggested in my full post instead of focusing on the cannon fodder or the warframe powers to alter the environment or spawn random encounters that would immediately threaten the mission success or change the mission type Ill go over a theoretical example for a dynamic mission type that I have in my mind.

Mission Type Incursion: % Chance to occur during hard/ultra hard mode archwing (any mission really) each shift in mission type increases enemy level by an additional amount and applies a sortie debuff/condition (Ultra Hard x2).

Modes:

  • Defense > Mobile Defense > Archwing (Defense/Exterminate)
  • Defense > Archwing > Railjack (Any)
  • Archwing > Rescue/Mobile Defense > Defense (Open World if viable)

Ill use the third option listed and for the sake of hypotheticals will be on Earth. Starting out in archwing an incursion occurs could be Grineer or Corpus ship appears spawning a Tactical Alert to clear fighter defense and rescue a target on board the ship that entered the sector. All Tenno present board the ship and mission type shifts to Rescue/Mobile defense hybrid with a random Sortie debuff target is rescued mission shifts to 1, 2, or 3 mobile defense points the Rescue target must be moved to safely final mobile defense point being a escape pod. Enter the escape pod and launch landing in Plains of Eidolon prompting a final defense mission with a new random sortie debuff of a random number of waves until a detachment from Cetus could secure the target.

Anyway this is a very rough idea of what I am getting at with having a dynamic mission system pulling from already built assets and moving further to link content islands on the side. Granted for all the fun it would be I can also list all the pitfalls. My reasoning is simple instead of altering anything we have now, build and merge what we have now in new ways and add spice. New boss spawns like liches, new faction invasions forcing a team to split up if more than 1 Tenno is in the mission and the like. Hard nerfing frames and powers is out of the question, raising enemy level means nothing when a frame can push a button and render the enemy neutralized, punishing players for using their weapons and Warframes is also out of the question for the same reasons. Improving AI has the same issue as raising enemy level. It is of my opinion that we need dynamic multistage mission types utilizing all that Warframe has to offer currently combined with exponential level increases with randomized sortie debuffs and mini bosses to create semi unique randomized engaging experiences that test a players capacity to adapt to the given situation using their chosen tools. 

P.s. I can already see the people jumping to pitchforks and sharpening their torches over this entire theoretical idea. 

 

I think you misunderstood what I mean, what I'm trying to punish is the no-brainer play style where people are just spam AoE without care while rushing to objective. Most of the time alarm will be on because they just don't care if there's any survivor so I'm using this to make people watch their surroundings instead of spamming bullet jump, press 4 and repeat

And looking at your idea, it's still putting debuff and it also changes mission types which from what I understand you don't really want to use it because it threatens the mission success from the mission type incursion

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5 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Guess you didn't see Pablo's remarks on Nuker's and room CC a problem. A creator of the game not player base like us. Even the creator see the problem why don't the player base see this also?

I did see from this forum thread, but since setting up balance will take a long time, I make it so even with nuke and CC you still have to play the mission such as more dangerous mission when you're only spamming nuke and cc without watching the surroundings

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4 hours ago, 844448 said:

I think you misunderstood what I mean, what I'm trying to punish is the no-brainer play style where people are just spam AoE without care while rushing to objective. Most of the time alarm will be on because they just don't care if there's any survivor so I'm using this to make people watch their surroundings instead of spamming bullet jump, press 4 and repeat

And looking at your idea, it's still putting debuff and it also changes mission types which from what I understand you don't really want to use it because it threatens the mission success from the mission type incursion

No I understood, which is why I went into depth on a possibility to add to hard/ultra mode and allow player engagement without having to punish any one player for a play style or tactic by altering the field of play. My idea does the exact outcome you desire with a few minor caveats without having to punish a player enjoying their power fantasy. I do get what you're after, but that is not what star chart Warframe is anymore. Pandora's box is open, the genie is out of the lamp they can not reverse the last two years without major backlash from those that find the changes good. The middle path is to take the best of both worlds using assets in the game and make something new.

Also hard/ultra modes will be for players who want "challenge" that as of this prototype stage will not have rewards other than completion and cosmetics so having a % chance while doing these to spawn something that would be engaging.

Lastly and this is a point I really want to get across to you. Wanting to punish people for a chosen play style because you feel it is no-brainer is absurd, its tyrannical, and downright disrespectful. It invalidates any concept your bring forth as the source of your design is from a place to stop players having fun with the frames and mods they have earned in ways that suits them best because you don't like it. Think about that when someone comes for your prefered play style and calls it no-brainer. 

Cheers, and be well.

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How about a compromise.

Only nerfing 2 out of 4 abilities and 2 out of 3 weapons for a few minutes at a time so the team has to make due with what they have, changing the strategy as the game goes on.

Make it so that as a player on Ultra Hard mode you must prove that you know how to play outside your comfort zone. Instead of the same old game-mode but bigger numbers.

 

And of course there must be appropriate rewards FOR ACTIVE PLAYERS. Because every 2nd time I'm on Arbitration - there is that one player (usually the Excalibur) who is doing nothing, being a burden to the team and still reaping all the rewards off our hard work.

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On 2020-05-19 at 8:21 PM, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm outside currently, maybe later..

So, you have better idea or we're fine with being able to grab and carry the hostage by yourself to fix AI getting stuck as the solution?

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OP has good ideas. I see a lot of simping with the complaints that, "XXX-frame can do this".

That applies to vets who have access to those warframes and equipment.

They are the ones who forget how tedious it was to build all their gear so they can blow through any mission with great ease.

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Posted (edited)
vor 5 Stunden schrieb 844448:

So, you have better idea or we're fine with being able to grab and carry the hostage by yourself to fix AI getting stuck as the solution?

I liked your answer because you reminded me, sry I forgot to respond.

(Rescue as an example)

A thing I would like to see in the game is to get rid of any "defending ai" mode.. it's for the best. Replace them with fixed objects that move on a rail much like hijack instead, though not as boring as hijack itself because there's barely any enemies. (So instead of ai running to extraction we have, for example, a small pod "hovering" to extraction, maybe add other game mode features into it by having us power up the device with energy cores) 

--

Reason ai won't be looked at for a long, long while. And I'm tired of ai getting stuck, being stunlocked and downright killing themselves. Again, it's not an easy thing "to just fix", I've seen dumb ai in games that costed millions in production.

But having us to babysit dumb ai is not fun, and not the way to go.

Edited by (XB1)TyeGoo

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В 19.05.2020 в 20:47, 844448 сказал:

This is for the hard mode DE is working on, higher level enemy only won't make people suddenly stop asking difficulty and challenge

 

В 19.05.2020 в 16:40, 844448 сказал:

Most of the time people don't care with alarm on since there's hardly any consequence other than enemies being alerted so why don't we make some consequences from that like what I put in my post

I think you misunderstand a few things, like most players do.

I play warframe from the times where there were no orbiter whatsoever, and not all locations(planets) were present, so I saw with my eyes game evolve and change.

In the beginning, game was more focused on stealth and careful approach, with no HP regen except from red orbs and no Energy regen except from blue orbs (or Trinity abilities), no infinite ammo (you could take just one ammo box of certain type to restock one type of ammo once). Not to mention no OP room clearing abilities like now. But game wasn't that popular either.

So, gradually game changed in favor of more lax gameplay, but as a result a path was opened for certain combination of mechanics to invalidate difficulty. As a result a clear divide formed between OP meta and trash with certain "Elite warframes/weapons" steamrolling any content with Power Fantasy and other frames/weapons being a trash dumped after leveling once, or collecting dust somewhere in your warehouse(insert meme about hundreds of unused mounts/pets from certain MMO here).

So, developers tried to fix this. They tried by buffing enemie's stats - it failed. They tried by improving AI - it failed. They tried to give enemies resistances to certain abilities - which led to appearance of BURSA/Demolyst/Bubbleboys/Sentients - but it failed too, as it just made certain enemies so frustrating/tedious that people responded with ignoring Corpus as a faction. People just got used to AoE spam/AoE CC/InstaGib being a META, and being lazy don't want that to change. Then they get bored and ask for change. Then they don't like changes and ask to keep CORE (aka cheese meta) untouched.

I saw same topics rased back in 2016 for example, asking same questions, suggesting same solutions. We are going in circles, for years, and to that we at last found one possible solution: divide game in two modes: Power Fantasy aka cheese mode, and Hardmode - a more balanced and challenging experience.

So first thing we should do, is to ask ourselves, what we want from Hardmode? A mode where every warframe and every weapon have a chance to shine? A mode where we are challenged not by Area abilities denial or millions of EHP of our adversaries but game mechanics, AI cleverness? 

Or just another mission type with buffed enemies so people don't gety bored till ExtraHardmode and SuperHardmode are released?

If first or second, then you need to accept as a fact that we need a HUGE nerf to certain abilites and weapons. No other option. Only then, avoiding alarms would be meaningful. Only then ironing out those years-long bugs in stealth gameplay, dealing headshots, movement or melee transitions would be meaningful.

 

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Posted (edited)

doublepost

Edited by Aedwynn

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I must say I agree with the op's proposals more or less. What warframe lacks at the moment is missions that actually force you to think a little bit beyond what gear you take and what buttons you press again and again.

The only thing I'd add is perhaps we could consider letting the player enable sortie-like modifiers of their choice in (ultra) hard mode missions, to bump up the reward and difficulty more. We could even add new ones to the pool (like how disruption missions have pack hunters and brood surges as a possible negative modifier if you fail a conduit, which aren't in the sorties if I recall correctly).

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